The 2018 Trump Presidency thread

[Captain.Heroin]

Having no health care for all

We do. It's called the Affordable Care Act. Trump has lied, almost constantly, about it (he has said it's "dead", "dismantled", "in shambles", a "failure", "failing", "falling apart", etc.) but the ACA still exists and serves to provide affordable health care to many of us. The rest have enough money, or are covered under state health care systems.

Even Trump and a Republican-majority house and senate couldn't get rid of the ACA. The Republicans are ill-equipped to do much, at the moment, as they've been caught with their pants around their ankles re: Stormy Daniels, Russia collusion, etc. and they're not going to recover for at least 10 more years.

and pittance minimum wage in the US is pretty woeful considering the wealth.

Yeah, the concept of a minimum wage is pretty bad and needs to be eliminated.

I hear NK has at least basic minimum needs for everyone.

So do we, especially considering the state of life in the political prison camps.

Everyone in NK does "voluntary" work back to the country. I like that, its sonething that should be done but obv they are poor.

Nope, hence why there are defectors, and people who try to scam the system and die as a result. Selfishness is a basic human instinct and virtue, and even DPRK's inhumane torture of its citizens cannot deter selfishness.

The prisons are appalling and harsh but he country is poor. Heaps of countries are poor and cant afford to house them all. Its a reason why crims get released early in other places.

Wrong, and wrong. Un has the money and wherewithal to use tank/artillery shells to kill individual people in a crowded stadium (incredible waste of time and money to terrorize his own people). He has the money and wherewithal to execute individual family members with aerosolized VX nerve agent. They might be poor, but they go out of their way to make life a living hell.

Wrong part 2; US has just as much GDP and wealth as a country like Norway, Sweden, etc. and both countries have phenomenally different sentencing guidelines for crimes like murder. Indeed, poorer countries tend to have worse sentences for murder, etc. The generalizations you make here are not accurate.

As for hard labor: peisoners are a cheap workforce and yes they should be fed and housed obviously but getting them to work ? GOOD.

The work is often dangerous and comes without adequate safety features. Or, as an alternative, they have mindless, meaningless tasks that literally accomplish nothing other than torture. I'm sure in your mind you see a bunch of poor people working real hard, and contributing to their society. This isn't an accurate picture being painted.

wont get better until the economy gets better and if America would back off that would be helpful.

UN sanctions doesn't equal US. The whole world are enforcing the sanctions the UN has passed.

 

[swilow]

Define "more"? Quite vague.

Effective programs against poverty for example. Better health care, better social security. More protection of the environment.

Don't get me wrong, most developed nations could do more but I think the US trails behind in a lot of cases.

 

[spacejunk]

Yeah, the concept of a minimum wage is pretty bad and needs to be eliminated.

What do you mean? No cap on how little people can legally be paid?

 

[JessFR]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the bit about sanctions just hurting the people.

That is true, and the iraqi sanctions - between the first and second gulf wars - are said to have killed over half a millions children, which shows the harm to civilians, who suffer from sanctions.

This inhumanity is one of the reasons that some people oppose the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) Campaign against the Israeli Occupation.
There are a lot of socialist groups in my city, and that policy is one which between at least one of them and the rest, and the argue that it is better to show solidarity with israeli workers - and encourage them to for a push democratic solution to the israel-palestine conflict, rather than trying to force economic hardship upon them.

Sanctions are humane compared to miliitary strikes though. North Korea is a tiny, impoverished nation which pursued a nuclear program for self defence. It would be the height of reckless stupidity for any US President to put them into a position where they might feel justified in using them - but i think trump has already gone there.
I doubt NK are going to just throw in the towel and surrender to american pressure. Given their history (recent and not-so-recent) it seems unlikely to happen because of trump's "statesmanship".

I'm curious what pyongyang is scheming to do with all of this.
I hope i'm wrong and they peacefully dismantle their nuclear weapon program, but at this point i'd be surprised if that happens.
On the other hand, i imagine that having a batshit crazy US president scares kim jong-un; but i think it is ridiculous to spin trump's dangerous incompetence as a positive thing, even if it conceivably could have a positive flow-on effect.

It's like if you have a problem in your home with mice, and your house gets flooded with sewage - which gets rid of the mice.
Does that make the sewage flood a good thing, because it had a positive outcome, in getting rid of the mice?

It's a selective thing to argue that apparent (as yet untested) breakthrough in korean relations justifies trump's approach to international diplomacy, when he's caused such damage to relations with other american allies.

But anyway, i would argue that solidarity with the people of north korea is a better approach than military attack, if you are concerned about the human rights abuses suffered by north koreans.

There are no people of North Korea. There's the government of North Korea, a very small number of people. And there's the other countries and their people. But there is no actual north Koreans. They don't factor into any of it.


You know how people, and I'm happy to count myself in this, look at did hard Trump supporters and think "what is wrong with these people? Are they so brainwashed they can't see even the most obvious facts of reality?". See I agree with that, but I think some people here are like that with North Korea too. So blinded by their hate of America they'd sooner support a hybrid of Hitler, a child molester and a someone who tortures puppy's for amusement.

North Korea is the worst of the worst. They have condemned whole families to be raped, murdered, staves to death, all for the crime of being vaguely related to someone who once committed some trivial offense to the state. They aren't the good guys. They're not an oppressed underdog. Which is why there are no "north Koreans". They have no influence on their states behavior in international relations.

That people here act like America is worse, that anyone here would act like virtually anything is better about them, tells me that they are no different to die hard Trump supporters. They're all extremists. It's what they all have in common. Trump, Hitler, communists, nazis, fundamentalists, almost every group responsible for widespread problems in the world. They all hate each other and it's all for the same reason, because they're all fundamentally alike. They all have extreme world views that bias them so everything they see confirms to and affirms their reality and they tolerate nothing except the groups they've considered approved. Either you support it or it's the enemy. The irony with the hardcore liberal types is they've actually got people calling their hate "tolerance". But it's the same. Either you agree or you're the enemy. No middle ground. They are all the types that can't get along with anyone who falls outside their approved beliefs. And as a result they become totally disconnected from the complexities of reality.

Which is why they're willing to defend North Korea and consider America worse even though it's a profoundly ignorant and downright offensive thing to suggest. Because in their mind, the US is the enemy. North Korea isn't a player in their world view for the most part, but it's definitely not capitalist and it's anti US, and since if it's not an enemy it's a friend and vice verse, that makes it a friend. So they'll make the most absurd suggestions like almost anyone who doesn't have bricks for brains would prefer to live in North Korea than the US.

And you wanna know one of the clearest indications that such people are extremists who don't pay any attention to the subtleties? When they will talk about how horrible war is in one post then defend a country building a nuclear stockpile in the next. Bash wealth inequality of the US but downplay or otherwise ignore the fact that North Korea inequality is many many times worse. It doesn't have to be. They aren't poor "because they're poor". The Kim family enjoys obscene wealth. They pretend they can see subtleties, because they use it to excuse everything bad done by North Korea, "they're poor, they're scared, they're opressed". But if it's the US it's just that the government is generally controlling and evil and bad unambiguously.

It's all bullshit though.

See, this is what happens. I really don't reply at all for 99% of these kinds of posts, then eventually I lose it.

 

[spacejunk]

I don't hate america, but i do hate america's perpetual war machine.
I do not support US unilateral invasions of soveriegn countries any more than i do russian (or any other country's) interference in western politics.

And i think i get the point you are making about north korean people, but i disagree with you.
There believed to be more than 25 million people that live in north korea, who i consider to be north korean.
I think their lives (as i've stated before) are worth exactly the same as american lives, japenese lives, australian lives or syrian lives.

But as this is the trump thread, i'm going to try to bring this back to him - i don't think he's a mad (sorry / stable!) genius.
I think he's a bumbling fool, and not the sort of person i want in "peace negotiations" or any sort of important decision making, because he's obviously not up to the task.

 

[zephyr]

I dont hate America, just the things it does.

 

[JessFR]

I don't hate america, but i do hate america's perpetual war machine.
I do not support US unilateral invasions of soveriegn countries any more than i do russian (or any other country's) interference in western politics.

And i think i get the point you are making about north korean people, but i disagree with you.
There believed to be more than 25 million people that live in north korea, who i consider to be north korean.
I think their lives (as i've stated before) are worth exactly the same as american lives, japenese lives, australian lives or syrian lives.

But as this is the trump thread, i'm going to try to bring this back to him - i don't think he's a mad (sorry / stable!) genius.
I think he's a bumbling fool, and not the sort of person i want in "peace negotiations" or any sort of important decision making, because he's obviously not up to the task.

The post wasn't entirely directed at you. And yes, the north Korean people should matter, and yes they are just as deserving as anyone else. But that's kinda my point. And it adds to my frustration here. The north Koreans are the greatest victims of the North Korea regime. And many posts here defend it. The posters will deny it but it's bullshit. If you ignore, lessen, deny, or approve of the behavior of the government, that's defending it. Excusing their nuclear program is defending the government. Acting like they're pushed into a corner is defending the government. It's all lessening and excusing their behavior. And they are almost entirely separate from any influence of their population. They aren't a Democracy, they aren't like America where Trump reflects a dysfunction of the population.

There are lots of countries that america doesn't like that they haven't invaded. North Korea fears of invasion are bullshit. They claim they were invaded in the Korean war when they were the invaders. It's all bullshit.

The crimes they have committed are amongst the worst of any government in modern history. And they probably are the worst government on earth today.

So that anyone would defend or lessen their behavior is disgusting to me. What it tells me is that they are speaking out of a combination of hatred for the US, and desire to side against them in any matter that comes up, and their own ignorance of just what the North Korean government has done to their people over the years.

That ignorance is especially evident in their seemingly thinking they are defending the north Koreans in their bullshit. They're not. The north Koreans don't come into it. And that was my point. They aren't, and don't represent, and actor in this situation. They are hostages. Nothing more.

I dont hate America, just the things it does.

I don't see a difference. You can say it, but exactly how would what you say or suggest be any different if you did hate America?

Would this happen to be some abstract "hate is a useless emotion" "I hate the behavior not the person" kind of deal? Because that's just a matter of preferred wording. It's "I'm not a thief I'm a property redistribution specialist". Call it what you like, substitute when I say you hate America with whatever you like, we still mean the same thing.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

What do you mean? No cap on how little people can legally be paid?

The "minimum wage" already is non-existent for contract employees or your own offspring. Additionally, it's insufficient for a decent wage in most of the US, and inadvertently (read: purposefully) driving up inflation and the cost of living.

It creates a slave-wage subsistence where everyone can "find a job", but those jobs are never going to allow you economic mobility.

North Korea is the worst of the worst. They have condemned whole families to be raped, murdered, staves to death, all for the crime of being vaguely related to someone who once committed some trivial offense to the state. They aren't the good guys. They're not an oppressed underdog.

This is the truth.

I think their lives (as i've stated before) are worth exactly the same as american lives, japenese lives, australian lives or syrian lives.

I believe Jess' point could be summed up as, they're not citizens of North Korea, they're Un's personal slaves. 25 million slaves is a lot to hold on your 46,541 square mile plantation, but it's not impossible.

Of course their lives are worth the same. Some of us want them to be free, and others don't.

 

[JessFR]

The "minimum wage" already is non-existent for contract employees or your own offspring. Additionally, it's insufficient for a decent wage in most of the US, and inadvertently (read: purposefully) driving up inflation and the cost of living.

It creates a slave-wage subsistence where everyone can "find a job", but those jobs are never going to allow you economic mobility.



This is the truth.



I believe Jess' point could be summed up as, they're not citizens of North Korea, they're Un's personal slaves. 25 million slaves is a lot to hold on your 46,541 square mile plantation, but it's not impossible.

Of course their lives are worth the same. Some of us want them to be free, and others don't.

Yeah pretty much. Though it's a lot easier having that many slaves when you cut them off from any other point of view better than anywhere else in the world, have a neighboring state that will send them to back to be starved and tortured the rest of your life, and the only other way out is a minefield so dangerous that even though salvation is just on the other side people still take the risk of China because it's better odds.

Not to mention that for the longest time your betrayel would mean a similar fate for your family, their children, and their children's children. Or to mention that a lot of North Koreans literally just aren't aware and don't fully comprehend how much better it is elsewhere.

This is a state that runs some of the worst prison camps in the world, and for the longest time subjected people to it for the crime of who one of their grandparents were. There's no internet. No voting. No immigration in or out. No media but the states.

I really don't know how else to put it, they're the bad guys. This is a world of enormous complexity and gray, but the state of North Korea is about as black as you get. That America isn't as white as we might all like is still no excuse for sympathizing with something much worse.

The part that pisses me off, is I get the sense that a lot of the type of people here anti us have this idea in their head that they are tolerant, peace loving "citizens of the world" types. Defending against westernization and the evils of capitalism and such liberal bs. But in doing it I can't help imagine what some north Korean defectors might think. I can just imagine them hearing talk about the state of poverty and inequality in the US. Now, I'm not a big fan off offense by proxy, being offended on behalf of someone or some other group. But I'm not wild about the total failure to appreciate what you have.

The poor in the US, are not poor. The poor in Australia are not poor. True poverty doesn't exist in these countries. Relative poverty does, and that's still a bad thing, but for fucks sake keep it in perspective.

You might hate trump, I sure do. But when I hate trump, I still have the perspective to realize that at least I'm not required at risk of death to have pictures of him in my home, or that I might be shot for not crying loud enough when he dies. Which all things considered are probably still lesser punishments than going to a north Korean prison all things considered. If you do you've still got about a 50% chance of starving to death. And that death will be a lot slower. I think I'd prefer the bullet.

 

[spacejunk]

I don't think viewing people as "slaves" is anything but dehumanisation.
Their lives are equally as meaningful and valuable as american lives, and i see the bombing of north korea as morally equivalent to bombing new york city.
People are people, no matter how we justify mass murder.

 

[zephyr]

Mass murder seems totally justifiable to those willing to invade because its not their backyard.


Its worrying this attitude.

Countries who have been invaded and conquered would have a different attitude, not that Australia and America have not but look at what happened to those there first.

Lives really are not that important it seems, unless the life isnt born yet.

Weird.


Im pretty sure theres other things to do than worry about NK but theres no real care factor to the American people either, just himself.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It might be telling to hear about a person who escaped DPRK... source

 

[JessFR]

If you confined your arguments to just the human cost of a war with North Korea I'd have a lot more respect for it, but you don't.

I keep seeing from both of you comments that diminish or ignore North Koreas crimes.

It's one thing to be against going to war with North Korea. It's a whole different one to talk like North Korea is just a scared victim of imperialism seeking nuclear weapons to protect its freedom. It's bullshit.

You can't play the anti war pacifist AND act like North Korea has every right to stockpile nuclear weapons.

You can act like you're so morally superior caring for the value of the north Koreans lives, but you don't seem to care at all about the quality of those lives.

You know what I think? I think you're both as indifferent as anyone else. The difference is you're biased against America. You ignore the suffering and argue that America has no right to interfere. Others ignore the suffering and feel north korea should be wiped out no matter the collateral damage. But neither seem to show any real concern beyond the context of their agenda.

 

[spacejunk]

If i'm "diminishing" north korea's crimes, will you even acknowledge american war crimes?

you keep saying i'm anti-american, but i'm agains all war. I think there is no worse crime than warfare, and no act of barbarism worse than military strikes which kill innocent people (virtually all military strikes).
It doesn't matter who it is - all war is terrible.

the thing that bothers me about amerian wars specifically is the weird sense of miltary entitlement americans seem to have - that not liking a country or its leadership gives your armed forces the right to kill, destroy and defile in the name of "democracy".
It's like a right of passage for each generation to have a poor country or region to annihilate.
I'm surprised people think that way still. I guess most people i know find america's war crimes as abhorrent as any other country's atrocities.

I don't think north korea has any more right to stockpile nuclear weapons than the USA does - or pakistan or israel. But lets not mid ourselves - they have those weapons because of american military belligerence, not in spite of it.
i certainly don't hate america, and think it is a bit of a cheap shot to accuse me of that.

 

[JessFR]

No.. The global powers have them due to mutual mistrust. North Korea has them as a political bargaining chip.

And I'm actually really glad you brought up this "I'm against all wars" thing. I very nearly edited this into my last post, but in the end I didn't, but since now is the perfect time I'll mention it now.

Say that hypothetically, we could go to war.. And lots of people would suffer, millions dead. But as a result, North Korea reunified with the South, and one day became a prosperous democratic country. Would that be worth it? What if the alternative is another 300 years of hundreds of millions of north Koreans being brutalized and dying from mismanagement? What if more will suffer and die in the long term from not going to war? Is it just a flat "its never OK to got to war"? What if it's going to war were to stop a genocide that could kill even more?

Unless you're against all war in all cases out of some sheer fundamental principle that would condemn billions to suffer and die since their death through inaction is more acceptable than a lesser harm committed purposefully in the much shorter term. Then you're not really against war. You're against war in certain conditions. And if you're against war in only certain conditions, even if they're extreme. Then it just becomes a matter of cost vs reward.

I think there's a very sound argument that more harm might be done in the long run not going to war with North Korea depending on the circumstance. I also think there's a reasonable argument that the future can't be told with so much certainty but that what can he said for sure is that going to war now would cause a lot of suffering.

All of these are better arguments though than just "war is wrong because wars wrong".

In answer to your question. I'm not wild about agreeing that America has committed war crimes without being sure exactly what crimes are in mind or what level of culpability is required. But I will say that the US federal government has committed many unacceptable acts over the years. But even if I were to agree outright, I'd still say it doesn't make it right to lessen the crimes of north korea or act like you're defending some innocent neutral party from imperialists.

As for hating America, I think I'm just using a more casual way of phrasing it. I don't think we're really talking about anything different. Call it what you like. The point is it's a heavy bias against anything seen as American international interests with sufficient emotional impact as to distort rational judgement. I'd call it hate but I don't care what we call it.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

You know what I think? I think you're both as indifferent as anyone else. The difference is you're biased against America.

This is probably true, but I still respect SJ and zephyr for the record.

Mass murder seems totally justifiable to those willing to invade because its not their backyard.

DPRK would likely choose San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles, Manhattan, or DC as a target. I'm right in the cross hairs sitting in one of these cities, sweetie. Do you really think it's "not in my backyard"? Of course it is.

If war broke out and DPRK retaliated against the US, I could be dead. Very real possibility that doesn't deter me from believing that the war needs to resume.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/06/stormy-daniels-rudy-giuliani-michael-avenatti-570887

“It is time for Rudy Giuliani to be put out to pasture,” Avenatti concluded.

I came.

Giuliani is one of those people who's significantly worse than Trump. Giuliani, Sessions, Cohen etc. are all going to prison. Can't wait for it.

 

[JGrimez]

^ Some say recognizing NK as a sovereign nation and agreeing to a meeting defeats our policy we have been setting over the last decades using soft power to make NK bend to our will. They made this meeting happen with zero concessions of their own. Playing devils advocate here grimez. How would you respond to that criticism?

Even if the meeting goes bad it was still worth a shot to try and get the 'madman' to disarm.
Also I would question said policy of dealing with NK:

We have received formal confirmation from North Korea that it will freeze the major elements of it's nuclear program

(Meanwhile non-politics Trump in '99 speaking on the subejct https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUaQo2j42Y&t=10s )
W Bush did nothing except put them in the gloomy "axis of evil". NK continued to build nukes, test them, scare the crap out of Japan etc.
And I don't know what Obama planned to do but by the time he left office NK had developed tech to miniaturize for payload delivery within the US.. We all thought we were on the brink of war not long ago.

That's a failed policy if you ask me. By 3 allegedly separate administrations.
If Trump is successful here, and he's had the most success by far, then that will paint a big question mark over the foreign policy of all the recent administrations.

I feel a lot of wishing Trump ill comes down to that actually. If Trump is able to make some big positive changes, especially on the world stage, it will make previous presidents look incompetent at best and criminally negligent or treasonous at worst.

but but somebody else did something bad...

It's a more then valid issue actually, and a similar (but imo more serious) accusation.
Clinton campaign broke finance law by paying millions of dollars to a foreign spy who then paid Russian government officials for intel that was "salacious and unverified" (Comey)
Trump paid a hooker to keep quiet..

the initial act always pales in comparison to the cover-up and the lies.

I don't see Trump being impeached over hooker payments, but this may be the best chance we get since the Russia story is obvious nonsense (see why above)

 

[JGrimez]

Quick news wrap-up:

"3.9% unemployment
Korean War is over
Massive tax cuts
ISIS destroyed
6.6% black unemployment (lowest ever)
Trillions of $ coming back to US
Most dramatic deregulation in US history
Record numbers of pedophiles being arrested
Deep state swamp draining itself with over 1400 notable corporate/government resignations including 50+ congressmen
over 100 hollywood and media elites exposed for sexual misconduct
massive roundup of powerful elite in Saudi Arabia in major anti-corruption purge
Netenyahu is being charged with corruption
Executive order seizing assets worldwide of those involved in corruption and human trafficking - the list is over over 1100 pages long.
30,000+ sealed indictments
massive corruption within the FBI and DOJ has been revealed to the public
MSM is now synonymous with fake news.
Deep state is now a household term."

 

[mal3volent]

^ [h=1]ISIS Claims Killing Of Dozens In Multiple Attacks On Voting Centers, Rallies In Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vows To Target Elected Officials, Voters, Democratic Institutions[/h]
Also, where does the pedophile statistic come from? Is Trump trying to eliminate his competition? This is not trolling by the way, there's photographic evidence. I just don't have the stomach for it.