Anyone a fan of tapering off? Out of interest I read an article the other day in which someone seemed very anti-PCT and anti-hCG in particular.
Testicular atrophy is a figment of people's imagination.
Just because testicles appear smaller while on cycle does not mean it has actually shrunk. Instead it is much like the penis or a bicep- when it isn't having sex, it is flacid, when it isn't being worked it is soft, when the body parts are working they become encorged with more blood. Same thing with the testicles.
using HCG just creates another level of suppression in the htpa. It desensitizes the leydig cells to your bodies own LH production, making it so that the hypothalmus and pituitary can be fully recovered and functioning normal, but the testicula axis is still suppressed, due to it's failure to respond sufficiently to your own LH production.
Basically it just makes your ultimate recovery more prolonged.
Best pct is to use a low dose hrt test bridge, gradually reducing the test on a weekly basis untill your own natural production takes over. This will provide the most seamless transition, with the least amount of side effects/ withdrawal symptoms.
tapering is a conventional practice widely used in medicine.
I'm a medical proffessional, and I can tell you that there is no such studies out there that prove there is a need for hcg use in order to recover full function of the hpta in a eugonadic male. In fact, why would you add a drug into the mix that actually causes suppression at another level of the hpta? It's just ludecrous, the reasoning behind it is much like hitting your head with a hammer to distract you from your sore thumb.
I will tell you that there are too many 'know-it-all's' on these boards who go around rehashing someone else's posts to increase their 'reputation' when they actually do not know what the hell they are talking about, have no understanding of physiology, and pharmacology, and absolutely no skills at been able to critique research in the first place.
On top of this there are so many BB out there who don't understand the concept of a 'half-life' , that they start their pct way too early, and when nothing happens, and their balls are still small (due to the fact their actually still 'on') they shoot themselves up with HCG which causes their balls to swell, and their libido to pick back up, and they think they have recovered. Of course, unbeknownst to them, the effect is just temporary, sooner or later after they stop the hcg their libido lags and their test drops back down again. But by that time they are in denial of the fact, not wanting to admit to anyone that their pct has failed, and they end up jumping back on a cycle lickity split, to fix the problem.
This happens all the time.
Hcg use is just plain harmfull in a eugonadic male. I wouldn't recomend it's use to anyone on a steroid cycle.
When the body is trying to come back to homeostasis, why would you throw all that extra junk of hcg and serms into the mix?
The truth is a simple hrt taper - gradually reducing the dose of exogenous testosterone, as endogenous testosterone levels increase, is not only the most seamless pct, but also offers the least side effects, and withdrawal symptoms. Tapering is also considered standard practice for cessation of all receptor mediated drug therapies in medicine.
the use of hcg is primarily in veteranarian applications, for causing ovulation,and increases in sperm counts to ensure propagation of the heard. They don't care about the animal's libido. It is the same in humans, it is primarily for giving the best chance at pregnancy, not for use in post cycle recovery of steroids. Yes of course if you have a pituatary insufficiency of LH secretion, then there are definite reasons for using hcg for hrt purposes.
The problem is that as men age, Lh production normally does not fall off, it is actually the testicles ability to respond to the LH that wains.
Now everyone has heard the 'theory' that hcg causes desensitization of the leydig cells to your own natural hormone. Well this is true. In the end, of course eventually the body will readjust, however temporarily, you become just as dependant on hcg, as you were on steriods, and I am talking of using as little as 250-100 iu at a time. How do I know this? from experience of course, as I was once 'fooled' by Swale's approach but I have tried it both ways and the verdict is in: recovery is much easier without hcg then with.
So why the hell would you even think of using hcg in the first place? Why would you unnessessarily cause suppression on a whole different level, within your axis?
The reason why is that someone fooled us all into thinking that testicular atrophy actually occurs??? and that it is a real concern, that it will hinder recovery. Well the truth is that is a pack of lies. Yes while on cycle the testicles may 'feel' smaller, however, it is just because of lack of blood flow to the area. Same principle as any other body part - when it is working hard it becomes engorged with extra blood. When it isn't it is not engorged with blood and feels smaller, and cooler. That of course doesn't justify the need to pump hcg into your body, if it bothers you, just use a little bit of mueler's hotstuff to the area, and I guarentee it will become warmer and more swollen, and with out the added suppression .
So if hcg isn't the answer what is? Well the bottom line is this... Keep things simple. Don't flood your body with a whole lot of crap like serms and hcg and other things that are just going to complicate the processes of reachieving homeostasis post cycle.
All you need is an AI to ensure that estrogen levels do not rise above normal levels. And for those who think you need high levels of estrogen to 'maximize gains' that is a myth, all you are actually doing is retaining more water and fat, and killing testicuar cells in the process.
So basically continue the AI all the way through the cycle and taper it as the testosterone tapers out of your system, to ensure there is no 'rebound' effect at cycle's end.
The key however is that synthetic testosterone must be the last compound to leave your body, or recovery will be much harder and longer. Compounds like nandrolone or trenbolone that convert to progesteone, do not convert to dht, and bind well to the AR should always be the first coupounds to leave your system. Testosterone -which is indistiquishable to your own hormones by your body should be the last, as I have said.
Now I'll thank bulk muscle for some of his research in this area as he came up with this study:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/...ull/281/6/E1172
that refutes the point that some experts might argue, that if there is any exogenous testosterone in the body, then the endogenous production of test is completely suppressed. This is their argument to why tapering does not work, however, according to the study in order to achieve their results they had to use an LH antagonist, so they could get accurate measurements, of the subjects taking the different weekly doses of testosterone. So this shows that as long as blood testosterone levels are lower than the body's natural needs, the hpta will not be suppressed, and will produce testosterone to pick up the slack.
So to recapp:
exogenously injected testosterone is indistinguishable to the body from it's own, as it is the exact same molecule.
As levels of exogenous testosterone fall below what the body normally needs, the body will via the negative feed-back loop - sence this, and begin producing testosterone to pick up the slack.
As exogenous levels fall further, endogenous levels will continue to rise to a point where exogenous levels fall off altogether, and the hpta takes over as the only source for testoterone again.
Since the tapering process is slow, the body has plenty of time to get the testes in good working order, so no need for the hcg use that dominates the rationale for administering hcg in the first place.
Its simple and it works.
The key is ensuring that all other steroids have long left the body before begining the hrt taper, to ensure there isn't any non-dht converting steroids to mess with libido, or progesterone converting steroids e.t.c Basically, in order to be successfull you need to clean out of all non-testosterone steroids from your body, before you can begin the hrt taper.
Well as I have stated, alway use an A.I. with the test to ensure estrogen levels do not escalate out of control. This is by far the most important part of the taper!!!.
Estrogen hangs around in the body for a long time. If these levels are too, high, your taper won't work, as the hpta will still be shut down due to these high levels.
I recomend .5 mg of arimidex daily throughout the 500mg of test per week cycle. At the end of the cycle, it will take roughly 4 weeks for levels of exogenous testosterone to fall off. During this time, continue to do .5mg of arimidex daily for two weeks, then reduce the dose to .5mg of arimidex every other day for 1 week, and then .25mg of arimidex eod for 1 week.
As testosterone enanthate tapers itself, and the body can't distinguish exogenous test from endogenous, there shouldn't be any need for using hrt test during this period.
At the end of this 4 week period continue with the arimidex at .25mg eod for 2 additional weeks, to ensure estrogen aromatization continues to remain low, and that there is no 'rebound' effect when you go off the arimidex, as can happen if you stop it too soon.
That is all that should be needed for a straight testosterone cycle - the key as I said is keeping estrogen in check from the get-go! nolvadex and clomid will not suffice for this! you absolutely have to use an AI!!!!
Now, at this point if you wanted to try a SERM that would be the point to begin it's use.
Now as I said before, you can use masteron with test, and instead of arimidex. Masteron was origionally a breast cancer drug (hense the word 'mast' as in mastectomy), and was used for it's anti-E properties, and it also is DHT, so it will maintain libido as well, and bind more advidly to SHBG, then the hrt test E, and your own natural test.
I would also highly recomend it btw for those using hrt on a long-term basis, who suffer from gynocomastia sides, as it would alleviate this problem, yet allow them to get the effect from the testosterone that they desire.
I have used it in a 50/50 split with test E, during the hrt taper with good success. - just start off with 50,g of test E/ week and 50 mg of masteron E per week and taper according to the above protocol, always keeping a 50/50 ratio.
Apologies for it being such a long post, but it seems worth the read.. I've had similar views on HCG and being shot-down over it.....
Regards tapering I've used a similar principle tapering down end of cycle because it seemed a logical thing to do... Glad to read it actually might work...
Testicular atrophy is a figment of people's imagination.
Just because testicles appear smaller while on cycle does not mean it has actually shrunk. Instead it is much like the penis or a bicep- when it isn't having sex, it is flacid, when it isn't being worked it is soft, when the body parts are working they become encorged with more blood. Same thing with the testicles.
using HCG just creates another level of suppression in the htpa. It desensitizes the leydig cells to your bodies own LH production, making it so that the hypothalmus and pituitary can be fully recovered and functioning normal, but the testicula axis is still suppressed, due to it's failure to respond sufficiently to your own LH production.
Basically it just makes your ultimate recovery more prolonged.
Best pct is to use a low dose hrt test bridge, gradually reducing the test on a weekly basis untill your own natural production takes over. This will provide the most seamless transition, with the least amount of side effects/ withdrawal symptoms.
tapering is a conventional practice widely used in medicine.
I'm a medical proffessional, and I can tell you that there is no such studies out there that prove there is a need for hcg use in order to recover full function of the hpta in a eugonadic male. In fact, why would you add a drug into the mix that actually causes suppression at another level of the hpta? It's just ludecrous, the reasoning behind it is much like hitting your head with a hammer to distract you from your sore thumb.
I will tell you that there are too many 'know-it-all's' on these boards who go around rehashing someone else's posts to increase their 'reputation' when they actually do not know what the hell they are talking about, have no understanding of physiology, and pharmacology, and absolutely no skills at been able to critique research in the first place.
On top of this there are so many BB out there who don't understand the concept of a 'half-life' , that they start their pct way too early, and when nothing happens, and their balls are still small (due to the fact their actually still 'on') they shoot themselves up with HCG which causes their balls to swell, and their libido to pick back up, and they think they have recovered. Of course, unbeknownst to them, the effect is just temporary, sooner or later after they stop the hcg their libido lags and their test drops back down again. But by that time they are in denial of the fact, not wanting to admit to anyone that their pct has failed, and they end up jumping back on a cycle lickity split, to fix the problem.
This happens all the time.
Hcg use is just plain harmfull in a eugonadic male. I wouldn't recomend it's use to anyone on a steroid cycle.
When the body is trying to come back to homeostasis, why would you throw all that extra junk of hcg and serms into the mix?
The truth is a simple hrt taper - gradually reducing the dose of exogenous testosterone, as endogenous testosterone levels increase, is not only the most seamless pct, but also offers the least side effects, and withdrawal symptoms. Tapering is also considered standard practice for cessation of all receptor mediated drug therapies in medicine.
the use of hcg is primarily in veteranarian applications, for causing ovulation,and increases in sperm counts to ensure propagation of the heard. They don't care about the animal's libido. It is the same in humans, it is primarily for giving the best chance at pregnancy, not for use in post cycle recovery of steroids. Yes of course if you have a pituatary insufficiency of LH secretion, then there are definite reasons for using hcg for hrt purposes.
The problem is that as men age, Lh production normally does not fall off, it is actually the testicles ability to respond to the LH that wains.
Now everyone has heard the 'theory' that hcg causes desensitization of the leydig cells to your own natural hormone. Well this is true. In the end, of course eventually the body will readjust, however temporarily, you become just as dependant on hcg, as you were on steriods, and I am talking of using as little as 250-100 iu at a time. How do I know this? from experience of course, as I was once 'fooled' by Swale's approach but I have tried it both ways and the verdict is in: recovery is much easier without hcg then with.
So why the hell would you even think of using hcg in the first place? Why would you unnessessarily cause suppression on a whole different level, within your axis?
The reason why is that someone fooled us all into thinking that testicular atrophy actually occurs??? and that it is a real concern, that it will hinder recovery. Well the truth is that is a pack of lies. Yes while on cycle the testicles may 'feel' smaller, however, it is just because of lack of blood flow to the area. Same principle as any other body part - when it is working hard it becomes engorged with extra blood. When it isn't it is not engorged with blood and feels smaller, and cooler. That of course doesn't justify the need to pump hcg into your body, if it bothers you, just use a little bit of mueler's hotstuff to the area, and I guarentee it will become warmer and more swollen, and with out the added suppression .
So if hcg isn't the answer what is? Well the bottom line is this... Keep things simple. Don't flood your body with a whole lot of crap like serms and hcg and other things that are just going to complicate the processes of reachieving homeostasis post cycle.
All you need is an AI to ensure that estrogen levels do not rise above normal levels. And for those who think you need high levels of estrogen to 'maximize gains' that is a myth, all you are actually doing is retaining more water and fat, and killing testicuar cells in the process.
So basically continue the AI all the way through the cycle and taper it as the testosterone tapers out of your system, to ensure there is no 'rebound' effect at cycle's end.
The key however is that synthetic testosterone must be the last compound to leave your body, or recovery will be much harder and longer. Compounds like nandrolone or trenbolone that convert to progesteone, do not convert to dht, and bind well to the AR should always be the first coupounds to leave your system. Testosterone -which is indistiquishable to your own hormones by your body should be the last, as I have said.
Now I'll thank bulk muscle for some of his research in this area as he came up with this study:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/...ull/281/6/E1172
that refutes the point that some experts might argue, that if there is any exogenous testosterone in the body, then the endogenous production of test is completely suppressed. This is their argument to why tapering does not work, however, according to the study in order to achieve their results they had to use an LH antagonist, so they could get accurate measurements, of the subjects taking the different weekly doses of testosterone. So this shows that as long as blood testosterone levels are lower than the body's natural needs, the hpta will not be suppressed, and will produce testosterone to pick up the slack.
So to recapp:
exogenously injected testosterone is indistinguishable to the body from it's own, as it is the exact same molecule.
As levels of exogenous testosterone fall below what the body normally needs, the body will via the negative feed-back loop - sence this, and begin producing testosterone to pick up the slack.
As exogenous levels fall further, endogenous levels will continue to rise to a point where exogenous levels fall off altogether, and the hpta takes over as the only source for testoterone again.
Since the tapering process is slow, the body has plenty of time to get the testes in good working order, so no need for the hcg use that dominates the rationale for administering hcg in the first place.
Its simple and it works.
The key is ensuring that all other steroids have long left the body before begining the hrt taper, to ensure there isn't any non-dht converting steroids to mess with libido, or progesterone converting steroids e.t.c Basically, in order to be successfull you need to clean out of all non-testosterone steroids from your body, before you can begin the hrt taper.
Well as I have stated, alway use an A.I. with the test to ensure estrogen levels do not escalate out of control. This is by far the most important part of the taper!!!.
Estrogen hangs around in the body for a long time. If these levels are too, high, your taper won't work, as the hpta will still be shut down due to these high levels.
I recomend .5 mg of arimidex daily throughout the 500mg of test per week cycle. At the end of the cycle, it will take roughly 4 weeks for levels of exogenous testosterone to fall off. During this time, continue to do .5mg of arimidex daily for two weeks, then reduce the dose to .5mg of arimidex every other day for 1 week, and then .25mg of arimidex eod for 1 week.
As testosterone enanthate tapers itself, and the body can't distinguish exogenous test from endogenous, there shouldn't be any need for using hrt test during this period.
At the end of this 4 week period continue with the arimidex at .25mg eod for 2 additional weeks, to ensure estrogen aromatization continues to remain low, and that there is no 'rebound' effect when you go off the arimidex, as can happen if you stop it too soon.
That is all that should be needed for a straight testosterone cycle - the key as I said is keeping estrogen in check from the get-go! nolvadex and clomid will not suffice for this! you absolutely have to use an AI!!!!
Now, at this point if you wanted to try a SERM that would be the point to begin it's use.
Now as I said before, you can use masteron with test, and instead of arimidex. Masteron was origionally a breast cancer drug (hense the word 'mast' as in mastectomy), and was used for it's anti-E properties, and it also is DHT, so it will maintain libido as well, and bind more advidly to SHBG, then the hrt test E, and your own natural test.
I would also highly recomend it btw for those using hrt on a long-term basis, who suffer from gynocomastia sides, as it would alleviate this problem, yet allow them to get the effect from the testosterone that they desire.
I have used it in a 50/50 split with test E, during the hrt taper with good success. - just start off with 50,g of test E/ week and 50 mg of masteron E per week and taper according to the above protocol, always keeping a 50/50 ratio.
Apologies for it being such a long post, but it seems worth the read.. I've had similar views on HCG and being shot-down over it.....
Regards tapering I've used a similar principle tapering down end of cycle because it seemed a logical thing to do... Glad to read it actually might work...
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
