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Talking with God

I won't comment on people who say that God has spoken to them; I don't personally believe it, but I'm also not privy to whatever experience convinces them of it. I did think God spoke to me, once, though with hindsight I feel it was the kind of pabulum I was regurgitating from my peers that I conflated with God's voice. My op is that if God speaks to anyone, it isn't with words.

As to whether it's a neurochemical reaction or not, I'm not sure that's a relevant objection; the same could be said for orgasm, for meditation, for love itself, to name only a few, and all are profound subjective experiences that shape one's reality.
 
CrackAndScrabble said:
Saying religion is ignorance and science is truth is a false dichotomy. You should try not to contradict yourself.
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I feel the situation at hand is not so black and white.

Science has rules, religion does not.

Religion is based on ignorance, just because it is there to explain what nothing else can.

Ultimately, science and religion are ignorant. However, as flawed as we are as humans, science is about the best we can do to figure it all out.
 
Not all religions are based on ignorance. Most western religions are but specifically Hinduism has a lot of interesting and relevant information. Like Ayurveda and Sutra. Both of which contain primitive information that is pretty consistently proven to fufil its function. A lot is disprove a lot proven. I'll leave the assessment to it's "intelligence" to you though.
 
^The eastern approach to understanding the world has always been vastly different from the way the west approaches it. Both in science and religion.

IMO the Western approach has always been to dominate nature while in the East it has always been to seek a way of balance and harmony with nature. Going with the flow so to speak. Just look at Daoism compared to any western religion or any Eastern religion compared to any of the Abrahamic religions. On the one hand you have a religion (Daoism) that understands that there are always two opposing forces hence the ying and the yang. And if either side becomes dominant then you have imbalance. While on the other hand (Abrahmic) you have a religion that is literally about a God seeking to dominate the souls of its worshipers. There is no balance there is only domination. And through that domination you get almost ceaseless destruction. Destruction of reason, destruction of ideas that are different from your own and therefore evil/sinful.

You can even tell the differences in their approach by studying the ways they have developed fighting. In the West you have Greco-Roman wrestling which is essentially brute force VS brute force. In the east you have Tai Chi and Judo, arts where you use your opponents brute force to your own advantage. One seeks to dominate the other. The other seeks to use that dominating spirit against itself.

It is really interesting IMO how much my study of martial arts has opened up my mind.
 
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talking with god = being true to urself
feeling god = realizing beauty in the small things. u know, that feeling you get when a bowl shatters on the ground and in amist all the chaos, the derangement of fruits and glass against a constant normal canvas is something uve never seen before.
 
freddy47 said:
^The eastern approach to understanding the world has always been vastly different from the way the west approaches it. Both in science and religion.

IMO the Western approach has always been to dominate nature while in the East it has always been to seek a way of balance and harmony with nature. Going with the flow so to speak. Just look at Daoism compared to any western religion or any Eastern religion compared to any of the Abrahamic religions. On the one hand you have a religion (Daoism) that understands that there are always two opposing forces hence the ying and the yang. And if either side becomes dominant then you have imbalance. While on the other hand (Abrahmic) you have a religion that is literally about a God seeking to dominate the souls of its worshipers. There is no balance there is only domination. And through that domination you get almost ceaseless destruction. Destruction of reason, destruction of ideas that are different from your own and therefore evil/sinful.

You can even tell the differences in their approach by studying the ways they have developed fighting. In the West you have Greco-Roman wrestling which is essentially brute force VS brute force. In the east you have Tai Chi and Judo, arts where you use your opponents brute force to your own advantage. One seeks to dominate the other. The other seeks to use that dominating spirit against itself.

It is really interesting IMO how much my study of martial arts has opened up my mind.
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Most martial arts are based on concepts of the perverted Dao(taoism) and the more perverted offshoots of Taoism. The tao is exactly the opposite of of your understanding, the tao is not balance. balance infers dichotomies, the sage denies dichotomies and see them as the universe is. that is.... it is. The true dao is not a religion it is merely a life choice you either choose to follow or you do not. It is not the meaning of life or anything similar. It is not something someone should or should not do. It just is. As far as combat goes there is no offence or defense, there is fighting that is all. Furthermore the dao is not constituted of opposing forces the dao just is.

This is probably completely lost to you but if you have seen Kung fu panda Master oogwey says it quite well. "Ah, Shifu. There is just news. There is no good or bad."

Dao te ching poem 2 (my compiled translation)
LETTING GO OF ABSTRACTION

Man has abstracted beauty from world
in doing so he has created the idea of ugliness
One may create the idea of skilled action
and in doing so they contrive the idea of unskilled action

So it is the idea of existence and non-existence that defines itself
The idea of difficulty arrives out of the idea of what is of ease
The perception of length can only be devised out of the idea of shortness
one sees things as high from the understanding of low
the difference of song and speech arrive from the idea of melody
before and after come from the idea of chronology

therefore the Sage separates themselves from abstraction
The sage acts without acting
The sage accepts things as they arrive,
It (the sage) may nurture them but does not own them
When finished it takes no credit and moves on
so it lives but does not dwell


and my favorite translation; which avoids all of the pitfalls of translations trying to recreate the poetry of the original which has lead to it's complete perversion and further abstraction on every level. this translation goes to the core and avoids all that is unessential.
http://www.vl-site.org/taoism/ttcmerel.html

Further more the first "poem" is enclosed
NSFW:
1. The Way

The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not real.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.

To experience without abstraction is to sense the world;
To experience with abstraction is to know the world.
These two experiences are indistinguishable;
Their construction differs but their effect is the same.

Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.
 
Most martial arts are based on concepts of the perverted Dao(taoism) and the more perverted offshoots of Taoism. The tao is exactly the opposite of of your understanding, the tao is not balance. balance infers dichotomies, the sage denies dichotomies and see them as the universe is. that is.... it is. The true dao is not a religion it is merely a life choice you either choose to follow or you do not. It is not the meaning of life or anything similar. It is not something someone should or should not do. It just is. As far as combat goes there is no offence or defense, there is fighting that is all. Furthermore the dao is not constituted of opposing forces the dao just is.
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Ahh I see that you have slightly misunderstood my understanding of the Ying and the yang. I know that the true Dao is not a true religion. Dao is the path or way that we choose I know. But even on that path one must seek to find balance. Whether or not you see the universe as it "is" one cannot deny the existence of both light and dark. It simply is. The Dao that can be named is not true Dao but that does not mean one cannot seek the path of balance.

And as far as fighting. To quote Bruce Lee. "Before I learned martial arts, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I studied martial arts, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. Now I understand martial arts, and a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

This is probably completely lost to you but if you have seen Kung fu panda Master oogwey says it quite well. "Ah, Shifu. There is just news. There is no good or bad."
Click to expand...

That is not lost on me. I've seen the movie and I understand the essence of what he is saying. But to me there is still two ways of approaching this. The path of dominance and the path of harmony. Both have a place in life and you don't necessarily have to choose either or. In fact that would defeat the purpose.
 
Wonkamonk said:
Here's my two cents for your post: I have known a person who did, at one time, delve himself into the Eastern religions, but eventually found them not satisfying. Asking him did not yeild a sufficient answer, but he has clearly delved himself in such practices. My opinion here is, many people may be drawn to what is exotic, but the question is, is the exotic better than what we're familiar with? I would suppose they're alternate ideas, sure, but not much more. I would expect further elaboration on behalf of this.
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Most eastern philosophies are primarily grounded in nihilism and existentialism which are pretty much fundamentally the enemy of western philosophy and identity. Most people are incapable of accepting things like the reality that reality is not reality at all. Others simply cannot defeat the idea that stamens that sound contradictory are not. Like acting without acting. On the surface it seems contradictory but when you think about it it just means to exist. By acting you are interfering with the natural progression of existence. So to exist in your place means not to ACT this does not mean not to do anything for in the course of your existence it may be in your path to do.

the best example I can think of at the moment is why i'm still awake. I could lay down and try and force myself to sleep. But that is an action that I do not need to take. I will eventually fall asleep when it is time for my body to sleep. No actions necessary. Just existence.
 
freddy47 said:
Ahh I see that you have slightly misunderstood my understanding of the Ying and the yang. I know that the true Dao is not a true religion. Dao is the path or way that we choose I know. But even on that path one must seek to find balance. Whether or not you see the universe as it "is" one cannot deny the existence of both light and dark. It simply is. The Dao that can be named is not true Dao but that does not mean one cannot seek the path of balance.

And as far as fighting. To quote Bruce Lee. "Before I learned martial arts, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I studied martial arts, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. Now I understand martial arts, and a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."



That is not lost on me. I've seen the movie and I understand the essence of what he is saying. But to me there is still two ways of approaching this. The path of dominance and the path of harmony. Both have a place in life and you don't necessarily have to choose either or. In fact that would defeat the purpose.
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By seeking balance you are inferring separation. If you seek balance(harmony) then you will never find it because then you will perceive always perceive disharmony.

light and the absence of light are both qualities of the perception of light levels which is base on the existence of light. Scientifically speaking there is no such thing as darkness absence of light. We can measure either relative to whatever scale you prefer but brightness and darkness do not really exist only light energy.
 
Wonkamonk said:
What do you mean by 'the reality that reality is not reality at all'?
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I think what he is trying to say is that we can only know as much about "reality" as we see. All our thought process's are based on past experiences, and any thoughts/actions/decisions are on has biased because of that. Because of this reality is interpreted differently by everybody with no one clear definition. Reality is not reality is not reality, its all different :)

PS (Really this is just the American language being abused, there is only one reality, but you get what I mean.)
 
Wonkamonk said:
To be honest, I found my 'Matrix' explanation very far-fetched, but it seemed that it fits as an alternate explanation for 'the reality that reality is not reality at all' phrase. Yes, I am aware of the English language having its own crazy loops, puns and such.

I've started watching 'Jesus Camp' over at Youtube, although I hardly have ended up anywhere so far. It's pretty much a documentary that attempts to rationalise religious indoctrination from what I've seen so far. Yes, it sucks when you even think that parents would even dare to mess with their children in these ways. I have to say, I laughed at one point when all those children and adolescents ended up speaking in tongues.
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That is entirely natural, most people are not predisposed nor capable of acknowledging Metaphysical solipsism, "extreme" existentialism nor nihilism which was a point made in the first matrix movie. Where Morpheus explains to neo that he is to old, and that at his age the attachment to "reality" is to great. It's hard to give up the basis of everything you understand. If you could I'd suggest you watch everything from the incubation pod to the jump scene again.

As humans we can only define reality by what we perceive it to be. there is no way to determine any sort of confirmed reality beyond the fact that we individually exist, there is no way for me to know that every being in this universe is not a product of my or someone else's imagination. Everything I know could be a complex illusion. But even aside from the more extreme example move to a easier and my personal favorite example. It gives me a great pleasure when I go over to other girls I knows homes and bang them I'm hardly interested in sex anymore but I get a tremendous semi sadistic joy from know that in the reality of the girls parents the girl is probably watching TV or doing her homework ect, when in reality I'm fucking her brains out. Or Have you ever been on your way somewhere where you were bringing stuff, and you triple checked your list and were confident you had everything, so while you were driving in your reality that item was with you. but upon arrival you realized that you indeed did not have the item? and now that I re read your post i think all of what I just typed was a reply in vain because I'm contesting something you didn't post ( y.-) which in itself is another great example of why we cant trus reality or our own realities.
 
whippa craka said:
I keep myself as unbiased and informative as possible. But I am really trying to grasp this. I hate seeing kids who'm dont know what a variable is in Math saying "I am in love with god, and he loves me...", or something similar.
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perhaps it starts with a little empathy and compassion?

you criticise others for poor math and yet your english is appalling. "who'm"? :\

i'm as critical of (organised) religion as the next bluelighter but, while i don't believe in god, i feel i can still learn from religion. e.g. "...first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." seems like a pretty good idea, no?
CrackAndScrabble said:
How are they opposites?
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they are opposites in the sense that science requires proof for belief whereas faith is belief in the absence of proof.

alasdair
 
They really on differ in how their proof is collected.

Faith is also a much more specific philosophical term than religion. Faith is acting on no basis of evidence, but that does not encompass all of religion.
 
What God stands for to me is a different entity than most people view it as. It still has the basic components of: infinite, all knowing, and omnipresent

I view God as the collective Universe, and although it doesn't have self thought in a way humans or animal do in my opinion, I think it is like mushroom mycelium where everything in the Universe is continiously in communication with the whole Universe. The Universe based on the information it receives may change or shift to best suit the needs of the whole system. I feel like since I came from the Universe and it is my creator my emotions and feeling and actions are known to it, and the more love, compassion, and respect for its creations then the more it will respect me and help me subtle ways such as bright ideas, or cue me into signs that I should pick up on and go with that will better my future.

The Universe is my God and I formulated my idea from Buddhism, psychadelic trips, and life events non drug related. I don't pray or anything, but I do meditate on things if I want them to happen and I have had success with them coming true or something leading me to it. I got inspiration from a documentary called the Secret.

I can fully believe in my theory, because it is not only in the realm of possibility, but the whole concept came to me in 2 months time after a significant experience where I went into a trance and felt a higher presence than me that made me feel so calm and compassionate and I understood this to be life, and went on from there, and got into Buddhism too which gave me ideas of how this all might tie in, and then watching the Secret.

I am sure it sounds cheesy, but I felt this all happened for me to come to this conclusion. I feel a lot happier due to learning more about Buddhism, and knowing that my affinity for plants and trees is felt and reciprocated back to me.

My belief makes people angry I found out, so I don't speak much about it in public, but just acknowledge I believe in God when asked about faith. To me my belief fits me, because I formulated it over a period of time with positive affirmations. I don't have to have blind faith in a book I don't understand, and be confused why my God hurt people in one book and didn't in another. I know exactly how my ideas were brought about instead of trusting the word of someone I don't know who relayed what God or Jesus said.
 
Fundamentalist of any stripe are crazy. If you really want to find out about spirituality study the mystical sects of religion. That is truly communing with God/reality and it pisses off both theist and non-theist alike. Plus if anyone calls you crazy you can say you are crazy and it probably is all lies but so what? Hell you and everyone else is one and God itself why would you care and feel threatened when you know for sure?
 
I don't like to upset people do to me not liking conflict so my natural reaction is to be timid about expressing my beliefs when peoples natural reaction to something that goes against their own is usually immaturity and making fun or calling names, and I have problems socially anyways from Aspergers so I have a hard time wanting people to be friendly with me due to not having many friends and always feeling left out. It still haunts me and I have never gotten over my urge to want peers to view me as a person that is fun to be around or cool. I never got the hang of how to be profecient with interacting with people easily especially in groups.
 
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