Taking Phenibut while on Suboxone & benzo maintenence therapy - safe or no?

[SunDevil420]

I tried BDD, but nobody seemed to be able to answer my question. I recently purchased a bottle of "Phenibut XT" capsues made by Serious Nutrition Solutions. Each capsule contains 500 mg of phenibut. My friend would like to try it for various reasons: to help his social anxiety, test any potentiating effect it may have on the Suboxone and/or the benzos he is prescribed - Klonopin (clonazepam), Valium (diazepam), and/or Xanax (alprazolam) - and just to try it for fun. He has been on Suboxone maintenance therapy for about a year at 8 mg, so he has a fairly high tolerance to opiates and is in no way opiate naive. He is taking Remeron (mirtazapine) 45 mg once nightly and Klonopin 4mg (sometimes Valium 30 mg) for depression and generalized anxiety disorder and has been on this combination for over a year.

He has been taking benzos for quite a while on and off for the past ten years or so. He has built up a large tolerance to benzos and fairly recently the Klonopin stopped giving him feelings of relaxation and well being, and instead mostly just sedates him and prevents anxiety. My hypothesis is that his GABA(A) receptors are highly desensitized from long term benzo use. However, he does not appear to have built much of a physical dependence, as he can stop taking them for a few days (and longer) without any major withdrawals (some rebound anxiety, increased emotional sensitivity for the first week, but no panic attacks/feelings of impending doom/seizures).

Would it be safe for him to try a low dose of phenibut - perhaps 1 capsule (500 mg) - on these meds to get a feel for his tolerance? Should he maybe decrease his Klonopin dose to 1 mg or completely cut it out for a day? He has the ability to switch to Xanax temporarily, so he could hypothetically let the Klonopin leave his system over the course of a day or two while taking the Xanax with the much shorter half life; then, after two days take just the phenibut with the Suboxone 8 mg? Or is all that really not necessary since he's so used to the Sub and benzos? Please advise, thanks!

- SunDevil420

 

[sekio]

Phenibut does not normally have activity at GABA-A (only GABA-B at low doses), so in theory it should not exhibit too much cross tolerance. Give the Klonopin a day or so to wash out if you are worried.

I wouldn't be too hasty to go on a drug-switching tirade, benzodiazepines will potentiate each other.

If you are using BZD's for maintenance purposes and do not actually recieve depressive f/x from them then I can see it being OK to take a small dose of phenibut. If you're still using them as directed and they "do what it says on the tin" it's probably smart to let them wash out, or take a smaller dose than normal (say half your regular dose of klonopin)

It would be wise to have a spotter for your experimentation, whatever you decide.

 

[SunDevil420]

That was pretty much what I thought. He switched to Xanax today and hasn't taken any Klonopin. I figure this will keep him from getting any withdrawal effects he might have from going off the Klonopin. Might take just 1 or 2 mg of Klonopin tomorrow depending on how he feels, since he knows that Xanax and Klonopin aren't fully cross-tolerant. He's going to go out with some friends on Saturday and try one 500 mg capsule (without taking any benzos). Depending on response, may dose another 500 mg max. Will probably have a few beers to fully test it out. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[SunDevil420]

Just as a follow up, my friend ended up taking one Phenibut XT capsule (500 mg) on Sunday - and iirc 1 mg of Klonopin/clonazepam (a significant decrease from the usual 4 mg/day he is used to) - and experienced absolutely no effects at all. He was with some friends and nobody noticed any odd behavior or anything. I can't say I'm entirely surprised, as most people who have taken phenibut for social anxiety and such seem to use anywhere from 1 - 3 grams (2-6 capsules) to achieve its' effects, but due to the meds he's on (Suboxone and Klonopin)... well, better safe than sorry. He may give it another go with two capsules (1 gram) to see if the effects are any better. The lack of response could also be due to his tolerance to GABA(A) drugs (from long term benzo maintenance), although I didn't think that would be an issue since phenibut works primarily on the GABA(B) receptor. Perhaps the tolerance is to all GABA receptors, regardless of subtype. This may very well be the case, as he has seemed to notice a minor tolerance to *all* sedatives (alcohol, antihistamines, antidepressants, etc.). Although that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense either, since many of the examples given don't even act on the GABA receptors. My knowledge of pharmacology is insufficient for me to give any kind of guess as to what causes and/or caused this (the Suboxone could be affecting this too, perhaps?). Will update with any news.

 

[Nexus298]

Tolerence doesn't form on GABAb receptors due to GABAa agonism and vise versa. I switch between various GABAa agonist and Phenibut regularly to avoid tolerence. When I take Phenibut with GABAa agonist I don't feel much if any synergy. Phenibut is really benign and is only good for it's anxiolytic properties IMO.

 

[SunDevil420]

I'm really far more interested in phenibut for its social anxiolytic properties, rather than recreational use. A little something to get the conversation going on the weekends and such. What dose would you recommend for the anxiolytic properties (I know my mileage may vary).

 

[Nexus298]

I usually use about a gram to get rid of my innate anxiety, as low as 500 mg even does the trick. It's not something you will notice unless your really looking for it's effects though. GABAb agonist (at least for me) lack the intoxicating and amnesic effects GABAa agonist have which is a real plus for anxiety management without the intoxicating effects of GABAa agonist.

 

[SunDevil420]

Hmm sounds like a great alternative to benzos as long as you cycle... I'll have to try 1g and see how it goes. I've read.that for a lot of people it just makes them "feel drunk." Do you ever experience slurring of words or anything? I know I almost got canned for taking two Somas a long time ago and.supposedly I was slurring my words, though I didn't notice it.