tackling the big issues... should we abolish austudy?

[muzby]

don't you think its about time we made students acutally accountable for who they are and where they are going??

seriously, what is handing an 18 year old kid money to go learn? i'm sorry, but without a good work ethic, there is no point in studying at all..

most students don't appreciate and couldn't give a stuff about where their austudy comes from, and most of them end up spending it on stupid stuff like cheap alcohol...

students would appreciate their cash more if they had to work hard for it... if for every tooheys red / xxxx beer that they threw down (and then threw up) a person got to understand how hard they have to work for it, they are less likely to go wasting money, and more likely to work harder at their studies...

afterall, austudy is simply a pointless handout to less fortunate families who couldn't otherwise afford to send their kids to school.. in a situation where it was survival of the fittest, why should anyone be given a free ride? why should someone who has worked hard all their life to provide their kids with a decent education be forced to pay everything??

to put it bluntly, austudy isn't fair.

if a person cannot afford to live whilst studying, shouldn't they go off and work for a few years to be able to subsidise themselves? speak to a number of mature age students at uni, and you will realise that if they have taken this course of action, they have a better outlook on life, which leads to a better appreciation for study, and therefore a better result at uni..

from there we can better invest the billions we waste on austudy into areas that need it, such as hospitals, public schooling and tax breaks for the rich.

what are your thoughts?



*btw, before i get flamed, please note that this is written from an aggressive standpoint purely for discussion.. i wouldn't have got to where i am now without austudy, so i'm all for it, and pretty much disagree with most of what i posted...... i just love getting people passionately discussing something... (so i'm looking forward to seeing those who fly off the handle without reading this disclaimer.. )

 

[Duckboy]

I agree with you Muzby.
This business with government subsidy is allowing those who were rightfully born into the lower socio-economic classes to creep into the upper echelon.

Australia NEEDS its share of blue collar workers. If too many of the potential workforce have degrees, where the hell is the corporate/professional world going to house them?Not all of them can meet with ready employment and financial gain.
What a drain on an already strained welfare system!

If you can't afford an education, then get an apprenticeship or traineeship.

With the population ageing, there simply are not going to be enough people in the tax-paying sector to support them.
Having a mulitude of over-qualified people, either unemployed or employed below what their education would suggest.... well that is a waste of, say, $10-20k for the average degree in Austudy payments.

 

[hoptis]

I appreciate that you're playing devil's advocate but it's not going to stop people from ripping your head off. Hehe...

I don't think abolishing Austudy would really help. The fact is, for the rich kids, their parents would chip in anyway with even more money and for the poor kids it would make uni life even harder or unaffordable.

Also, instead of hospitals or schools, the money would more likely end up paying for another submarine.

I do think that it would make students value the opportunity to go to university a lot more because it's something that many take for granted.

That said, the stereotype of uni students pissing away their Austudy on booze and parties is just that, a stereotype (isn't that right onetwothreefour? ). For the majority of students I'm sure it's money they put towards actually making ends meet while they study. It's just that the minority that do spend it all on having a good time are usually the most vocal and visible.

I pay a shitload of taxes and I support Austudy.

EDIT: Umm... have I been sucked in? Were you just trolling? lol...

 

[Mary Poppins]

i love these threads muzby

education is one of the fundamentals of society - it's already hard enough with the user pays system in place now (though as per my stance in the hecs thread, i do think it's a necessity that it works like this) for people to put themselves through uni, even if they are deferring hecs, textbooks, SU fees and other expenses make studying a pretty expensive career . We should be encouraging society to educate itself, rather than making more entry barriers for that to occur.

austudy is barely enough to live on if you live out of home, so many students are still forced to get a part-time or sometimes even full-time jobs to afford to live, or to afford some extra spending money.

also - in regards to your "comments" about it only going to disadvantaged families, that's not entirely true (not that i have a problem with disadvantaged families receiving benefits by any means) because if you prove yourself independent (albeit through extremely bizarre ways) you can also receive youth allowance regardless of parental means testing.

i'm sure some students' austudy does go towards unnecessary costs such as drinking - but i'm sure just as many non-students who are on benefits would spend their money just as un-wisely. when it comes down to it, it is their money, noone can dictate what it is or isn't spent on.

Also - speaking from experience, I chose for my first 3 years of uni to not receive austudy - instead i worked 3 jobs at a time. This lifestyle was about as non-conducive to study as you can get....working til all hours of the morning and every day of the week doesn't leave you much time to concentrate on uni. Since I've got ausstudy and have not had to work nearly as much, I have found my grades have improved, even though I still procrastinate like a bi-atch.

 

[m4dd0g]

I think its friday and nearly time to drink .. but ive just enough time to rush out a stupid opinion.

Studying is part of learning a good work ethic.
At uni its even better in some ways because unlike work there is nobody directly responsible for making sure you get your work done.
You learn to self motivate or you dont pass .. simple.

Survival of the fittest is an interesting one. It depends if the objective of the 'fittest' is to breed the best money makers. I believe the purpose of education is broader than learng how to make money.

If its the merits of socialism .. that probably deserves its own thread.

There would be a lot less people studying if they could not do it till after working for years. It takes something big to come along to shake people up enough to change thier lives to do something like go back to study.

Lastly we should be putting less and less barriers to education not more. Ultimately even if mega $$$ are being pissed up against the wall ... its still worth it to have even a slightly more educated society

 

[Duckboy]

EDIT: Umm... have I been sucked in? Were you just trolling? lol...

 

[plazma]

Make students accountable huh?

You know what Muz, I think it might be a better idea to take the same principle and apply it to the government, gosh that might be nice. I know you're just doing the usual trolling/devils advocate/whatever so if we beat your argument down you can just back away and say it was all just curiousity to see how people would react and whatnot.

Great work Muzby really, you have this ability to churn out quite offensive stuff, devoid of most aspects of intellectual reasoning. Austudy is an investment in the future of the country, it'll be great having all those hospitals with no doctors in them, because the rich cunts who could afford Uni without Austudy have decided privated practise makes more money. Public schooling, well where are your teachers coming from buddy? Most of the rich kids who can go to uni without Austudy are going to be teaching in private schools where the money is.

At this rate, fuck Yr11-12, they don't work anyway, right? Why should we have PUBLIC education at all, isn't that just educating all these lame arse working class people who are just going to get deadshit jobs anyway? If you can pay for it you should go to private school, and get a real education.

Lastly it becomes painfully obvious your recent experience of Austudy is truly limited, being a current uni student (who's NOT on Austudy please note). I know way too many students for which Austudy is a drop in the bucket, its fuckall money to attempt to live on, and NOBODY I know can do it without holding down at least one other job. This detracts from study, and ensures that our Universities become 'degree factories' where we end up with a lot of technically qualified people, without the more refined intellect that should be expected of a University graduate.

We better abolish the Dole, so those slack arsed unemployed bums starve, its just natural selection, shit, same with Abstudy, right? I mean, as if those Aboriginal people are actually going to WORK at uni right? Its just going contrary to natural selection. Honestly, what total fucking bullshit.

Its wonderful to shitstir Muzby, you know, but hell, at least attempt to approach it from an angle with something RESEMBLING a bit of critical thought.

-plaz out-

 

[drEaMtiMe*@#]

i'm definitely with mp and what she said about education being one of the fundamentals of society, and that we should be doing everything that we can to encourage people to learn instead of presenting any further barriers to that happening.

also, any lack of work ethic that young people may have can largely be attributed to the australia's ALREADY POOR education system. for fucks sake i (could of) finished university without ever having learnt anything about ancient history, or much about modern history for that matter, and thus how our society got to be the way that it is today. and in my opinion that is just fucked up.

 

[En_warp]

don't you think its about time we made students acutally accountable for who they are and where they are going??

Students are already accountable for who they are and where they are going. Thats why they are students, to become 'who they are' and go 'where' they want to go.

Muzby, have u studied away from home supporting your self without receiving austudy?

The Australian goverment should stop wasting money on bullshit like the military, going to Irag, bullshit drug laws and other crap that doesnt help us at all.
If the government has money to help students then why should they stop, austudy is one of the few things that this government does to support the citizens of this country.

And im not sure what mature age student u were speaking to, but during the 70's students were encouraged to study and received more payment from the Government.
These days its all ready turned into having to work to study, which most students do.

The amount u get from austudy isnt much, its barely enough to survive, its not like the government is throwing money at students. If anything, i think Austudy should be higher so students can actually focus on studying.

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

Wow, no....

Without Austudy, I wouldn't have made it through uni. Straight up.

My mum couldn't afford to give me ANYTHING... and I mean not one red cent, to help me through uni. All school holidays I slaved away in a fruit cannery in Shepparton to earn a couple of grand (it wasn't fun - 6am -4pm every day, ALL uni holidays), but that still only got me through half the year.

Austudy (and working two part time jobs on top of that during the year) was the only thing that helped me pay rent and buy books, pay for transport and keep myself clothed and fed.

I certainly didn't spend it on alcohol... I remember weeks on end where, despite all my part time work (I cleaned fucking toilets at one stage) I still could only buy milk, bread and baked beans.

I worship the ground Austudy walks on. I got, I think, $120 a fortnight back then, which barely paid rent. I don't comprehend what you're talking about - people don't get Austudy unless they need it, it's means based.

Are you saying basically 'bad luck you were born into a poor family - oh well you miss out?"
???

In short - WTF Muz?! :D

 

[gher]

First of all I believe education should be free. However, if it were free then it should be a lot more competitive. That would mean the HSC would have to be more than a mere number after about a year from completion. One of the candidates in the recent student elections came into a lecture last week and said he'd reduce the number of expulsions, and that somehow meant something to engineers because we had the highest expulsion rate. Well that expulsion rate is high because the course is hard, and the others should be made harder so as to not whinge about this sort of thing.

With regards to Austudy, I have a few friends on it and it barely pays the rent. Yes, a lot of them manage to afford parties and booze, but the real world tends to change things. They live away from their parents and have to fend for themselves. Let them have their fun. If they've really earned it, they'll do alright in their studies.

 

[eggman]

I completed an honours degree full time, away from the family home and worked as much as I could . Why did I do this when I could have easily just claimed ausStudy and not working a day in 4 years?

The anser is work ethic, just like you said Muzby. Howver, I already had it before I started uni. I learnt it at home, some by being told and the rest through osmosis - just watching my parents and older brothers. To me, ausstudy was never enough and I should always aspire to more.

Is abolishing aus study going to create a nation of hard working intellectuals, hell no!

Just read over Strawberry_lovemuffin's response and the answer is there. Not everyone had the upbringing I had and not everyone has the same opportunities. In many ways I was lucky to land a part time job where I could get the flexibility to study and then work practically full time in the holidays allowing me to save.

Additionally, I lived in one of Australias largest cities where work opportunties are plentiful. Some people find it hard to land a part time jobs and those that do may only get bugger all hours (as little as 4 hours per week is the rule in NSW for casual employees). We can go further, some people live in regional areas where it is a struggle for even non-students to get full time employment let alone flexible part time stuff.

In summary, dude I hear ya! There are fuckers out there that recieve aus study, piss it up the wall and don't even attempt to take advantage of there chance at a tertiary education. These people really shit me.

However, you have to take the good with the bad. As a tax payer I will stand by and allow the govt to set transfer payments for students and I will still take it when useless fucks waste that money. As longs as there is at least one student like Strawberry_lovemuffin for every 5 useless shits, I will continue to support Aus study.

 

[drEaMtiMe*@#]

oh and gher just reminded me of something that i forgot to mention, in that i believe that schooling should be free. the very existence of private and public in our social sphere pisses me right off. especially when it comes to education, and also when it comes to health care.

call me a commi, whatever, i don't care. i still think it's bullshit. there are some basic things that i believe all people deserve to have equal accessibility to.

 

[Skwirrelle]

I was kicked out of home at 15 and thank god for austudy because I was already working about 30 hours a week (on a 15yr olds wage) and going to school. The cost of having to catch public transport to school and work (which were on the opposite sides of town), pay for accommodation, food, utilities and everything else used to smash me even with the austudy.
When i went to uni, I applied for every scholarship I could and got one nearly every year. They were usually about $500 total though, which almost covered the first semester textbooks, forget about the rest of the years books, practical materials etc.
I am absolutely for austudy but I would like to see them have a little more control over how much particular people are given and stricter conditions to be considered for the payments in the first place. Obviously some people are in situations where they are unable to work at all due to specific study commitments and they would have to be considered on a case by case basis, but for the general population i would like to see some sort of a "we'll match what you earn" sort of thing where the government helps you to help yourself. So if you go and work 15 or 20 hours a week it might entitle you to the equivelent of another 10 or 15 hrs paid work or something like that.
There are a lot of kids these days with no concept of money and the actual earning process.

 

[kytnism]

i dont really have an opinion... well i do, but its unwarranted... the freedoms we have here in australia are amazing... and i dont want to uncondone those (as i already think a large number are unwarranted in themselves eg, abstudy)...

im someone who can appreciate the right to be paid whilst studying, and if perhaps, more countries had this freedom, they'd be more educated, have less suicide/violence rates and have higher job rates (who knows?!)...

take a country into example, the USA, students take part time jobs, recieve lower grades, and stoop to levels lower than us to pay for even a tertiary education... upping the levels of prostitutes, drug dealers, etc. making the markets a violence and low grade avenue (without much focus on study)...

whereas here, your average joe need not work at hooters, or privately, and focus moreso on their studies (as well as partying) and get their degrees, find themselves a job that suits, leaning towards a happier, more laid back society?!

its the short of the long, but im all for funded education... i would rather know that my hard earned tax dollars were going towards some kids education, than some dole bludgers dope habit... and somehow eventually contributing back into the economy?!

...kytnism...

 

[-=TrippyZippy=-]

Y should someone who is less fortunate be denied a right to education?
u do relise the money they give ISNT enough to live on

 

[Urbie]

I totally argee with Muz's post, we should abolish austudy outright, even it means some people may suffer, but I believe there's a compromise.

Use the millions or even billions spend towards Austudy payments on reducing Uni fees, abolish the uni union, reduce price of books and tutoring, Uni hostels and things like that to make the University campus bit cheaper. But this will never happen or maybe the system won't work or function well at all.

I remembered when I first received Austudy, I was still at High School, not in College for year 11/12, I received Disablity pension and "supplementry Austudy" and I was only 16 and received $260 a fortnight, that was way back in 1996 or near these years, because my father who used work for the government and myself found a loophole back then, I am sure they have changed all the system now, but back then I could claim as "living away from home" while living at home with my parents because they could simply tell centrelink that I was paying them rent/board as if I was living away from home, like if my parents were charging me board/rent like anyone that I could have moved out and lived with someone else.

I received the disablity pension back then, not because I needed it, I was given a LETTER by centrelink letting me know that I can apply for it not that I was unable to get a job and shit like that. My father and myself just thought, gee... how nice, lets see how we go....??? And I just somehow got greedy and abused the system so far sometime in 2001/2002/2003 that I ended up got busted and was forced to pay back centrelink over $8000 in overpayments because I received the disability pension and did some work at the sametime.

That $260 I received back in 1996 for a 16 year old was fair bit of money, I wished I never received the pension and austudy in the first place, because it gave me bit too much freedom, only had to pay my father $70 a fortnight for the food, and he was keen to help me to "con" the system that centrelink are trained to never tell anyone this little loophole. So my old man could score a couple of free cartons of beer for himself.

So I had remaining $190 in my pocket, and got free public transport with my pension card back then and I just partied, smoked a lot of pot and drank heaps of cheap goons. Mowed the lawns for few people for easy $10-15 a hour and lunch meal for easy 30mins job.

That distracted my attention to my studies and just abused the system and taxpayer's pension and Austudy, I believe if I never received the austudy and penison in the first place, it may have made me study harder and probably lead myself to study a university degree because I didn't have the luxury of extra cash to smoke choof or buy party supplies, or stupid shit for Sega game machines LOL!

Thats why I reckon Austudy should be abolished and also even if it won't be ablolished, should least applications can apply for Austudy and Pension's age limit should be increased to 18 years of age not 16.

 

[onetwothreefour]

abolish austudy so that they can abolish fees? isn't that just creating an enormous bureucratic mess for, in the end, the same result?

(except that full fee-paying students would have an even stricter demarcation between themselves and the penniless plebs.)

 

[trick_aus]

so Urbie you cheated the system and got more than u deserved and blew it all on weed and sega games, therefore auststudy should be abolished?

the non fraudalently obtained amount is nowhere near enough to buy anything even close to "luxuries"

Besides, paying back a $20000+ HECS loan is a bit of a deterrant to gooning your way out of uni(which is all id imagine would be possible)

 

[Urbie]

I should be more clear, that $8000 I had to pay back was from pension payments not Austudy payments because I was travelling and backpacking around Australia, and working on farms, that is different topic sorry for being off tracked. When I was a student, it was the Austudy money on Sega and shit like that, never usd the Austudy was it was supposed to be there for in the first place.

It's there to abuse for some people if they know where to look and how to fill the forms correctly, and I never had to pay back a cent from the Austudy because they paid me Austudy as long I stayed at School/College.

Like Muz said:

most students don't appreciate and couldn't give a stuff about where their austudy comes from, and most of them end up spending it on stupid stuff like cheap alcohol...

Back then, nearly 10 years ago, I didn't give a stuff where the mone came from in the first place, thats why I said earlier I wished never received the Austudy/Pensions when I was younger just like what again, Muz said:

students would appreciate their cash more if they had to work hard for it... if for every tooheys red / xxxx beer that they threw down (and then threw up) a person got to understand how hard they have to work for it, they are less likely to go wasting money, and more likely to work harder at their studies...

he's spot on.