Superiority

[psood0nym]

Heh. Yeah I don't know what the thread is about. That's what I meant to get at. We're all talking past each other. My post doesn't address this thread or any poster so much as my own frustration with debate itself. It was more of a call to fallibilism in discussion than a reply. I don't feel it's nonsense in the least, but it is tangential to the thread and it does invite further confusion. I was talking about the superiority of psychedelic drugs as a class insofar as they are affiliated with beneficial outcomes at the statistical level. I meant to ask people to describe what they mean by superiority when they talk of it while acknowledging my own failure to do so before.

You're right, or, partiality so ... something's right, not sure what. Methoxetamine, it's a hell of a drug.

 

[ParappaTheRapper]

...

 

[TheAppleCore]

You're right, or, partiality so ... something's right, not sure what. Methoxetamine, it's a hell of a drug.

I quickly learned not to make any posts on Bluelight while high on MXE. Heh. I haven't even really read your post, so I'm not accusing it of being fallacious, but I know that my logic tends to get pretty stunted and confused by dissociatives.

 

[silentcowboy]

Perfectly said.

I think some psychedelic users tend to think they're supieror because of the nature of psychedelics drugs - they aren't hedonistic drugs like opiates/coke etc. (That isn't to say some people don't use psychs purely for pleasure, but IMO it's the wrong way to (ab)use them and it won't end well for them). I will admit, I sometimes have contempt for friends that are opiates users just because I know they are using these drug to escape their problems, and if they did some LSD (or whatever) they would be more or less forced to deal with their problems head on. That's not always the case though. The spiritual aspect of psychs also has something to do with it. After all, the majority of human history has been dominated by religion/people seeking a purpose/spirituality. It's kind of like how church goers look down on aetheists; people that have broken through on DMT and have a spiritual revelation think they suddenly have a purpose in the world, gain some insight, etc and this is something that just doesn't happen after shooting a couple bags of H.

 

[psood0nym]

I quickly learned not to make any posts on Bluelight while high on MXE. Heh. I haven't even really read your post, so I'm not accusing it of being fallacious, but I know that my logic tends to get pretty stunted and confused by dissociatives.

I am admitting to being on MXE while posting, and to making a post that is tangential to the topic of the thread as well as indulgent of my own frustrations with debate on Bluelight in general. I’m not totally sure what Carlqua is speaking to, though. I believe it is a simple misunderstanding of intent. I will say, however, that when Carlqua says:

he is talking about the feeling of superiority a person feels when they think they have been enlightened by a trip, has been taught the mysteries of the universe without even touching a physics book or believing converting thier lifestyle around their trips because they believe it is a godly experience, that is the superiority we are talking about, how can that seem reasonable to anyone?

… I don’t know what he means. I say this because I can simply look at posts like these in this thread:

So anyhow.. I definitely agree with the idea that these compounds are tools, capable of benefit and detriment alike.

or…

I think there is a difference between psychedelics and other drugs - you don't find many heroin addicts or crack addicts saying what a positive effect the experience has been for them do you. That in itself suggests psychedelics are a cut above.

Both of these quotes are referencing the superiority of psychedelics drugs relative to other drugs, rather than “the feeling of superiority a person fells (sic) when they have been enlightened by a trip” as Carlqua is insisting the topic is about. This is the disparity in the understanding of the term “superiority” on display in this thread that I am referencing when I ask:

So, what would it take for psychedelics, reverence for psychedelics, the personality or opinion of psychedelics users, or whatever we think this thread is about to qualify or disqualify as "superior" for our understanding?

Calqua is accusing me of being a “keyboard warrior,” and Splitz is agreeing. When I looked up “keyboard warrior” these are the definitions I found that seem to be relevant to their accusation:

The Keyboard Warrior seeks to use the power imbued in his 'weapon' to effect death and destruction (in a strictly-metaphorical sense) upon his foes (other virtual identities he has encountered on the internet). In essence, the keyboard (ie. text input ability) allows the keyboard warrior to manifest his true warrior nature in a safe and removed environment, from which no real-life repercussions .

Keyboard Warriors are generally identified by unneccessary rage in their written communications, and are regarded as 'losers' by other virtual identities on the internet.

Seeing as this is a drug message board, and we are all embracing our virtual identities because we are discussing illegal or gray area activities, I’m not sure what else I can do but admit that, yes, I am removing myself from real life repercussions in posting on this forum. Isn’t that what we’re all doing of necessity? It’s not the same as a news story discussion site or other “above board” discussion boards – Bluelight is very different. The merit of my anonymous text is all I can offer here, as is true of every poster, and so I can’t really entertain this aspect of the insult seriously. I do, however, acknowledge that my post was not totally on point, was self-indulgent to a very real degree, and that Calqua is right to call me out in that respect (and that Spiltz is right to agree with him in that respect).

 

[Solipsis]

Not trying to make the point that people feeling superior about psychedelic use are entitled to, but just think about this:
Virtually every ancient culture has been found to have some form of shamanism and use of psychoactives. While natural uppers and downers may have been respected for utility, it has always been the psychedelics that are considered as sacraments to some extent. It's the transformative potential that would get them all sorts of awe-inspired labels.
It just shouldn't be used as an argument on a personal level.

 

[Survived Abortion]

psood0nym..... how poetic, yet how useless as a post, he is talking about the feeling of superiority a person feels when they think they have been enlightened by a trip, has been taught the mysteries of the universe without even touching a physics book or believing converting thier lifestyle around their trips because they believe it is a godly experience, that is the superiority we are talking about, how can that seem reasonable to anyone? except of course it would be reasonable to someone who would say the typical spiritual jargon to fit in and/or give them a new quirk to their personality.

and by the way you have illustrated point 2. of your definition of superioirty yourself. but the problem is you think the style you have wrote that post is intelligent when you just wrote a load of nonsense to bulk it up which I think is so immature and typical of an internet keyboard warrior, get a life and stop brown nosing yourself with your over indulged posts.

Wow, that was spiteful out of nowhere. I understand perfectly what psood0nym was saying. If you read his post thoroughly and get on the level of his writing style (without skim-reading or expecting all writings to be spoonfed to you like newspaper headlines) it actually makes perfect linguistical sense.

The point he was making was that - as is often the case on BL - rather than being like a roundtable discussion where everone listens intently to the other speakers and responds accordingly and cogently within the framework of the discussion, it's more like we are making semaphore in a hall of mirrors.

[Note to psood: your post about the echo chamber made me laugh :D]

To address your point about people having mystical experiences with psychedelic drugs, and then having a superiority complex, I will first quote you:

the feeling of superiority a person feels when they think they have been enlightened by a trip, has been taught the mysteries of the universe without even touching a physics book or believing converting thier lifestyle around their trips because they believe it is a godly experience, that is the superiority we are talking about, how can that seem reasonable to anyone?

I think you are fallaciously bloating your arguement by making an unrealistic caricature of those who have had mystical experiences. Sure, there have been one or two "MXE messiahs" pass through bluelight who went off the rails and believed they discovered some hidden cosmic secret, but most of them end up realizing the delusional aspects to their revelations once the dopaminergia wears off. Most of us who use psychedelics often enough will likely have some kind of mystical or transcendental experience at some point. This is what draws many people to the psychedelic experience in the first place, and I think it is a completely valid reason to use them.

Most of us have read physics books, but the whole point is that science doesn't provide all the answers to everything either. If it did, we would all be living in paradise, and Microsoft would be our god. People have been on spiritual quests since time immemorial - it is a fundamental drive for human creatures to try and understand what we are, where we came from, why we are here etc. Science is one of the methods by which we do this. However, for you to put all your faith solely in physics books to spoonfeed you prepackaged globs of questionable "information" which were made up by other human beings in the past is pretty naive. Science is fantastic, and it answers many questions about our external reality, but it is incredibly blind to ignore the realm of mind and felt experience when it comes to seeking wisdom about the true nature of reality and existence.

I suppose I am one of those people you would accuse of acting "superior", and if that is the case, so be it. I certainly don't think of myself as some guru or psychedelic guardian of the ultimate gates of wisdom, (only a fool would think such a thing), but there will always be people who have a problem with those who want to share their understandings with other human beings. And I am not going to stop sharing my insights either. That is what human beings do, we tell stories, and try to educate each other.

There will always be someone with some nuggett of wisdom to pass on to you, and you will always have something to pass on to others. It's just the way reality is. Arrogance may be in the delivery, in the way some people express themselves, but the actual desire to pass on insights should not itself be seen as arrogant, since we are all doing it. A teacher cannot teach a pupil without having a strong sense of self-esteem, and the sense that they have something worthwhile to pass on to that pupil. Otherwise, we would all just be animals running around grunting not giving a shit about anything anyone has to tell (which is not far from where we are, but at least we are making progress).

I guess this all doesn't mean much to those who think the psychedelic experience is just a bunch of molecules screwing with your synapses. But for those of us who intuitively know deeper connections to the apparent discombobulated reality around us - through felt experience - it makes perfect sense to want to pass on any positive insights gained. The use of psychedelic drugs has benefitted me as an individual egotistical organism in ways that go beyond description, and my life is exponentially happier than before I started breaking though to such core understandings about the self/universe. I don't claim to know the answers to "the mysteries of the universe", but I'm always seeking the greatest levels of wisdom, and whatever pearls I can download in to this crazy 'samsara' we are all participating in I will definitely share in the best format possible.

Additionally, I don't feel that psychedelics necessarily have to be used in a hardcore ritualistic or spiritual fashion either. That is just a dogmatic hijacking of a completely neutral phenomenon. Having fun is just as good a reason as any to use psychedelics in my book. It's all the same thing in fact. Seeking fun is seeking something more than the mundanity of 9 to 5 existence. Humans are always seeking to break habits and discover new things in fun, creative, and entertaining ways, and psychedelics certainly provide this, on many levels. It's just that they happen to work in such a magical way, that even those who are just seeking fun end up - at some point - getting more than they originally bargained for.

I disagree wholeheartedly with those who say that psychedelics must be used ritualistically, or that it is wrong to use them recreationally. I think it's hypocritical, tight-assed, domineering, and counterproductive to their own goals of greater understanding (because how can you understand yourself if you draw arbitrary lines in the sand for how much "fun" you should be allowed to have in a given state of consciousness, based purely on the religious practices and opinions of a group of people). But I also think people should be allowed to use them in such ways without ridicule by those who do just want to get fucked up. Ultimately, if you place yourself in any particular "camp" of intended use, you are restricting your self of ultimate freedom. Who cares why or how you use them (if you are doing so safely to yourself and others), just let it all hang out, go with your inner teacher, and all the answers will come to you naturally.

 

[pofacedhoe]

since lsd is completely non toxic.

er no its not- that implies it cannot harm which in extreme high doses it most certainly can.

but anyway- PD is full of nonsense beliefs at times. people need to lose the pretensions as they detract from the real qualities of psychedlics which at the end of the day are drugs special though they are

 

[Carlqua]

After reading this long winded and boring post, I think we agree on a level and I admire you're passion and rationality but it seems mostly you sit on the fence. I myself have no issue on how or why people use them I just think spirituality is dangerous on all levels and should be dispelled and stopped and they do not deserve their egotistical superiority just like a tribal shaman doesn't deserve superiority or praise for diagnosing an infection as the works of spirits.
But a scientist deserves their superiority and praise for adding to the facts and knowledge base of medicine which saves lives and helpes people.

You say to me my post or point or argument is fallaciously bloated but then you go on about some Utopian futuristic rant about worshiping Microsoft just in respects to the answers science may or may not have but what you said was stupid and irrelevant to anything because spirituality has answered nothing. Science does not ignore the depths of the mind, it is under research and is being tested and measured unlike what your unproven, subjective spiritual fantasies can be. I think it's naive to allow any leverage to any spirituality because you end up with hatred based on grounds of religious principle.

Spirituality only has the answer to what you are feeling or have seen (subjective)
Science can explain how you feel or see that (tested)

A quote might I add from an article I recently read.... "has shown that the use of psilocybin (the active constituent of magic mushrooms) decreases the activity of certain parts of the brain in test subjects. Brain activity decreased especially in those parts that are involved in the managing and filtering of information." "This may explain why users often report that under the influence of magic mushrooms they experience impressions and feelings that were previously unnoticed. Logically, when the brain's ability to filter and handle information is decreased, more information may reach our consciousness. This may also explain why users often report new insights after the use of magic mushrooms, sometimes having therapeutical effects"

.....and there's you putting the word information in speech marks.

what he wrote was bulked up and unnecessary in a style to make him look more intelligent but all it did was made it a chore to read and was thoroughly annoying and I despise that kind of pretentiousness in people.

and also might I add ...."I guess this all doesn't mean much to those who think the psychedelic experience is just a bunch of molecules screwing with your synapses. But for those of us who intuitively know deeper connections to the apparent discombobulated reality around us - through felt experience - it makes perfect sense to want to pass on any positive insights gained."

Just like those who apparently talk to god and pass down their dogmas. I will not argue now as I am only young and not educated on the subject of the neurosciences, University next year, and I will devote my life to dispelling spirituality and obliterating religion.

you talk to mushrooms spirits just like our primitive ancestors would and it led to this
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/2...with-muslims-and-jews-against-equal-marriage/

Well put pofacedhoe

 

[Cyanoide]

I admit to have had a feeling of superiority in the beginning when I used psychedelics. Especially LSD makes (and still makes me) a bit megalomaniac which gives me a feeling of controlling things I don't. The feeling then was quite much like going into the rabbit hole, to Alice's Wonderland. Like you had access(ed) places and experienced things that seemed like a much high higher state of consciousness (which I still think psychedelics induce, but my attitude is not the same). Then the attitude towards people who don't use psychedelics (the vast, vast majority of people) was like they haven't seen the "truth", haven't experienced "enlightenment".

With time and using different psychedelics they've actually made me more humble. More humble towards psychedelics; I still revere and respect them, but see them as a tool for introspection and mystical experiences, not as a solution or superior, but as a tool for entering realms impossible to enter in a sober state. Meditation has also learned me that very deep and profound experiences can be achieved without psychedelics. I've also become more humble towards my environment, more tolerant towards people by using psychedelics; or rather not the psychedelics themselves, but the insight I've gained by them breaking down barriers in my unconscious and learning to see things in a different way. Yes, they've changed me and my personality, but I see nothing negative about it.

There have certainly been experiences that have felt very profound and spiritual, almost religious. But these experiences nowadays makes me more humble, less arrogant. DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT feel sacred to me, but I wouldn't say I've ever found the "Holy Grail" and it's nothing I even seek.

As I still use some other drugs than psychedelics, I obviously find enjoyment in other drugs. That's also why it's impossible to feel arrogant towards users of other drugs. However they don't give me a lasting positive feeling, nothing to "take with me" to normal life. They're more and less pure hedonism. Psychedelics are superior to other drugs in certain aspects, but they are no "Holy Grail". They don't offer any simple solutions or solve any personal issues per se, they are tools to achieve states of mind that can benefit me. While I'm trying to quit all other drugs than psychedelics, it has more to do with me having an addictive mind (especially to stimulants) and having a hard time controlling the use of other drugs. However I have no problem stating that IME psychedelics are the only drugs that benefit me, don't damage me the same way other drugs do (again, because I always use them too much, causing mental and physical problems) and induce experiences that are superior to the states of mind than other drugs do.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Psood0nym, no worries dude, I've always enjoyed your voice, albeit a bit stylized for casual conversation, it makes for interesting flow. But that's off-topic lol. What I meant by superiority is indeed what Carlqua described. I think as a community we can generally come to the consensus that psychedelics have less reported risks and damages than other classes of drugs, but that's only on a pharmacological premise. On a psychological level, notwithstanding addiction, I believe our class carries significantly higher statistical risks.
All that bothers me is the sense of condescension I feel often when discussing or debating psychedelic drug use; almost like no matter what the circumstances, they know better than you.

 

[Rorthron]

All that bothers me is the sense of condescension I feel often when discussing or debating psychedelic drug use; almost like no matter what the circumstances, they know better than you.

Which is, of course, wrong. You know better than them.

What in fact bothers me is why the feeling of condescendence from others bothers you. Isn't that a bit condescendent?

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Do you even understand what condescension means?..
Also, why would I intrinsically know better than them??
Your comment just has so much wrong going on lol.. Expound, and I'll do my best to try to answer ha.

 

[Survived Abortion]

After reading this long winded and boring post

And just look at your last post... 8)

If you find it boring to read to through a few hundred words of text, then I don't know how you're going to survive university. That's now two people you've critisized for their writing style just because it doesn't suit you. Poor you. Look who's talking about superiority.

I think we agree on a level and I admire you're passion and rationality but it seems mostly you sit on the fence.

I'm not on the fence about anything, it's just that you haven't understood. I think I made my point quite clear, so there's no reason for me to go over and clarify it again.

I just think spirituality is dangerous on all levels and should be dispelled and stopped and they do not deserve their egotistical superiority just like a tribal shaman doesn't deserve superiority or praise for diagnosing an infection as the works of spirits...

Just like those who apparently talk to god and pass down their dogmas. I will not argue now as I am only young and not educated on the subject of the neurosciences, University next year, and I will devote my life to dispelling spirituality and obliterating religion.

You are equating spiritual undertandings with the constructs of religion and dogma, which is absurd. In all honestly I can't be bothered to sit here and break it down in to bitesize chunks for you why you are greatly mistken on your crusade against spirituality. I'm sure you'll understand some day. I used to be a miserable little atheistic rationalist hater too, but over time that got replaced by in-sight.

But a scientist deserves their superiority and praise for adding to the facts and knowledge base of medicine which saves lives and helpes people.

The double-standards and arrogance is astonishing. I thought there was much hypocrisy and contradiction in the upper eschalons of spiritual teaching circles, but your post reminds me of how the same is true amongst some hardcore rationalist scientist schools of thought. I like the humility of science overall, and it can be refreshing, but the willfully deaf and boneheaded witchhunt mentality you are displaying is not even scientific. Again, I'm not even going to begin wasting my time deconstructing this garbage.

A quote might I add from an article I recently read.... "has shown that the use of psilocybin (the active constituent of magic mushrooms) decreases the activity of certain parts of the brain in test subjects. Brain activity decreased especially in those parts that are involved in the managing and filtering of information." "This may explain why users often report that under the influence of magic mushrooms they experience impressions and feelings that were previously unnoticed. Logically, when the brain's ability to filter and handle information is decreased, more information may reach our consciousness. This may also explain why users often report new insights after the use of magic mushrooms, sometimes having therapeutical effects"

.....and there's you putting the word information in speech marks.

I don't even see how this bolsters your arguement. If anything, it gives credence to those coming from a spritually-minded perspective.

what he wrote was bulked up and unnecessary in a style to make him look more intelligent but all it did was made it a chore to read and was thoroughly annoying and I despise that kind of pretentiousness in people.

Cry me a river. From the way you attacked psood0nym out of nowhere with ad hominems such as "keyboard warrior" and "brown nose", I don't really expect to get a decent debate out of you. If you despise the way someone writes creatively just because you can't do it yourself, that is your own problem, and says more about you than any insults you can throw.

 

[TangerinO]

I love discussions like these. I could add my two cents but there is no need, it's all been covered and then some.

Which is why these discussions are great, they force me to listen and learn rather than speak.
I have learned a lot from discussions like these on bluelight.

 

[delta_9]

I don't really have much to say here, not because I don't have an opinion on the issue, I certainly do, but partly because as ^^ poster said it's mainly all been discussed already. And partly because I don't really want to get involved with the arguments already in place.
I would however like to point out that psychedelics are by no means the only substances & plants to be used in a spiritual or entheogenic context throughout the ages. Let's not forget that cannabis/hashish, salvia, tobacco, iboga, amanita mushrooms, tropane and quinoline alkaloid containing plants, and others have been used in this way.
I feel like people too often assume that entheogen or spiritual use of plant/fungi automatically means psychedelics. I'm not talking about anyone from this thread in particular, I just feel that people tend to think this in general.

 

[Cyanoide]

Psood0nym, no worries dude, I've always enjoyed your voice, albeit a bit stylized for casual conversation, it makes for interesting flow. But that's off-topic lol. What I meant by superiority is indeed what Carlqua described. I think as a community we can generally come to the consensus that psychedelics have less reported risks and damages than other classes of drugs, but that's only on a pharmacological premise. On a psychological level, notwithstanding addiction, I believe our class carries significantly higher statistical risks.
All that bothers me is the sense of condescension I feel often when discussing or debating psychedelic drug use; almost like no matter what the circumstances, they know better than you.

On a psychological level, stimulants seem to be the class of drugs that cause most mental problems; psychoses by using stimulants are reported much more than psychoses from psychedelics. IME stimulants have the highest risk of causing psychological problems. They release huge amounts of dopamine, and high levels of dopamine are closely linked to psychosis (there are of course also other factors, but stimulants can cause psychoses in people who don't have pre-existing conditions).

 

[Rorthron]

Hi !!4iV4HF9R34g

Do you even understand what condescension means?..
Also, why would I intrinsically know better than them??
Your comment just has so much wrong going on lol.. Expound, and I'll do my best to try to answer ha.

I do know what is condescension. Not you, apparently. I do know another word, which is "sarcasm", which I admittedly used. Search it out!

Your quote just means that you in fact feel superior to them, so who is condescending is actually you. And you treat those "psychedelic illuminates" as someone who is deluded, not even giving them a possibility of actually being right. And this bothers you, which is actually the weirdest part for me to understand. Your comment to my comment just has so much wrong going on lol

 

[Carlqua]

@survivedabortion Well superiority is subjective to the person who feels they are superior, I don't even know why I'm debating this issue, firstly you keep calling me spiteful yet you are really getting on the defensive by insulting my abilities and saying things such as you don't know how I would make it in university, for some reason you are so spiteful, you have taken something I have revealed about my life and tried to use it against me in a debate when it is irrelevant yet all I did was throw some harmless opinions because of my frustration with this type of pretentious person I find too often on the net.

Why oh why would I be mistaken about my crusade against spirituality? It does nothing for society anyway, the only reason it exists because of the liberties taken from the freedom of choice we have in the western world. I like to imagine what would happen if these spiritual understandings such as the ones you defend where prevalent and had power in this country such as Christianity did, I wonder than if it would be as harmless as you say it is. Also you talk of my crusade but then I say again, you like to think the banishment of spirituality would lead to the worship of Microsoft but if that's what you think of capitalism and the pursuit of scientific knowledge then go live in a forest, your alternative lifestyle buddies will respect you for it. If these spiritual teaching were logic and truth as proclaimed by so many people, then why isn't it a funded course to study their teachings? because this is capitalism and if you are foolish enough to buy into something then you end up out of pocket and out of mind.

This is all I will add to this debate, I am backing out because frankly I don't actually care and people can do what they wish with their lives. "cry me a river" you try and make it sound like I want sympathy from the likes of you or anyone else, if anyone needs sympathy it's you, my partners aunt said the same ( you know the one who goes to the think it into existence courses) she said she has sympathy for me because I am an atheist, well quite frankly I believe there is no line between that and any other spiritual beliefs they both stretch the boundaries of logic and all they do is fill in the gaps that science hasn't answered yet. Always latching onto ideas that can't be proved or disproved and so fools will always follow and buy the books on spiritual teachings and crystal healing.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

@survivedabortion Well superiority is subjective to the person who feels they are superior, I don't even know why I'm debating this issue, firstly you keep calling me spiteful yet you are really getting on the defensive by insulting my abilities and saying things such as you don't know how I would make it in university, for some reason you are so spiteful, you have taken something I have revealed about my life and tried to use it against me in a debate when it is irrelevant yet all I did was throw some harmless opinions because of my frustration with this type of pretentious person I find too often on the net.

Do you know what a run on sentence is? It really makes it hard to read your arguments, but I'll attempt. You're calling SA pretentious... that's an ad hominem attack by the way, do you know how to properly debate? Have you seen your original post?

I certainly agree with the OP, talking to mushrooms spirits? feeling closer to god? it's just about assigning something to your personality so that you can become part of this magical little world, a bit like wiccans, the alternative lifestyle, yoga and vegans, it's all about attention seeking and getting appraisal from peers so I don't think the ego really dies in people like this I think they just get Egotistical fulfillment in saying that because it's like an initiation into a crowd they want to be part of. And they just love to talk about it online too because their ego is fulfilled and they feel superior.

Of course I'm stereotyping people here, well they love being part of a strerotype, but of course there are those who have their own individual reasons and don't go flaunting it like they have has some sort of spiritual contact to their little alternative life style friends.

Definition of pretentious

Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

How many people have you actually met that have that follow those lifestyles? In my area of the world, people with those lifestyles are generally looked at like they're full of crap, ignored, belittled, and stupid. The people choosing to follow them definitely are not doing so out of some desire to become accepted in any way.

Since you so freely use ad hominem attacks, I feel no qualms using them in my own retort. You are the most arrogant, self-important person I've ever seen attacking the perceived superiority of another group of people. And your target is a group of people who generally teaches openness, tolerance, acceptance and love of everyone and everything.

No wonder you have a problem with them, you are so wrapped up in yourself that you have to point out the flaws in others in order to justify it.

I don't agree with spiritualists on many things. I don't really believe in "chakras", tarot, etc. Yoga is a form of meditation/exercise, so I have no idea how that fell into your argument. Unless you believe meditating has no purpose? I dare you to say that, as that actually is useful.

Why oh why would I be mistaken about my crusade against spirituality? It does nothing for society anyway, the only reason it exists because of the liberties taken from the freedom of choice we have in the western world.

Are you seriously suggesting that the religion is the result of a "lack of freedom" in the western world? Do you honestly believe that? Religion/spirituality at it's core appears to be a trait we as a species evolved to have. Some feel it more than others, some don't feel it at all. Just like some are more curious than others, and some just don't care to learn something unless it affects them directly and obviously.

Your lack of university education is extremely apparent in your misunderstandings of human culture and history. I do expect you to realize this eventually and pull your head out of your biological waste disposal system, but that may take some time and some really inspirational teachers to do so.

I like to imagine what would happen if these spiritual understandings such as the ones you defend where prevalent and had power in this country such as Christianity did, I wonder than if it would be as harmless as you say it is.

Have you ever seen a "Buddhist" crusade? Ever seen monks on a rampage raping and pillaging towns in the name of Buddha?

Some religions are far more corruptible than others. The reason for something like the crusades, while varied and many, come down to the concept of INTOLERANCE FOR OTHERS. Not the religion used as an excuse. In all my experience with psychedelics, they teach -tolerance- and love for all others.

It has nothing to do with spirituality or religion. Some attribute it to one because it is the best way to describe themselves in a manner to reduce complexities in communication. I prefer to call myself a Pantheist. Makes it easy to convey the idea of what I believe.

The "understanding" that we all "exist" and that we all are worthy of respect/love for our differences as people, accepting someone for who they are or want to be or eve not harming animals due to the same level of respect attributed to them, are all philosophical beliefs. Nothing religious or spiritual about them. Someone may explain them in spiritual or religious concepts... or attribute a religion for the philosophies.

Also you talk of my crusade but then I say again, you like to think the banishment of spirituality would lead to the worship of Microsoft but if that's what you think of capitalism and the pursuit of scientific knowledge then go live in a forest, your alternative lifestyle buddies will respect you for it. If these spiritual teaching were logic and truth as proclaimed by so many people, then why isn't it a funded course to study their teachings? because this is capitalism and if you are foolish enough to buy into something then you end up out of pocket and out of mind.

It's called philosophy. You should really take it at your university. Really fun stuff and I think your view of the world will change drastically.

This is all I will add to this debate, I am backing out because frankly I don't actually care and people can do what they wish with their lives. "cry me a river" you try and make it sound like I want sympathy from the likes of you or anyone else, if anyone needs sympathy it's you, my partners aunt said the same ( you know the one who goes to the think it into existence courses) she said she has sympathy for me because I am an atheist, well quite frankly I believe there is no line between that and any other spiritual beliefs they both stretch the boundaries of logic and all they do is fill in the gaps that science hasn't answered yet. Always latching onto ideas that can't be proved or disproved and so fools will always follow and buy the books on spiritual teachings and crystal healing.

You are really confused, still creating large run on sentences which are annoying, and really need to further your education in the world before spouting off hatred for those that you don't understand.

People who believe in metaphysical unprovable constructs annoy me. By no means does this mean they are not worthy of respect in their choice to do so. By no means does this mean they are less important than me, or you.

Of course that's my philosophy. Some people refer to that belief being a part of their spirituality and a spiritual teaching. Other people say it's a "truth". Philosophy is the search for "truth"/"knowledge"/"wisdom", however you want to call it. The lessons of life to help lead an easier/better/more fulfilling one, and of the why's behind it all.

I really wish whatever hormonal/neuronal system in the human body that is responsible for the "I know everything" actions of those towards the end of puberty and in young adulthood exhibit could be identified and removed from our species.

"This man, on one hand, believes that he knows something, while not knowing. On the other hand, I – equally ignorant – do not believe that I know"