Superiority

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I can't be the only person here who doesn't vehemently revere psychedelics.. Right?
I mean to say, it's such a common theme to see, especially with DMT. People act like these compounds are sacred holy grails to unlock the universe. Not to say they can't do that, but what's with the superiority?
Believe what you want, but why is anyone who disagrees with you automatically a brash fool who is disrespectful of the ” spirit of the plant” and unworthy of drugs.. They're drugs. Drugs!
Sorry if this is a dumb thread or doesn't belong here. I'm just tired of hearing it. These people have nearly ruined the scene for me.

 

[6apbhmm]

Imo one of the reason could be that psychs are generally less harsh on the body than most other drugs, hence their users think they aren't damaging themselves. At least thats the case for trippers, since lsd is completely non toxic. But, how can somebody consider change of personality non damaging, is beyond me. I'd rather have fucked up blood circulation and be myself than forever lose my ego with healthy rest of the body, but thats just me (not saying i am going to destroy my body with stims lol!).

 

[Unelmaporsas]

Personality change can be positive or negative. Personally, I feel psychedelics have given me a great push to a much better direction, but it can go another way too - tripping too often tends to lead to problems with reality, excessive mysticism etc, and feelings superiority. Then again - most people seem to see themselves anyway above others, so maybe psychedelics just make these feelings more pronounced as you get deeper and deeper into your personal (fantasy) world?

 

[Kapitan]

I definitely agree with you, I've noticed this phenomenon myself, and I think it's interesting. Honestly, I can't say that I was never like this myself. Psychedelic drugs are interesting, and they can lead you to some interesting places, but they're just drugs. They shouldn't be a huge part of your life. If you feel superior just because you use entheogens for personal development or something, then you're probably missing the bigger picture that those substances are trying to show you

 

[rez_runner]

The drugs don't do anything really, your brain does it all. It's all about obtaining more information and knowledge and expanding yourself to a much higher level (although some people do it strictly for pleasure and good feelings). I think we need alot more of both though as a human race imho.

 

[whataboutheforests]

I think some psychedelic users tend to think they're supieror because of the nature of psychedelics drugs - they aren't hedonistic drugs like opiates/coke etc. (That isn't to say some people don't use psychs purely for pleasure, but IMO it's the wrong way to (ab)use them and it won't end well for them). I will admit, I sometimes have contempt for friends that are opiates users just because I know they are using these drug to escape their problems, and if they did some LSD (or whatever) they would be more or less forced to deal with their problems head on. That's not always the case though. The spiritual aspect of psychs also has something to do with it. After all, the majority of human history has been dominated by religion/people seeking a purpose/spirituality. It's kind of like how church goers look down on aetheists; people that have broken through on DMT and have a spiritual revelation think they suddenly have a purpose in the world, gain some insight, etc and this is something that just doesn't happen after shooting a couple bags of H.

 

[ParappaTheRapper]

...

 

[donvliet]

I personally view psychs as a tool, not as some holy sacrament. These tools are special to me, because they have helped me to better understand myself and the fabric of reality, but like all tools they also have the capacity for misuse. They can help you obtain spiritual insight, but I agree you should be careful not to get carried away by the impressive experiences they provide.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm pro-psychedelics, but I have see other users who are way too overzealous about it. I can't count the number of times I've heard the whole "psychs have no side effects" speech from some people, as they compare it to things like meth and crack. I usually end up getting into arguments with people about it, citing my own experiences with psychosis and feeling detached from reality, or my multi-day hangovers from doing certain psychs. To universally state that any drug has no side effects for everyone is so completely arrogant that it really burns me.

Psychedelics alter brain structure, especially if you do them often or in higher doses. Every time you do a psych it is changing you, I don't care what these people say. Even without having psychotic episodes, I am still a different person from the day I started doing psychedelics - no doubt about it. Just because the physical body does not show outward signs that you've been changed (for better or worse), does not mean you haven't been.

 

[Rorthron]

Good topic.

There are two issues here. First the sense of superiority, secondly, revering psychedelics. The two are not related.

The feeling of superiority has several causes, which I can name a few:
- the feeling of having witnessed "the truth"
- the feeling of having the guts to brake the law or the family and society values and do something unlawful
- the feeling of passing an ordeal. Psychedelics can be more strainful than many hard sports
- the feeling of having witnessed something that many other people simply cannot comprehend
Others could be added but these are fairly common

Revering psychedelics can be a consequence of an experience. Psychedelics often trigger a religious experience (even in atheists) which leads to revering the cause that led to it. It's like revering the bible, the quran, stonehenge, or the black stone of mecca. Some people are able to have religious experiences, while others can't. There may be, by the way, some genetic causes to it (see The God Gene by Dean Hamer)

All in all I do not see any of these issues as an evil in itself, quite the contrary. Psychedelics may provide the ground to many people become happier and are no worse than other religious efforts, so I see no harm in revering psychedelics. Also it is not bad to have a feeling of superiority if, without psychedelics, a person would be depressed or even suicidal in extreme cases.

The issue here is that the psychedelic experience is ultimately personal. One likes it or not, the meaning is in the psychedelic taker's brain. There is no point in trying to show them wrong, as there is no point in trying to convert a christian to islam.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Lots of response, I just made this thread because I was annoyed at hearing the condescension multiple times a day lol. I think it's funny and interesting how it has evolved though. So anyhow.. I definitely agree with the idea that these compounds are tools, capable of benefit and detriment alike.
Oh, and Foreigner is so right, I get into arguments when people spread misinformation about drugs, especially psychedelics. IMO, telling someone that these drugs are harmless is on par with misrepresentation and telling those dumb legends, ”Man a leprechaun ate my dog!”, duh lol.

 

[Ismene]

I think there is a difference between psychedelics and other drugs - you don't find many heroin addicts or crack addicts saying what a positive effect the experience has been for them do you. That in itself suggests psychedelics are a cut above.

I get into arguments when people spread misinformation about drugs, especially psychedelics. IMO, telling someone that these drugs are harmless is on par with misrepresentation and telling those dumb legends, ”Man a leprechaun ate my dog!”, duh lol.

Well I can't think of anything less harmful that mushrooms to be honest. Can you? Paracetomol can kill you quicker than a heartbeat, I've never heard of a single death from mushrooms in the last 2000 years - that would suggest they're pretty safe.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

What any one person brings to the table (their "set") has a strong effect on what they'll "get out" of the drug experience, especially with psychedelics. I reckon a lot of the psychonauts who fancy themselves better than non-trippers are people who who were predisposed to pride long before they ever tried drugs.

I for one see nothing inherently problematic about revering and cherishing psychedelics, and interpreting the experiences on them as genuinely spiritual. The problem is considering yourself better than other people. There is nothing noble, enlightened, wise, or spiritual about arrogance, no matter what is dragged in to justify it. If someone comes back from a trip unwilling or unable to see the good in someone who will never use psychedelics, I'd question just how "opening" an experience it truly was for them.

 

[stormcharger]

I think there is a difference between psychedelics and other drugs - you don't find many heroin addicts or crack addicts saying what a positive effect the experience has been for them do you. That in itself suggests psychedelics are a cut above.



Well I can't think of anything less harmful that mushrooms to be honest. Can you? Paracetomol can kill you quicker than a heartbeat, I've never heard of a single death from mushrooms in the last 2000 years - that would suggest they're pretty safe.

Just because something can't kill you doesnt mean it can't be harmful, mushrooms can definetly take a toll on your mind and are not safe in that sense. Also im pretty sure quite a few people in the last 2000 years have died because of doing stupid shit on mushrooms.

 

[Solipsis]

We get threads sometimes in PD along the lines of 'where do you get off calling other drugs this or that' (not that this is exactly what I think you meant, but...)

Compared to certain other classes of drugs I do think that with a lot of psychedelics there is a remarkable physical safety index (take LSD for example), a potential for personal and spiritual growth but not the addiction and fiending and what have you.

I have fallen into negative spirals with several other classes of drugs. Uppers, downers, opiates, weed... they all have their use and benefit but they can be pretty tricky and dangerous as well. The absolute magic to take from these sorts of drugs can be blissful feelings but not typically with much content. I am mostly left feeling empty after taking them. They are chemical ways of making you feel nice.
While psychedelics can also work in these artificial ways, there are so much more profound implications from seeing the world differently. If some kid drops a shitload of acid and sees everything melting and is only jarred after that, it can be destabilizing, chaotic and psychologically harmful. Let's not forget the dangers to mental health associated with wrong use of psychedelics or latent disorders that can be brought to the surface. Yes doing stupid shit while high is also something not to forget ^ but set & setting rules must be adhered to.
With amphetamines or opiates for example, there are also rules to adhere to to be able to call it responsible and moderated use but you are far far less likely to get life transformative experiences from those that can teach you about yourself and your place in the world and so many other things.

They remain drugs and worshipping them can be annoying to others, I imagine. But I do think psychedelics are special, and I treat them quite differently from addictive drugs I know I need to stay away from. Those others can easily wreck my life. But psychedelics are a positive power in my life. And I can elaborate very long on how or why this is... but it's a difference of night and day.
That's what IMO makes such a difference.

HOWEVER: I resent one group of drug users looking down on others or whatever. Acting in superior ways, arrogance, all of that is most always an ugly sight. But that doesn't mean that some drugs aren't utter utter shit while others like mescaline and DMT feel more like a medicine to the soul even if you are completely right that they are just psychoactive chemicals like the aforementioned utter shit.

Attitude problems I can understand, I'm probably with you on those sorts of things.

And no I don't believe in plant spirits or holy grail talk, that sounds like a bunch of new age bologne - then again if you get psychedelic experiences that are so powerful and convincing and ineffable, it is not such a wonder that it triggers a nasty amount of superstition for these people to be able to explain what happened.
It's much easier to believe in machine elves and other dimensions without further explanation than to try and couple such phenomena to psychological mechanisms and illusions and self-delusions. Yet, the benefit these experiences can have do not go away if you try to remain skeptical about the origin of these effects.
DMT for example, is out of this world. I will not make any actual claims about what happens when you take it but it's the most extraordinary thing I have ever witnessed. It can tear a person to pieces or heal deep emotional wounds. It may be just a chemical but there are few things as astonishingly powerful.

 

[malakaix]

People will ultimately defend what they've identified with.

 

[p0ly]

My psychedelic experiences have always benefit me in some way and had a long lasting good effect on me unlike other drugs where i feel good then feel crap for days.

 

[folding_space]

Spiritual experiences are impossible by definition. However, psychedelics do allow people to have experiences that are so far outside the bounds of mainstream thinking that interpreting them in spiritual terms is often the only easy way for people to understand them, and this leads to reverence, feelings of superiority, and all the other bullshit often associated with believing you've just gained access to a higher realm of existence. This is precisely why psychedelics should be legalized and integrated into mainstream society. Widespread use will help people develop a common vocabulary for these experiences, thereby counteracting these tendencies.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I guess I've never had too many problems with drugs like heroin and meth and even crack, all of which I've used quite a bit, certainly more than enough to have serious issues. But I think my personality and mindset have a lot to do with that. I've been more damaged by the abuse of psychedelics I think, but psychological issues can usually be resolved (unlike physiological damage). Safer than others, but still not safe, I say.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

This is a very intriguing aspect of the psychedelic experience to me.

Anytime I am talking to someone about them who hasn't tried them, I always say the following: "Be careful, they will convert you."

Assuming they are capable of handling them and enjoy it, everyone I've seen pursue psychedelic experiences with a positive passion inevitably has a change in belief system in some manner.

Two paths I've seen unfold, develop into a schism between the Scientists and the Spiritualists it seems. Neither side is wrong in their pursuit, but I do have a lot more problems speaking to the spiritualist, as they have the tendency to proselytize.

Usually it's a combination of both, with one "belief" set reigning supreme in the person's belief system. I fall squarely on the Scientist side of the fence, but mushrooms, DMT and ketamine definitely bring out my spiritual side. On those substances is the only time I feel whatever spiritual feelings of connectedness that I assume true believers of the worlds religions feel when they go to church/temple and in general practice their beliefs.

I have friends who are spiritualists, who speak of vibrational energy levels and chakras. Or speak of the spirits of their ancestors manifesting themselves into the body of a currently living person.

One guy I knew after beginning his own psychedelic journey was converted to the thought that through scientific research into them we could obtain transcendence.

I listen respectfully, question when appropriate, but otherwise try not to upset someone's beliefs about psychedelics anymore than I would try to upset their beliefs about Christianity/Hinduism/etc.

Then you have the degree at which they believe psychedelics should be used to help mankind. Timothy Leary I'd classify as a Scientist (from what I've seen) who believed everyone should use them liberally to bring world peace and understanding. McKenna was a spiritualist who preached liberal usage to return to our partnership societal origins. Then there are others who believe that psychedelics should be treated with respect and discipline, as if a "holy sacrament".

I definitely agree with those who believe psychedelics should be treated with the respect/discipline as if they were a holy sacrament. They are not "holy" to me, but simply an incredibly powerful tool that requires training to use properly for the same reason we require drivers licenses to drive, or conceal carry permits to walk around town with a gun.

The book by Fadiman, "The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide" is a good book to read to learn how trip safely/positive and train sitters how to handle the experience. Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan series, despite the very "spiritualist" theme, is very good at showing how and why training in the use of psychedelics is wise.

Even if all psychedelics were to lose their scheduled status, I would fully support any effort to add -reasonable- restrictions on their availability. I think one should be taught about them, and guided in their use with a trained sitter, before being legally allowed to pursue them on their own without supervision.

And knowing the psychedelic user base and their general culture... it's very likely many of the authorized guides would do the service for free. I know I would.

Psychedelics are amazing... but to me they are simply a tool. A very powerful one that must be used with care and respect.