suicide- whats the big deal.

[dhcdavid]

Actually, it's a permanent solution to ALL of your problems, present and future.

The temporary statement is also bullshit, some of us have been dealing with the same couple of problems for our entire lives, clinging on in vain to honeyed words we hear that "things will get better eventually" though they never do.

Come on BL, I expect better from you guys than to try to smother us with platitudes.

I definitely know the feeling. Though whenever I got to the point of trying I haven't had the willpower to go through with it (obviously, I'm not the type to fuck it up).

SO well put.

Bluelight must retain its broad spectrum of views and beliefs, IMHO, if it is to remain the same wonderful and unique spot that most members know it is: a forum where everyone is welcome to their beliefs - and obviously to the right to express those beliefs - so long as the expression of those beliefs wouldn't make a bunch of normal, intelliegent, human beings feel grossly offended insofar as nothing homophobic, racist, xenophobic or anything else which would be viewed as an aggravating circumstance (i.e. it would constitute a hate crime) had been expressed on these boards.

Outside of these pretty simple to understand parameters here on BL....? Anything goes. And Fridgebuzz: please try iin future to refrain from personally attacking another BLer's right to express their beliefs on suicide: I mean, afterall, we do find ourselves here deep inside a discussion thread with "suicide" in the title. within the broader confines of the "Philosophy & Spirituality" forum. To close, fridgebuzz, I'd urge you to turn the statement "Everyone isn't like you" around 360 and onto yourself and ensure that the focus stays there. Thankyou my friend.

 

[hiphophippy]

Actually, it's a permanent solution to ALL of your problems, present and future.

The temporary statement is also bullshit, some of us have been dealing with the same couple of problems for our entire lives, clinging on in vain to honeyed words we hear that "things will get better eventually" though they never do.

Come on BL, I expect better from you guys than to try to smother us with platitudes.




I definitely know the feeling. Though whenever I got to the point of trying I haven't had the willpower to go through with it (obviously, I'm not the type to fuck it up).

I feel like the ground has been broken and I can now include my two cents.

I personally don't feel it's a big deal either, I've been suicidal since i was 7 or 8. I just choose not to kill myself because I don't want it to affect my little sisters. but it's seriously your life and it should be one's own choice. If i'm ever paralyzed or maimed in some god awful way I really won't hesitate to. I make a point to regularly bring up to my mom that if I succumb to some disease or whatever that kills or almost kills me to sign a do not resuscitate.

And yeah, I expected a lot more existentialism and developed philosophies from everyone here.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

Well, I'm always in favor of choice. Not that it matters. It's not like anyone's opinions on "choice" really affects anything seeing as how choice is the only freedom we really have.

You can read something to say your choices might be the inevitable product of natural laws playing out, but seriously, if we want to talk about falsafiability there's really no way to ever prove that free-will exists within the physical systems of our body, so it shouldn't even be a scientific question in the first place, although I don't think it shouldn't be explored scientifically because it's one avenue of getting at the truth. And just reading something about psychology shouldn't ever affect your life-altering decisions seeing as how it's not a hard science and even if it was, all the theories can be shown to be false with a few bits of as-yet undiscovered evidence.

Now here's a bit of pseudo-science, I suppose, or maybe it's just an idea that has yet to be proven, but I think there's some middle ground in between total quantum randomness and total Einsteinian determinism that allows for free-will, yet it must take into account the natural consequences in order to be free and viable. The fact that the two valid theories have yet to be unified sufficiently is reason to believe that I'm not going to base my life philosophy on the narrow opinions of some expert.

Existentially speaking? You life is exactly what you make of it, so yes, you can be anything you want, and do anything you want, but, obviously, you have to take into account external and environmental factors, and certainly the amount of money you have plays a large part in how easy you get by. Money is such a sinister thing in this day and age because you have people who simply believe in paper, and those are usually the ones making the decisions that can alter your life the most. The paper people, i.e. diplomas, bank accounts, awards, limited ideologies, etc. Then there's the ubiquity of screens which is enough to drive anyone crazy with all these callous, sarcastic, new reporters and tragedies and commercials and constant chatter and noise.

But the world is so much bigger than that, if you just change your direction slightly, even taking a walk outside when you feel particularly depressed, you can do yourself a world of good. Despair and grief can act as a motor or as some breaks, for many people, with all the paper and plastic and screens filling the air, they despair themselves into paralysis, but it takes some effort to shrug off the inertia of the past and get a move on with living your life.

I think whoever said happiness was about setting and accomplishing goals was definitely onto something. How often do people get depressed when they are striving towards something and making real gains towards their end? Even the smallest goals are valuable, and even the slowest progress is beneficial. What makes you say you can't do anything you want to do? Within reason, of course, because everyone has mental and physical limitations of some kind or another, but, more often than not, their biggest limitations are the ones of their own choosing. That's what I mean when I say the mindset of a suicidal person is necessarily limited, and why would you base a major life decision on limited, possibly faulty logic?

I guess you are right when you say that it's not just the end of the temporary problems, but of all future problems as well, but, I mean, you got to have a basic level of toughness to survive, if you aren't a survivor, then the cruelness of the world, and it is very cruel, to be sure, would probably grind you down to a pulp anyway.

I guess the point is....nothing really changes, only attitudes change, and, if you can't ever gain the attitude of enjoying life, then you might as well end the misery, but it's too easy, and there's too many traps to get people depressed in this day and age that I wish people would just look around them more and expand their minds a bit. Not talking about taking acid either...although there's nothing wrong with that necessarily...just seeing that there's more to life than any of the bullshit you think you have to put up with.

 

[itsok]

^ agreed, attitude is the real disability. but i am concerned w the importance of goal setting. i always feel like i am pretending to give a shit when i know inside id rather be blasted out of my mind psychedelically, on opiates, dissociatives, or not alive. and this is after months of sober time.

if i still feel like this after ten years, then i will gas myself or shoot myself.

and i really think ppl move on and everyone is replaceable. very rarely do humans have such a connection that if one person dies the other dies of loneliness. usually ppl find something else to fill the emotional void.

 

[n3ophy7e]

ppl move on, they always do. if someone is in pain, or if his/her being alive causes alot of pain, then why cant they just go?

tons of ppl die all the time. so what if i decide to go? consider it psychological euthanasia for community/familial reasons. what if i had my family and close friends blessing bc they see how much pain i was in. would i get BL's blessing too or is it just not the socially acceptable thing to say?

suppose i have no goals and feel no excitement, no matter how good i have it and what i have. and suppose i tried everyone's remedies at a happy life for like 2 decades, could i get excused then?

ppl say life is sacred and say ppl will be sad and I think they'll be sad for a little while and then move on bc they have to deal with life. see in order to functionally live, u have to let go.

itsok, I'm just quoting a few of your points here but am really addressing your whole post. I think it's good that you're addressing this issue because suicide is still far too taboo and it's something I think we should all be more comfortable talking about.

My main problem with suicide is that people in fact DO NOT move on. As much as you might tell yourself that people wouldn't be that affected by you taking your own life, I'm telling you right now that your loved ones will NEVER get over it. I've seen first-hand and read countless accounts of how suicide completely destroys the lives of the people left behind. People who could be classified as "acquaintances" or friends-of-friends will move on, sure. But your family, close friends and relatives never get over it. Whilst I may understand your family's desperation at where you're at with your addiction etc, I dont know why your parents would tell you to kill yourself. Perhaps its their messed up way of dealing with the situation, perhaps its a bit of tough-love or designed to kinda scare you straight, I have no idea. But either way it is very wrong of them to say that to you, AND I don't believe that for one second they wouldn't be completely devastated if you did it. I appreciate that everyone has a right to decide what they do, so I'm not for one second saying that people shouldn't feel free to decide to end their life. But as social creatures we need to consider the effect that our actions have on our loved ones.

Sure, thousands of people die every single day. But there is a huge difference between someone dying from natural or accidental causes, and someone dying from their own hand. It's because in the vast majority of cases, suicide IS preventable, which is the reason why the people left behind constantly and painstakingly question themselves, thinking in retrospect if there was anything they could've done to help etc. That is my other main issue with suicide, that if only the person would reach out for help and get the support and assistance they need, they can get through whatever hardships they're facing and be stronger at the end, instead of the opposite and not even being around at all anymore.

If you honestly had the blessing of all of your loved ones to take your own life, then so be it. But I think you may be surprised at how many people would actually give such a blessing to someone they love who is suffering with resolvable issues.

itsok, you say that you don't have any goals, perhaps if you thought of one or two things that you would like to achieve in the next 3-6 months, that might give you a bit of hope and something to work towards. We are very goal-oriented creatures so it's not surprising that you're feeling a bit lost without any plans for even your immediate future. If you wanna talk more one-on-one about working out some goals for you, please feel free to PM me any time. I am more than happy to help out.

Take care

Actually, it's a permanent solution to ALL of your problems, present and future.

The temporary statement is also bullshit, some of us have been dealing with the same couple of problems for our entire lives, clinging on in vain to honeyed words we hear that "things will get better eventually" though they never do.

Whilst I definitely appreciate what you're getting NKB and I totally respect your opinion, I still firmly believe that the vast majority of psychological/physical/medical problems that cause suicidal ideation can be treated in some way. Sometimes it's a frustrating and seemingly endless task to find out what the best method of treatment is for one person's problems, but if it means that they can come out the other end of the dark tunnel and feel happy again and enjoy more of their precious time on this planet, then I think it's worth the temporary pain and suffering to get there. Personally, I really do appreciate every moment I get to live in this universe, filling my brain with as much knowledge as possible and experiencing different thoughts, feelings, trials, tribulations, life events etc etc, that I honestly believe it is a waste to voluntarily cut that time short.

disclaimer: I have actually been suicidal many times in my life so the above paragraph is not coming from someone who doesn't know how dark the mind can get...even though it might read that way

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I think your views on social behavior and reality in general are totally delusional.

You can't understand the effects of your suicide on others because you're unable to see past yourself. Everyone isn't like you. Don't neglect them because you can't get over yourself. Start building relationships to gain a greater appreciation of other's outlooks.

I'll admit I may have been engaging in a little bit of hyperbole, but what I said is true, just because things change for post people/are fixable, statistically speaking there are people who just get completely fucked forever on chance.

I have no close relationships, so there isn't anyone I have to worry about affecting! And I do make efforts at building relationships on occasion, it just has yet to work out.

Personally, I really do appreciate every moment I get to live in this universe, filling my brain with as much knowledge as possible and experiencing different thoughts, feelings, trials, tribulations, life events etc etc, that I honestly believe it is a waste to voluntarily cut that time short.

I haven't regretted living as long as I have yet!

To no one in particular: I am a person, not a robot, and life circumstances/continuous failure WILL affect the way I think about things. So to folks saying it's an attitude problem, yes, but knowing that, and even changing that attitude sometimes does not mean it will stay changed long enough to make any headway. Some people are just fragile, like glass, and even if they can tape themselves together through sheer willpower sometimes, the stress can very well end up breaking them again before they're able to get to a place stable enough to sustain them, and allow them to build upon themselves.

 

[Jblazingphoenix100]

Ultimately, it's your decision whether you want to be on this earth.

But let me say this - strive to be better than yourself.

You're depressed and you see suicide being your only option out of your intense misery??

Stop being so bloody selfish! Imagine how many people in your lifetime you have unknowingly touched, for better or for worse, and the effects your killing yourself, or even attempting to do it, would have on them and their psyches.

You say people cause each other pain - yes that's true, and you want to inflict it on others? Do you really want to do that?

I don't think so...and if so, strive to change those negative, yet natural and ugly feelings.

THere is dark and light here within all of us - but you must choose the light, dude! THis life can be so sweet, if you just change the way you see things!!

See the light at the endof the tunnel, and make that tunnel be a dark time in your life, not the coils of death.

Jazzhands - I like your paradox of survival. Love it!

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

To no one in particular: I am a person, not a robot, and life circumstances/continuous failure WILL affect the way I think about things. So to folks saying it's an attitude problem, yes, but knowing that, and even changing that attitude sometimes does not mean it will stay changed long enough to make any headway. Some people are just fragile, like glass, and even if they can tape themselves together through sheer willpower sometimes, the stress can very well end up breaking them again before they're able to get to a place stable enough to sustain them, and allow them to build upon themselves.

Agreed, some people can't handle the world and people in general, that doesn't mean it's any less sad if/when they do the inevitable. I guess it depends on the attitude one adapts.

I went from being a total atheist to craving spiritual fulfillment, when in fact I needed it all along, and when I rejected god I didn't entirely know what I was rejecting, but then I found that higher powers can come in many different forms and you don't need a monotheistic interpretation, or anyone's interpretation really. Also, the change from taking everything in the world too literally and logically, and accepting a healthy amount of skepticism in the world and existence over all, putting logic in it's rightful place in my mind. I think it's almost inevitable for an unprepared mind to review many basic facts about our society to think about how fucked up the bigger picture really looks, and they have every right to go insane. It seems like the higher IQ you have the more easily depressed you can get, which indicates that just sheer intelligence and logical thinking isn't 100% healthy. There are things that I can take with me to remind myself that it's no good just believing the things you read and see, and it softens the blow of the harshness of the arbitrary reality we all seem to live in.

Science isn't even 100% certain if the world we live in is real, that's an encouraging thought that paves the way for all other encouraging thoughts, at least it does for me. Pure logic has it's limitations and needs to be tempered with love, or compassion, or other forms of irrational thinking. You might not literally be able to be anything and everything you want to be, but the attitude of giving up before even trying is more debilitating than anything else.

That's the thing about suicidal thinking is that a person gives up living and growing far earlier than they choose to actually kill themselves because all the facts of the matter seem to point to the inevitable logic of simply ending the pain now, it's like a perverted buddhism with no goals or striving only it's a hopeless and exasperated "what's the point?!?" instead of a calm and certain "there is no point" with a wry grin.

EDIT: I think the point that I'm getting at is something regarding learning how to live artistically rather than statistically/scientifically, and it's a mindset that many people never find themselves able to realize, but there's no reason you can't live how you want to live and that you have to conform to a certain set of arbitrary findings(these statistics you speak of) that are merely descriptive happenstance and not prescriptions on how one's life must go. If a certain way of thinking has led you down a dark path, then why hang onto it? Letting go of habits of the mind is hard, but it's pointless to stick with a train of thoughts which empties you of your joy of living, and thinking those conclusions are the only ones possible to draw.

I guess I haven't lived with suicidal thoughts long enough, but I was trapped in a prison of despair for at least 4-5 years during the height of opiate addiction, loss of loved ones, heartache, and lots of physical illness, and changing my thinking didn't come overnight, but it came, and life is disappointing to a large degree still, but I have room enough in my mind to place its disappointments in context and not get existentially bothered by things going wrong and most people being poor friends to a large degree. I guess that'd be my advice to suicidal people, especially younger people who feel so trapped. My heart goes out to all those suffering, though.

 

[CrackAndScrabble]

There is some particularly deep graffiti on an dilapidated bridge near me. It says "It won't be without your existence."

Thats my response to whats the big deal with suicide. I'm not offering any ethical answer because arguing ethics is like arguing about art.

Just know that nothing can be without you.

 

[herbavore]

To no one in particular: I am a person, not a robot, and life circumstances/continuous failure WILL affect the way I think about things. So to folks saying it's an attitude problem, yes, but knowing that, and even changing that attitude sometimes does not mean it will stay changed long enough to make any headway. Some people are just fragile, like glass, and even if they can tape themselves together through sheer willpower sometimes, the stress can very well end up breaking them again before they're able to get to a place stable enough to sustain them, and allow them to build upon themselves.

This is the heart of the matter. While I believe with all my heart and mind that it is within everyone's power to connect with that larger force that can not only sustain us but makes life both precious and divine, I am all too aware of the inequities in our innate ability to do this. In my immediate family there are people that came into this world with the ability to weather trauma, to see challenge as opposed to obstacle, to take failures as road-maps rather than stopping points. My 82 year old mother is one of those people as is my 23 year old son. On the other hand, my brother, sister and deceased son and I were seemingly cut from different cloth. All of us have had the same level of hardship. The irony to me is that those who are naturally more resilient end up living easier lives under the same external circumstances because they don't heap all sorts of self-defeating adaptations on top of difficulties--like drug abuse and addiction for example, or habitual negative thinking. I have spent my whole life fascinated by the different starting points we land on from the moment of birth onward.

Having a son so similar to myself changed everything for me. Knowing that he dealt with extreme moods that he could not control from an early age I began to look back at my own journey searching for what had helped me to not become someone that relied on a drug to change my experience. What I arrived at was that it was art that had made all the difference.Being an artist of any kind (visual, musical, dramatic, movement, writing) connects you deeply to the intangible part of life. It gives you an automatic hold when everything else falls apart. It is like an umbilical cord that is never severed from whatever larger reality we came from and will return into. So even though I was born one of the people "made of glass" that Neverknows so beautifully describes, I feel like I lucked out in the DNA lottery by coming into life with this aspect to myself that always feels firm when everything else turns to jelly. But here is yet another complication--my son was a very creative and talented artist (his brother for whom life is so much more manageable has many other strengths but is not artistic) and yet his anxiety disorder played out in a perfectionism that was totally disabling and paralyzing to him to the point that art was virtually inaccessible to him. Again, the inequities of what each of us has to contend with.

Losing my son to his own despair brought me to the brink of a despair as deep as his. I am still standing on that edge a good part of every day and night. While I have not been able to paint since he died I do still feel what is underneath the painting which is an irrepressible love of beauty which does rein me in many small delicious and nurturing moments. But what has helped me more than anything has been my study and practice of mindfulness and meditation as taught by the philosophy of Buddhism. Ironically, my son cited his initial forays into Buddhist meditation as the most promising thing he had come across to deal with his own mind, shortly before he died. The religion of Buddhism does not draw me in. I'm not one for rituals or legends or miracles or even the concept of attaining "enlightenment". I just find the practice of embracing pain and suffering rather than running from it or trying to deny it or cover it up to be the most revolutionary daily practice I have come across. And, paradoxically, the facing of pain and suffering, the total willingness to sit with it, has alleviated it more effectively than anything.

 

[ted716]

To me suicide is a selfish way out. I just attended 2 wakes and the funeral of one of my best friends from high school. He had a new wife and baby ... friends and family who depended on him. Now they are totally screwed. Kids without a father and a mom who thinks somehow its her fault for the rest of her life. How selfish. Maybe his pain is no more... but what about the pain he caused and left behind??? Im sorry if I come across callous and angry, but I am. Suicide is never the answer. It is the cowards way out.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Having a son so similar to myself changed everything for me. Knowing that he dealt with extreme moods that he could not control from an early age I began to look back at my own journey searching for what had helped me to not become someone that relied on a drug to change my experience. What I arrived at was that it was art that had made all the difference.Being an artist of any kind (visual, musical, dramatic, movement, writing) connects you deeply to the intangible part of life. It gives you an automatic hold when everything else falls apart. It is like an umbilical cord that is never severed from whatever larger reality we came from and will return into. So even though I was born one of the people "made of glass" that Neverknows so beautifully describes, I feel like I lucked out in the DNA lottery by coming into life with this aspect to myself that always feels firm when everything else turns to jelly.
.

This reminds me of a metaphor I once heard about this exact thing (paraphrased): "The desert is beautiful, because you know that somewhere within lies an oasis." It's just a matter of finding it...

 

[Portillo]

Its not a big deal if you believe that you are an accidental piece of pond scum. If you believe that you are made in the image of God, you might think differently.

 

[Africanus]

Its not a big deal if you believe that you are an accidental piece of pond scum. If you believe that you are made in the image of God, you might think differently.

If I believed I was the king of Spain, Id think differently too.

Doesnt mean Im the king of spain.

Im not suicidal, but if either of my two young kids (3 and 5) died, Id kill myself.

 

[MikeOekiM]

i think suicide is wrong because to me they want to commit suicide because they hate life and have lost all hope for things to turn around when i think you should never give up hope keep fighting

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

The possibility of existence being worse on the other side of suicide would definitely make me think again.
If thats a detail that has already been covered in the post I'm sorry.. I havnt read all of the thread yet.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

The possibility of existence being worse on the other side of suicide would definitely make me think again.

Brings this to mind (and yes, I have to post the whole thing and not just the portions expressing the same thoughts as YPDH):

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely, [poor]
The pangs of despised Love, the Law’s delay, [disprized]
The insolence of Office, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of us all,
And thus the Native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment, [pith]
With this regard their Currents turn awry, [away]
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remembered.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

^Thanks for posting that, that's awesome and belongs in this thread.

I'd hate to summarize that and completely sully the language that makes it so vibrant, but basically it's saying that the reason most people would ever bother to survive the drudgery of their lives is because of fear of some far greater pain awaiting us after death. All our sins to be remembered and payed back in kind, and our conscious is merely our way of choosing the lesser of two evils in this grim facade of a life. How bleak...that's exciting

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

Yeah its interesting how Shakespeare, like the bible can be interpreted in so many ways. I dont think Hamlet was an atheist.

There is more to heaven and earth than your philosophy Horatio :D

********

I had MXE the other week and the at the tail end of my trip everything appeared hollow and plastic. For example a coffee table or a cup, things I wouldnt normally perceive as 'alive' seemed lifeless empty and impoverished somehow.

I think subjectively Ive gone along with a Cartesian duality or separation of mind and matter but the trip suggested a connection.

For me God provides Life. The hollowness of the world I perceived, its complete and utter emptiness was hellish for me. As I began to return to my ordinary state I grew thankful of the grace in my world and of the way that the Spirit gives Life and animates the world.
It’s a sensitive subject and I hope its not too upsetting for anyone but I wondered, in terms of the OPs question, if I gave up that Life that is given to me would I find myself or my consciousness in that hollow empty world separated from God.

Interestingly, it appears that science is on the brink of discovering some kind of ‘God particle’ in matter. I’m really no scientist but I’m really looking forward to seeing what new Higgs boson developments are reported today.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Can I ever get the OK to do it?

Maybe in some European country. Maybe in Oregon, but definitely not in New York state.

I know you itsok so please read my PM that I'm about to send you too.

There's nothing morally wrong with suicide. There are no real reasons why there are laws against suicide. Just Christians with too much time on their hands, thinking the entire bible needs to become legal code.