TDS Suffering from protracted benzo withdrawal and don't know how to live without opiates

[burn out]

Three years ago, I came off a major xanax addiction. It was unbelievable hell and I never fully recovered. I'm still in pain all the time from protracted benzo withdrawal. A couple of years ago I started doing heroin and it helped me cope but then I lost everything to the addiction, my life savings, my job, my car, etc. I wound up in jail and rehab.

Now I am out and living off food stamps with my mom. I have been doing heroin on and off whenever I could come up with $10 or $20 but I don't really have a habit. I keep thinking I should quit but I just don't know what else to do. It helps the pain I have from the benzos so much and when I am high, is the only time I feel motivated to do anything besides lay around and watch tv. I don't really want a job because I know that as soon as I get money, I am going to get a habit again, but obviously I can't just not work and expect my parents to take care of me indefinitely. My mom knows about my benzo plight and is sympathetic, but on the condition that I don't keep using drugs. I keep wanting to improve my life, but the benzo withdrawal symptoms just keep bringing me down and discouraging me. I feel bad all the time and am not even really well enough to work full time at any sort of job that is in any way demanding, but it's also gotten to the point where I just use my benzo illness as an excuse not to do anything I don't want to do. I guess I need to find some kind of balance between accepting the fact that I'm sick, but also pushing myself to accomplish anyway. I just dont know where to go from here. I don't see myself having a very good life. Life is all about doing things and I hardly ever feel like doing anything, unless I'm high.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Have you thought of opiate replacement therapy?

 

[bagochina]

I would think that would be the last thing he would want to do.

 

[mrflowers00]

if you haven't tried it AA/NA meetings can be very helpful you can make friends that know what you're going through but a lot of people have a hard time with the whole higher power thing but even if you don't get a sponsor and work the steps just having friends that are dealing with the same shit you are can be a huge help

 

[RobotRipping]

how bad was your xanax habit? i've had some very heavy benzo habits in the past and the protracted withdrawal lasted about a year with some symptoms never showing improvement. I tried the opiate route to deal with the issues but opiates made them worse. went back to benzos, symptoms gone again but if i get my supply cut off i risk a psychotic episode and seizures.

Opiates are just an escape, i got tired of living my life nodding out and feeling numb after a while and they just made my anxiety worse. The withdrawal/paws from opiates is pretty fucking awful too, it's not like you get sick for a week or two and you're back to normal after, it takes months to recover from. You don't want to go through both benzo and opiate withdrawals/paws at the same time, it's probably the worst feeling you can feel.


Get a job, save up some money, get your own place, move away, deal with underlying anxiety issues, find a psychiatrist who can help you deal with the protracted withdrawal symptoms (after 3 years off xanax i'd think these symptoms are just you now and there's not a whole lot you can do to fix it other than medication but that's my experience). I've had plenty of therapy and changed my life but i'm just wired to be an anxious/psychotic person and after benzo abuse i don't think i can ever be a normal functioning person without them. Not that i advocate this but if it improves your quality of life i wouldn't discount it.

 

[burn out]

Have you thought of opiate replacement therapy?

What's that? You mean like suboxone or methadone? If so, I have THOUGHT of it but never wanted to do it because I've read that when used long term those drugs are harder to get off than heroin. I hate being on a drug I can't get off of. At least with the way my heroin use is right now, if I want to stop, I can. In fact if I just take a low dose of suboxone for a couple of days, I find that the withdrawal is very near painless, this is from using 10 to 20 dollars worth of heroin per day.

 

[burn out]

if you haven't tried it AA/NA meetings can be very helpful you can make friends that know what you're going through but a lot of people have a hard time with the whole higher power thing but even if you don't get a sponsor and work the steps just having friends that are dealing with the same shit you are can be a huge help

I hate AA and NA. I have no problem with the higher power aspect, I believe in God and go to Mass every week. I do have a problem with AA though, if you want to know why google the orange papers. I pretty much agree with most of what that guy has to say. I also find the meetings insanely boring and repetitive and any time I have actually tried to ask for help at the meetings, people tell me to go to rehab even though I just got out of rehab and it did nothing.

 

[burn out]

how bad was your xanax habit? i've had some very heavy benzo habits in the past and the protracted withdrawal lasted about a year with some symptoms never showing improvement. I tried the opiate route to deal with the issues but opiates made them worse. went back to benzos, symptoms gone again but if i get my supply cut off i risk a psychotic episode and seizures.

Opiates are just an escape, i got tired of living my life nodding out and feeling numb after a while and they just made my anxiety worse. The withdrawal/paws from opiates is pretty fucking awful too, it's not like you get sick for a week or two and you're back to normal after, it takes months to recover from. You don't want to go through both benzo and opiate withdrawals/paws at the same time, it's probably the worst feeling you can feel.


Get a job, save up some money, get your own place, move away, deal with underlying anxiety issues, find a psychiatrist who can help you deal with the protracted withdrawal symptoms (after 3 years off xanax i'd think these symptoms are just you now and there's not a whole lot you can do to fix it other than medication but that's my experience). I've had plenty of therapy and changed my life but i'm just wired to be an anxious/psychotic person and after benzo abuse i don't think i can ever be a normal functioning person without them. Not that i advocate this but if it improves your quality of life i wouldn't discount it.

I already went through benzo and opiate PAWS at the same time. The opiate PAWS really isnt that bad for me, after a month I feel ok opiate wise. It's the benzo symptoms that just wont go away. I was on xanax for three years. Some of that time I was abusing it in high doses up to 14 mg a day, then I got down to 4-6 mg a day for a couple years before finally tapering off it and getting thrown into hell.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

What's that? You mean like suboxone or methadone? If so, I have THOUGHT of it but never wanted to do it because I've read that when used long term those drugs are harder to get off than heroin. I hate being on a drug I can't get off of. At least with the way my heroin use is right now, if I want to stop, I can. In fact if I just take a low dose of suboxone for a couple of days, I find that the withdrawal is very near painless, this is from using 10 to 20 dollars worth of heroin per day.

Well with Suboxone or Methadone, you won't have to come up with $10/$20 a day to feel all right, obviously the cost is dependent on which program you get in etc. but generally ORT is a more affordable option than heroin addiction.

It also allows you to stabilize your life without needing heroin, and it's a better plan than continuing to use heroin in my opinion (but to each his own; you can also kick without other medications).

I honestly believe that Suboxone or methadone is easier to quit than heroin because it's easier to taper with these drugs; tapering on heroin is close to impossible because of the abuse potential.

I already went through benzo and opiate PAWS at the same time. The opiate PAWS really isnt that bad for me, after a month I feel ok opiate wise. It's the benzo symptoms that just wont go away. I was on xanax for three years. Some of that time I was abusing it in high doses up to 14 mg a day, then I got down to 4-6 mg a day for a couple years before finally tapering off it and getting thrown into hell.

Are you prescribed xanax? Do you think you could manage to get by on a moderate/small dosage of xanax per day? It's a lot easier to quit using xanax if you're only taking 1mg or less per day, instead of many milligrams per day.

However I know how bad the benzo PAWS can be, I witnessed someone quit xanax cold turkey and it was painful to watch them suffer from their mental problems being exacerbated by benzo withdrawal.

 

[ad lib]

I think keeping yourself busy will be a great way to fight off the cravings, because it seems like boredom is a trigger for you to use. Once you get a job, yes you will have money, but try and be responsible with it. Perhaps save it for getting a place of your own so you can be independent? If you have a goal in mind with your money, then you're much more likely to be wise with it. What types of hobbies or interests do you have when you're not using? Do you have any sober friends that you can hang out with?

I keep wanting to improve my life, but the benzo withdrawal symptoms just keep bringing me down and discouraging me. I feel bad all the time and am not even really well enough to work full time at any sort of job that is in any way demanding, but it's also gotten to the point where I just use my benzo illness as an excuse not to do anything I don't want to do. I guess I need to find some kind of balance between accepting the fact that I'm sick, but also pushing myself to accomplish anyway. I just dont know where to go from here. I don't see myself having a very good life. Life is all about doing things and I hardly ever feel like doing anything, unless I'm high.

You may want to try tapering if you are experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. That can help gently ease you into sobriety. In order to accomplish anything in life, you have to want to. If you keep making excuses, then you won't accomplish anything. Like you mentioned, you have to push yourself. Make it a challenge for yourself to get a job and lead the life you want to without the help of your parents. Independence is a great feeling, and once you experience that coupled with sobriety, you will thank yourself and will feel so much stronger.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Opiate replacement therapy can be a huge help, and it's much easier to taper off of that than heroin.

What?!? Methadone is WAY harder to get off than heroin if you go on long-term maintenance. I had the worst experience of my life tapering off that shit. I would never recommend it to someone who is not even physically dependent on opioids. Even for opiate addiction maintenance should be the last resort, not the first option IMO.

Using opioids for benzo PAWS is not going to solve the problem, it just makes you feel better temporarily and worse in the long-run. I would seriously look into pretty much any other way humanly possible to help improve the benzo PAWS.

burn out - Another thing to note, just because you didn't have terrible long-lasting withdrawals when you quit opioids in the past does not mean you won't in the future, it gets way worse the longer you use opioids and the more times you experience withdrawal. And stopping methadone or Suboxone is not the same as stopping short-acting opioids.

 

[ugly]

My mom is 74 and just come off an intense methadone/alcohol addiction, which my father and I basically had to force her into, as she was killing herself.

She cries a lot now.

It's fierce.

 

[Sepher]

Agree absolutely with SD Burn Out, and think your take on it dead right. ORT is the last thing you'd want to do, you'd be trading up to a physical habit, the purpose of ORT is that you trade down from addicted behaviours that are more risky / damaging. No doctor should prescribe for you in the situation you're in, it would make things worse, not better.

Also agree with SD that what's needed is some means of addressing the benzo PAWS, not temporarily medicating it away with opiates. I dunno anything about benzo withdrawal, I only ever used benzos infrequently, and I understand that opiates and benzos work through completely different pathways but I wonder if playing with brain chemistry with opiates is now also contributing to the apathy / lethargy / low mood. Heroin may be euphoric to begin with, there may still be euphoria to be had with it, but IME over time it becomes a depressant in its own right. Certainly as an addict, perhaps also with semi-regular use.

Does anyone have any suggestions for treatments for benzo PAWS? What's your doc had to say Burn Out? Have you had any help for it as yet under medical supervision? I dunno but maybe anti-ds would help counter the lack of motivation and low mood at least even if they don't directly address the PAWS.

 

[checkerscott]

i found myself in a similar situation not long ago. I had a $20-40/day habit in a small town for about a year. I ended up going to an Opiate clinic and getting put on a low dose of suboxone. I took about 2 weeks worth of the subs and tapered myself off another 2 weeks and was able to have enough left over to save for terrible cravings. I had to move out of that small town to fully get away from the constant temptation and the memories of shooting up in just about every bathroom plenty of different houses, the place I worked, etc... I moved back in with my parents to get away from everything and its taken me about 8 mos to actually find the motivation to find anything enjoyable, but it gets better. You just have to want to quit and you have to be ready to give it up... a daily struggle sometimes, for life.

 

[bagochina]

Does anyone have any suggestions for treatments for benzo PAWS? What's your doc had to say Burn Out? Have you had any help for it as yet under medical supervision? I dunno but maybe anti-ds would help counter the lack of motivation and low mood at least even if they don't directly address the PAWS.

Time is pretty much the best treatment for benzo PAWS. Add to that eating healthy and some sort of brain stimulation (take a class at a local school). IMO, anti-d's would be a bad idea might screw up the chemistry in the brain even more. Benzo recovery is best done without the conjunction of other brain altering substances. I've used neurontin and lyirca to help combat some of the w/d symptoms but they had very little effect. In fact they tended to increase the shakes.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

You can do more than just wait. You can make changes to your diet and lifestyle, take supplements, work on the psychological aspects like anxiety or depression through a number of therapies and methods, use non-drug methods of coping with any other related issues like insomnia, etc. You can make sure you don't have any other contributing health problems or mental health problems that were just being masked by the benzos which need to be addressed. There is a lot you can do for PAWS (of any kind) other than just waiting or taking other drugs. I think overcoming PAWS requires an active role rather than just doing nothing and hoping it will get better, even though it can be very hard to motivate oneself to do the things that might help when you feel shitty, and it does take time and effort.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

My mom is 74 and just come off an intense methadone/alcohol addiction, which my father and I basically had to force her into, as she was killing herself.

She cries a lot now.

It's fierce.

I'm sorry to hear about how your mom cries a lot, but I am glad that she's still alive.

 

[BlueHues]

My 2 cents about PAWS here.....

Obviously it "exists", but in my 15 or so years in and out of rehab/AA/NA/Private counseling/ psych-wards/prison etc., I've concluded that while PAWS most certainly exists, particularly if we're talking benzos or methadone, I think the duration of it is often greatly exaggerated as an excuse to keep people "thinking" that every little ache, pain and feeling of self-loathing that they experience falls under the umbrella of "withdrawal symptoms" for years and years after theyve stopped using whatever it is......

All PAWS really refers to is somebody experiencing withdrawal symptoms after the acute phase of WDs has ended.....For example, you might get the occasional "chill" 40 days off methadone or be super anxious and jumpy with muscle twitches a few months off benzos....for me, that's what PAWS really is.....

At some point, probably the '80s, all these books about PAWS started being written by these "Drug Treatment Guru" types that basically expanded the definition of PAWS to basically include any bad feeling, mental, physical or emotional that one experiences after quitting ANY substance, not just substances that cause physical withdrawal symptoms.....and these symptoms could pretty much go on indefinitely, at least that's what it seems like.

Do a bunch of LSD and smoke weed for 5 years, quit and you still feel depressed a year later?!

"Must be PAWS kickin in!"

Okay, so anyway my point I'm trying to make.....

The majority of people caught in the legal justice system in America face some form of mandatory substance abuse treatment, and a lot of it is government funded by the state or Federal government....

There's tons of 2 year residential treatment programs that people are routine paroled into that are run like boot camps!(yes 2 years!) A lot of them are privately owned but publicly funded.....The point is, somebody is making a lot of money by keeping people in these treatment programs for so long and of course they're pulling all these research studies out of their ass that claim "The addicted brain requires 2 years to heal!" to justify keeping people in these programs for so long, and of course they have prison sentences hanging over their heads, so they really have no choice but to stay! Theres not many 2 year rehabs out there for "normal people"! And a lot of these places are basically like re-education camps whose main tactics are humiliation and intimidation.....I don't really see how it facilitates "Healing the addicted brain", but hey, what do I know? People would be shocked if they knew how many of these TCs(Therapeutic communities) there are out there...

I went into a 30 day rehab coming off a long term heroin habit and was given a really shitty sub taper there that had me jump off at 2mgs...I was feeling pretty shitty for a month, but felt pretty good after 2....

I had a misdemeanor that was still pending and the court was basically making me follow the recommendation of the the treastment professionals before theyd dispose of the case.....

I ended up getting referred to another rehab from the 30 day rehab that was 1 year long and the people running this place swore up and down that I needed a whole year to recover, no matter what!...."Pretty convenient that it takes exactly a year!", I thought,....

Of course this was a privately owned rehab that was 8000 a month!.....They were making money hand over fist, and the whole "PAWS" thing was their bread and butter to coerce people into staying in treatment and have their families pretty much go damn near broke in a lot of cases to keep them there..."

Basically telling parents that their kids were gonna die if they left before a year because they were "still in PAWS....."

I don't know, you can recover a lot quicker if you maintain a positive attitude, eat healthy, sleep etc....It's a cliche, but I hate to see people think that they're sentenced to years of suffering, when it really doesn't go on for THAT long for most people....I'm sure some people will disagree and thats fine...

worrying yourself sick and nitpicking how you feel every second of the day will cause all kinds of symptoms too IME

sorry if I went on too long or de-railed the thread

 

[villian]

You can do more than just wait. You can make changes to your diet and lifestyle, take supplements, work on the psychological aspects like anxiety or depression through a number of therapies and methods, use non-drug methods of coping with any other related issues like insomnia, etc. You can make sure you don't have any other contributing health problems or mental health problems that were just being masked by the benzos which need to be addressed. There is a lot you can do for PAWS (of any kind) other than just waiting or taking other drugs. I think overcoming PAWS requires an active role rather than just doing nothing and hoping it will get better, even though it can be very hard to motivate oneself to do the things that might help when you feel shitty, and it does take time and effort.

Of course a healthy diet in combination with exercise can't hurt, but it is far from a cure for protracted benzo withdrawal. When you are dealing with depression/anxiety/insomnia/cognitive dysfunction for years on end it can be nearly impossible to find the motivation to even get out of bed in the morning (assuming you slept). This is a large reason that people either get back onto benzos or another drug to help them cope with withdrawal especially when they are still sick years after coming off their benzo.

I am all for living a healthy lifestyle but there is something about benzos that tends to cause long term changes in the brain for some people who use it. There have been hundreds of anecdotal reports on the various boards that deal specificially with benzo withdrawal where people have been sober for years and still suffer.

Such things as a natural diet, meditation, weight training, light cadio, CBT and other things can help but in the end you simply have to wait for your brain to reach homeostasis again.

Right now what you need to focus on is staying off the dope. I know right know you are only chipping but we all know how quickly chipping can develop into a real habit.

Is the benzo withdrawal the only thing causing you to crave getting high or do you have other issues you need to address as well?

I know you have had a bad history in the past with marijuana, but if you are getting to the point where you are craving relief and are turning to heroin is it possible you could occasionaly smoke marijuana instead?

Time is pretty much the best treatment for benzo PAWS. Add to that eating healthy and some sort of brain stimulation (take a class at a local school). IMO, anti-d's would be a bad idea might screw up the chemistry in the brain even more. Benzo recovery is best done without the conjunction of other brain altering substances. I've used neurontin and lyirca to help combat some of the w/d symptoms but they had very little effect. In fact they tended to increase the shakes.

I hear you man. You are the one person I know who has been able to successfully come off both a long term/high dose benzo habit and stay off. I had nearly 2 years clean before I relapsed first onto suboxone and eventually back onto diazepam to help me get off the suboxone. Right now I am attempting a diazpam taper but my self control is shit and I also picked up a tramadol habit around that same time I still haven't dealt with. I swear knowing that you made it through your habit is one of the only things that keeps me going everyday. I enrolled back in school when I was still clean but once I got back on benzos my grades started to suffer, specifically my math classes. I also justified my reinstatement onto benzos because I had a public speaking class I needed to take during my suboxone withdrawal so I figured what could a couple hurt?

Words for the wise: When you finally do get off a benzo habit please don't make the same mistake I did and start taking benzos again for any reason. Over the past 11 years I have had 7 seizures all directly related to benzo cold turkeys (mostly unintentional) and I still fell back into my old ways. Benzos, particularly when used in high doses over a long period have the potential to cause years of distress and just knowing that taking one little pill will make all that pain go away is such a powerful temptation.

Obviously it "exists", but in my 15 or so years in and out of rehab/AA/NA/Private counseling/ psych-wards/prison etc., I've concluded that while PAWS most certainly exists, particularly if we're talking benzos or methadone, I think the duration of it is often greatly exaggerated as an excuse to keep people "thinking" that every little ache, pain and feeling of self-loathing that they experience falls under the umbrella of "withdrawal symptoms" for years and years after theyve stopped using whatever it is......

Why the quotes around "exists"? There have been numerous studies done about benzo PAWS. I'm not speaking of PAWS in general, but benzos in particular. This has been studied over the past 30+ years by an array of doctors. Before you make a comment implying you can just man up and get over if I suggest you do a bit of research about the subject. Benzo withdrawal syndrome is a specific set of symptoms that encompass much more than the occasional ache and pain. This is the exact reason benzos should never be taken long term in the first place. In the UK patients have actually been rewarded with settlements in court because they are unable to work nearly 10 years after coming off benzos.

 

[bagochina]

I swear knowing that you made it through your habit is one of the only things that keeps me going everyday. I enrolled back in school when I was still clean but once I got back on benzos my grades started to suffer, specifically my math classes.

Thanks man! It's nice hearing that because it hasn't been easy and the people around me have an idea of how tough it's been but in reality they have no fucking idea. Hope things start to go the way you want them to.