Subutex/Suboxone Withdrawal Day 5

[johnl2]

Hello everyone, going to make this short, I am in the middle of my 5th day of subutex withdrawal. So far, it hasn't been too bad, at all. I am actually kinda worried that it has not hit me yet. I was on around 2 to 4 mg for the past 7 years. I was mostly on a low dose the whole time. I went up and down. But over the past couple of months, I have been on 4, sometimes more, sometimes less, my last does was like 8mg. I was all over the place the last week. I just wanted to run out and could not flush them b/c they cost so much $! So, day 5 and not so bad as of yet. I've been through cold turkey heroin detox in jail twice and one time when I decided to take naltrexone to get it over with faster and it was pure horror. I honestly didn't think I'd make that one! But after 2.5 days, it was like night and day, and with the naltrexone, it was over in less than 12 hours, but those 12 hours were torture. I mean serious projectile vomiting like you wouldn't believe, something that you'd see in a movie. But it happened one time out of a dead sleep and that was it. (I was sleeping b/c all of the squirming, rls, etc. just took all my energy and I believe I may have taken something to help with sleep if I remember). I am hoping that since I know what heroin withdrawal is like, and that is what I'm expecting, that it won't be so bad for me. Either way, I'm doing it, I have no more sub and refuse to pay $500 even one more time. The doctor I go to charges me $260 to write the script and then I have to pay around $200 for the bottle. I am so sick of it, they are thieves. They take advantage of people trying to do the right thing. So, b/c of that and mostly b/c I WANT to, I am done, for good. I haven't touched a drug in over 7 years besides sub. I have no cravings to do them either. Yes, sub gets you 'high', but not really. I would say it's more like getting drunk, or a really good coffee buzz. Energy to do things, peak in interest, but nothing so bad that you can't stop it such as heroin. So I feel pretty safe going into the world completely sober.

Anyway, my question is this: Do I have a hard time ahead of me as far as sub withdrawal goes???!

 

[JoeJunky]

That seems crazy that doubling your dose can carry you 4 days with no symptoms but that has to be it. You're not taking anything else?

With your history/usage you have to go through WD at some point right?

I'm not a doctor, I've just kicked sub a couple times, smaller doses though. 2mg jump was moderate WD for me, it really kicked in 48 hours in.

 

[johnl2]

That seems crazy that doubling your dose can carry you 4 days with no symptoms but that has to be it. You're not taking anything else?

With your history/usage you have to go through WD at some point right?

I'm not a doctor, I've just kicked sub a couple times, smaller doses though. 2mg jump was moderate WD for me, it really kicked in 48 hours in.

Thanks for your response Joe; about 3 days ago, I took some immodium and only used grapefruit juice to wash it down. I do not believe I was in withdrawal at that point, but I thought I was, (it's been a long time since I've been there), and of course, like everyone else, I'm a sissy when it comes to withdrawal, b/c, well, let's face it, we're not sissies, it's just the most horrible thing a person can go thru! So I took maybe 20mg of the lope and maybe it was just a placebo effect, but I thought I felt better. At this point, I think I can get through it pretty much unscathed with the proper use of lope. Lope is a very long lasting (long halflife, though not as long as sub) and pretty potent opiate and can easily create a whole new problem. So I'm just taking it easy with the stuff. When I feel too uncomfortable and too weak to do anything, I will take some like I just did. And lessen the dosage every time.

 

[JoeJunky]

Speak for yourself, I'm a huge wuss.

Seriously though, I have no idea about lope. I wish I did if you're jumping 4mg that easy.

List in order of what helped me...Benzos (Xanax/klonopin), gabapentin, trazodone, tramadol, clonidine.

I'm sure someone will read this and chime in with experience with lope.

Especially since you're responding. I think a lot of people post one time "I'm kicking dope tomorrow!" and you never hear from them again. Good luck.

 

[johnl2]

Lol, I know that's true, about your last sentence. Unfortunately I have no access to benzos, probably for the better anyway. But I have to say, the lope is working great, I will keep this going until I am completely done, hopefully it will help someone and hopefully the forum will help keep me in line. Like I said, I haven't done drugs in 7 years, but it's a slippery slope. I appreciate the conversation.

 

[johnl2]

Oh, btw Joe, I've also been taking L-Tyrosine, 5HTP, Ibuprofen, St Johns Wort and Elimidrol, daytime and night time formula. Idk about the first 4, but the Elimidrol is useless! I paid like $75 for both and they didn't really do much. Totally not worth it. As far as the others, I don't really know, perhaps they helped a bit.

 

[johnl2]

Also, now that I know the lope works, I am no longer worried at all about withdrawal. I finally see the light at the end. It didn't help 100%, but good enough to the point that I could actually work if I had to.

P.S. And for everyone who thinks you can get high on lope, it's just not true. At least nothing like a real opiate high. It actually kinda sucks. I merely feel normal at best. Way too many kids are killing themselves with this junk for a really shitty high. It's just not worth it. If you'd like to ruin your life with opiates like I and so many other poor souls did, then at least make the high worth it! Oh, and btw kids, you don't enjoy the opiate high until you become addicted. That's the rub. It doesn't get good until there's no turning back. For me, the high was the part where you went from feeling like all hell was raining down, then getting back to normal.

 

[JoeJunky]

Oh, btw Joe, I've also been taking L-Tyrosine, 5HTP, Ibuprofen, St Johns Wort and Elimidrol, daytime and night time formula. Idk about the first 4, but the Elimidrol is useless! I paid like $75 for both and they didn't really do much. Totally not worth it. As far as the others, I don't really know, perhaps they helped a bit.

minus the ibuprofen, I have no idea what that stuff is...I'll keep talking on this thread, but I have no business being a first responder lol.

I think your situation is interesting, I'm sure someone can shed some light.

Slippery slope indeed, one of the dumbest things I've done is trying to hook a friend up with maintenance while I was clean. I somehow convinced myself I could take sub once a week and piss dirty without getting hooked again.

 

[johnl2]

minus the ibuprofen, I have no idea what that stuff is...I'll keep talking on this thread, but I have no business being a first responder lol.

I think your situation is interesting, I'm sure someone can shed some light.

Slippery slope indeed, one of the dumbest things I've done is trying to hook a friend up with maintenance while I was clean. I somehow convinced myself I could take sub once a week and piss dirty without getting hooked again.

You're helping me just fine just by responding, I mean, what more can anyone really do for me? I got all of the info online that I could need. Now I just need to stay strong. Tomorrow is the day that my sub doc is there. Every Tuesday. Need to make sure I don't end up there begging them to take my money. Oh, and if you miss an appt, they have the nerve to charge you a $75 penalty! I missed about 3 months! I couldn't afford to go back there anyway. But I appreciate your responses. And as far as your last one, I've done some dumb things myself, I'm sure we all did. I think the dumbest was the naltrexone. Coming in second is when I decided I was going to get clean no matter what. (I lived in Long Island at the time). I somehow obtained 2 bundles, stuffed one and kept the other in my pocket. I got on a train to the city and my plan was to walk to Canada as I had warrants in NY. I was going to start a new life. I got as far as Manhattan, realizing I cannot walk through the tunnels. I soon ran out of the junk in my pocket. I lost the other stuff in my butt. So I went into a CVS and stole a laxative. A few hours later, I had my last bundle and walked up and down the Deleware river for abou 2 days. My feet were so sore they had blisters on them. I was hallucinating a lot of the time. Slept on the grass along the river. When I finally ran out, I ended up going to a burger king. I just sat in front of it and a passerby handed me a $5 like I was a bum. That was probably one of my lowest moments. So I took it and went inside and got a BK sundae. Then jumped the train home. You think that would be my wakeup call. I wish I could tell you that was when I stopped, but it wasn't. When I got home, I tured myself in and detoxed in jail. I remember on the way home on the train, I'd just look out the window, looking at all of the 'normal' people. I remember wishing that I was like them. How I just want to be normal. Not on drugs.

 

[johnl2]

Little History: I am 38 years old. I started smoking pot at 13. Started getting bad anxiety. Stopped pot. Started drinking moderately at 18. Never any problems. I got a serious g/f around that time and had a good job. We were together for about 4yrs. She cheated on me and it was totally unexpected. We were on and off for about another year which tore me up. I was drinking heavily including hard liquor. One night my sister got me to do coke with her. I was drunk and vulnerable. That was the start of my downward spiral. I was around 23 at that point. I was drinking and doing coke all the time. My sister saw I was getting bad and cut me off from her dealer. So I thought, I'll show her. . . I called an old friend whom I avoided for years b/c he was a heroin addict. He and many others are dead today. I believe I'm the last one left out of the people I ran with. They're all dead. It took me all these years to finally get to where I am. I am only realizing now that I am 38 years old and it's really hard knowing that I threw a big part of my life away. There is a pretty large amount of clean time in-between all of those years. But nevertheless, it's all worthless if you don't stay that way. I have to say, my biggest regret is being on suboxone all of that time. The drugs were fun and I had good times, but the maintenance, that just sucks. It's like wasted years. Granted, my time away from drugs is enormous and I'd never go near them again, but 2 yrs is plenty, 7 is just a waste of life. I ignored my wife for 7 yrs, no pain, I could deal with anything life threw at me, the sub kept me numb. My story could go on for pages and I remember it all, but that is the jist of it.

 

[JoeJunky]

I'm close to the same age, I think something happens to people when they hit their 30's, call it maturity or whatever...Do I wish I could have my twenties back? ....not sure...

This reminds me of a close friend that I debate with about the different directions we took in life.

I was never down to go rip the copper out of someone's house so my rock bottom was just pawning everything I owned, drug debt, basically just being flat broke. I had enough and it was time to get it together even though I had been in worse situations that didn't make me quit...this was in my early 30's when I decided to quit the "life."

My friend on the other hand always wants to keep the party going and has had some crazy ups and downs. Making scores for several grand, getting screwed up for a week, getting laid by new women, meeting interesting people, going to new places, etc. but also...going to jail/prison, overdosing, being broke, family problems, etc.

Who made the right decisions with their life? I thought the obvious answer was me having a stable job, going on two week vacations, meeting clean women on dating sites, normal stuff. I'm happier now than when I was chasing dope, but it's not exciting like my early twenties when I was up for anything, but I'm not up for anything anymore.

He argues that I'm a slave to the monetary system and my cookie-cutter life lacks excitement. He sees things as do what is good right now, life is going to have ups and downs no matter what. It's like a volatile yin-yang philosophy combined with the worship of self.

The conversation always seems to end with..."Fuck it, do what makes you happy." Even though we don't fully understand each others outlook on life.

I always ask "why". "Why" do drugs? "Why" do you have this behavior? "Why", "Why", "Why", until I reach what I think is the root of the problem.

I'm lost now...I swear there was a point to this rant, but I can't remember lol...maybe I do regret my twenties, my memory sucks! I'm not even stoned. Ahh, I can't delete all this typing...

Let's just keep ranting, I'm always surfing this site watching random episodes on Viceland thinking I should probably be doing something, too damn cold outside.

But yeah man, pay the doctor, it sucks, it does seem like they nickel and dime you sometimes but they have the power and what you going to do? Get on slippery slope of looking on the street? Where there is sub...you know.

 

[johnl2]

Wow, that is some funny shit Joe! And about the copper, lol, I've ripped the copper out of my own garage! Horrible. I love your post, I always thought, hey, if I were rich, would I do drugs? I've given it a lot of thought and the ultimate answer is no. The streets go dry, even if you're rich. People get busted. You get busted. You're still destroying your body. I could go on but I'm sure you get the point. I think it's better to be addicted to getting rich. I figure I've had my share of partying. Now it's time for the 'cookie cutter life'. Not everyone can say they had the fun we did! I actually don't regret a lot of it, but those moments that I don't regret are the ones that I fear most to think about. Certain songs, certain times and places, they just come over me like wow, I loved that moment so much. Most of those were in the beginning stages of my use. But it was amazing. Also, you can never go back there again. Ever. So what's the point in trying. At least we have the memories.

As for the withdrawal, still feeling kinda crappy, today is day 6, 9pm tonight starts day 7. I have cheated with the immodium, so I've decided not to take anymore and see what happens. Thanks for posting Joe. I appreciate it. Not to make you feel obligated, but I look forward to it.

 

[johnl2]

Ok, so I was pretty ok this morning and as usual was watching youtube vids of people detoxing from sub. Then I clicked on another vid that led to the next and to the next. Before I knew it, I was watching ppl shooting up. At first it didn't bother me, then all of a sudden I got the feeling like I had to go to the bathroom,(anyone who's been addicted to opiates knows what I'm talking about), even though I was constipated on immodium. I knew my sub doc was in today and I totally went there and got raped. Back to square one I guess? I am very ashamed. Disgusted. Pissed off with myself. Doesn't mean I give up, I'm still gonna try. If it's this hard to get off sub at home, dope is impossible. I like to think on sub, I'm flying right below the radar, like inbetween. The high is not good enough to make it impossible to stop. This is doable, unfortunately, I failed this time, but I still have my sobriety as far as illicit drugs go. Thank you for your support Joe, I really do appreciate it. I would like to stay on this forum and help/get help.

 

[JoeJunky]

Hah, I'm glad you found my post...interesting. I re-read it and thought, man this is crackhead outside of a Sheetz at 3 am worthy, thread is dead here, ppl will think I'm nuts. F'k it, I'm not deleting it hah.

I see my friends point, you need $, but it doesn't necessarily buy you happiness. Really cliché, but it's true. I got a hold of 20k and burned through it sitting in a room shooting H and OC's. That's a part of my life that I want back. But I'mma chill on the rant today...

Back to the topic...

Man, if you're not shooting H and staying on maintenance I don't think you're back to square one. I think of suboxone as a tool to get me in the right mindset.

I was banging my sub and trying to bridge H with it for a while before I gave up and started thinking how do I get off this expensive crap (sub) that does nothing!

I think that's what you should ask yourself. "WHY" am I taking sub? The "why" "why" "why" tree to get to the root of something, this is something I use for a lot of stuff in life.

My mindset changed over time w/ sub, at the beginning it was to stop me from doing H, then to get my life straight, then it became just not to be sick...which is stupid expensive, and what drove me to start my taper plan and eventually quit. It took me several years, or until I was in my 30's.

I know people who have no plan for ever quitting sub. Their "why" might be...pain management, no H relapse, helps them cope, etc.

I think if you start asking yourself "why" you might get a better idea of your future plans.

Hey, how about that? Sounding more like a doctor than a crackhead today.

 

[johnl2]

hahahaa, hell yea it is. . . and yea, every junkie has his/her day. I've ran into a lot of money several times. Oh boy, those were good days indeed. Oh, yea, I was the MAN. I was the go to guy, I was selling, I was giving away, I was a hero. Until I ran out of course. Of course you should know that heroin gets to be not enough of a high anymore, so the crack had to make it's way in. And the H was perfect for coming down. . . what a combo. Yea, lots and lots of money burned/smoked/shot. I know I'd be well off today if I'd saved all of that money, probably enough to retire.

Thanks for not judging, it just feels like square one to me b/c it's been so long I've been on this stuff. I realized that jumping off at 4mg was jumping straight into reality way too soon with way too much that has changed over the last 7 years. At one point I was on about half of a quarter of a mg. I felt like I was not even on sub and I could take it or leave it at that point. That is my goal now. Reality hit me too hard this time and I just wasn't ready for it. My wife doesn't understand how hard it is. She is livid with me. She's actually leaving me over this last screw up. She's out the door Sept. 1st.

I have asked the 'why'. I keep coming back to fear and comfort. I'm no longer afraid of going back to drugs, haven't feared that in a long time. Just fear of being sober. Sub is actually more of a high than I'd originally thought. Big big difference from being sober. Big. Yes, sub is expensive, could buy $500 worth of H every month instead, but the sub lasts much longer! lol. Yes, it's less of a high, but that makes it even more valuable. Back to what I said about kicking heroin at home versus sub. Also, I'm actually on subutex, not suboxone, so I can technically get high whenever I want but never do. And I've also booted sub. It wasn't too bad actually, got addicted to it for awhile. I have a friend who tried booting it when he ran out of dope. Dumb ass, I told him not to. He called me crying.

So, my plan is to taper back to half of a .25mg dose. Then come off slowly. Thanks again for the support Joe, it helps a lot. I'm not giving up.

 

[JoeJunky]

Ahh, your "why" can't be just a fear of being sober? "Why" are you scared of being sober?

I'm not a psychoanalysis, maybe I'm drilling the "why" too much because it's what works for me.

For example, "why" I got high was because of social-anxiety. Without drugs, I have 95% less fake friends and I'm only getting laid by chicks who want to get married. I had a need to be socially accepted and it wasn't happening with my personality...looks, money, or because I could dunk a basketball.
I got lost in that by taking it too far and getting hooked on dope, but it all comes back to that. "Why" I have social-anxiety is another question...

But, back to the topic...

I personally think you can taper 4mg and quit in 6 months and keep you girl. But, you know this...

If I were you and decided that quitting sub and keeping my girl was more important then I would talk to her and see what medications are acceptable or probably in her mind more affordable...having a girl is expensive, you know you have to spend all your money on her and not drugs right?

I do find it strange that you're in no jeopardy of a relapse and you're choosing to stay on sub for the high. For me personally, I never felt high off sub, maybe an energy boost at most, but I also take benzos so it might have masked the anti-anxiety properties that the sub had.

Yeah, I agree, I wouldn't call your friend a dumbass to his face, but I never understood shooting sub unless you have a needle fetish, someone with an opiate tolerance is just abusing their veins.

Last thing, you think we should move this to a megathread or something? I have no problem bullshitting with you but more input can't hurt.

Anyone reading please chime in. Help out our friend here.

 

[johnl2]

I'm scared of being sober b/c I haven't been in so long and over this amount of time, (almost a decade), a lot has transpired. I have an awful lot to deal with. I haven't even dealt with the death of my grandfather, (father to me). It all happened on sub. A fight with my family that lead to disownment on my part. I disowned them. I have nobody at this point except for my wife. Literally nobody. Not even a single friend. We picked up and moved to PA about 3.5 years ago. And I didn't really have any friends there either, just drug friends. The shit has been piling up for 7 years. That is why I am afraid of being sober. I started getting sober and suddenly all of these things came flooding in. Way too much to handle all at once. So I decided on a slow taper for this reason. But now I decided to go cold turkey again. After being on sub now for 2 days, I am devastated that I lost my 7 days. I felt so proud and even though I was in pain, I look back on it like a good high. I want to be there again. And now I have sub just incase it gets so bad I can't handle it. I can take a quarter of a pill if need be. So here I go again. My wife holds onto the bottle btw. And if I start going backwards, the wrath I have to deal with is worse than withdrawal. Which is a good thing. She's sick of all this. I have been unable to be sexual during my use. I have been cold and to myself. I'm shocked she's even still here. I feel awful about all of this. I want our relationship back and there's a chance. I just need to be clean.

As far as finances go, I cut trees down in the summer and landscape and we just put her through nursing school. She just graduated in December and any money either one of us make is ours, as in mine and hers. There's no separation with that. We have been together for 8 years and known eachother since we were 14. We even dated back then. So we are very close. We own a home and all of our belongings such as cars and stuff outright. We also own our house. So we are in a pretty good position. Except for the fact that since I've been so distant, she wants to move back to our home which is NY. Even if I get clean, there's no changing her mind as far as that is concerned.

And yes, I believe sub makes me very high, not a rush or anything, but it gives me energy and motivation. It peaks my interests to the point that I could be in my hobby room ALL day. I guess I've been away from heroin for so long that I forgot what it feels like. And man am I happy about that. Because the problem with opiates and other strong drugs is that the brain doesn't forget.

I'd have no problem moving this to a megathread, only I don't know how.

 

[C80]

Just wanted to say I'm new to this site & stumbled across y'alls discussion here... Very insightful & so relatable. Thanks for sharing! I have a quick question though? What is lope?!

 

[johnl2]

Just wanted to say I'm new to this site & stumbled across y'alls discussion here... Very insightful & so relatable. Thanks for sharing! I have a quick question though? What is lope?!

I actually use 'lope' so as to hide what I'm talking about b/c ppl tend to abuse it. But since you came straight out and asked, it is immodium. I just didn't want to be responsible for ppl misusing the stuff b/c it really does suck. It tastes awful when u burp and there is no high associated with it. It's more dangerous than anything else but it sure does help with the withdrawals! Don't take more than 10 2mg pills though. Otherwise you will regret it. If you want to get high, please do a drug that is meant for that purpose. This is not it. Welcome to the forum btw.

 

[C80]

Gotcha! I've used "lope" when I've been in severe withdrawals. It never really helped me though... To chime in to your original question, I've been on Subs for about 12 years. I got clean & stayed sober for 3 years at one point. With the help of my Dr. I brought myself down to like 0.5 a day, give or take & it was virtually pain free. It also depends on what kind of Sub you're taking. I would NOT recommend Subutex / Buprenorphine! Oh & I also took Xanax at night to help me sleep & calm my nerves & muscle spasms. That helped A LOT! Hopefully this helps