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Bupe Subutex and the future

AnrBjotk

Bluelighter
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
267
Location
Norway
Maybe this is mega thread-material...?

Does anyone know how long-term opiate and/or sub-use affects the brain after rehab? Found a dubious source saying opiate and/or meth use destroy the brains ability to produce serotonin... Found else where this was partly true for meth, but I'm really only interested in how sub affects... Could I imagine a future where - after four years of sub use - I can feel "normality" and even pleasure in life drug-free?
Or is the judeo-christian paradigme true: Having sinned and cheated, I'll never feel happy and must simply suffer in silence, taking joy in the momentary lapses of pain?
 
Thats a good question that is unanswered (as far as buprenorphine goes) because it is a fairly new drug and it hasnt been out long enough for people to have been on it for 15 plus years. I know a bunch of people who have been on it for years and dont even think about getting off or tapering. I do believe that in regards to recovery, mind over matter. As with opiod/opiate withdrawal, it is what you make of it to a point. You can go out to gnc and load up on a bunch of herbs and otc drugs that have little to no affect or even in most cases make symptoms worse and then prepare to be on the couch for 2 weeks. Or you can not let W/D get the best of you, force yourself to exercise (partial reason for insomnia is lack of movement throughout the day), force yourself to go out/socialize, drink alcohol/throw up/drink alcohol. The last time i went through buprenorphine w/d i started running and going for walks here and there throughout the day. It helps tremendously. As for long term effects after detox, speaking from personal experience the only thing i can say is that I was hooked on bupe for a year, went clean for 6 years then got back on for another 2 years and kicked it again 3 months ago. During my 6 years clean, I stayed active and ate healthy and the thought never crossed my mind to take a peice of a sub or perc but hey thats only after a year... Maybe you guys can offer more suggestions about overcoming longterm effects of opiate use? Chiropractor? Shrink? Holistic healing? Heart, Guts, Balls, Willpower? Electric shock therapy? lol... If you believe its going to drag you down then it most certainly will. Adapt and overcome.
 
If you get off subs and you feel like shit after a while then just get back on them. Its not worth it to make yourself miserable just because you think you have to be "drug free" to be happy.
 
Well you won't be forever depressed with no ability to generate serotonin just a few years its called PAWS no everyone gets it bad but some have years of depression , anxiety, insomnia and other symptoms before the brain starts to normalise itself again without drugs. I have heard with Meth (from when I was in school) if you do it for years heavily you can end up permanently destroying your natural feel good receptors so some addicts could be like that for life just a depressed person who would need to be on meds just to have a somewhat normal quality of life.
 
I've been on bupe since 10 months now. No, regular opiates are not suspected of causing any brain damage. Bupe is a weird one though, there is nothing else like it for the public to consume. A partial agonist that sticks to opi receptors stronger than ANYTHING, well, almost, I was told by the doctors at the clinic a couple times that if I hurt myself real bad I would have to be given fentanyl pops because patches are not strong enough to kick the bupe out of the mu receptors (no idea about other receptors, i think bupe has an antagonist effect on Kappa receptors?, correct me if wrong). But I can feel it being a worse beast than methadone. I'm actually going back on methadone next time I meet a doctor at the ORT clinic, hopefully one of those I saw more often than those I did not (it's annoying to have random doctors). The only male one is the best one at the clinic and he told me that yes, he didn't want me to be on bupe for more than 2 years, I had to switch due to methadone side effects (testosterone deficiency), but now that I take testosterone shots by myself every 2 weeks and take anti-estrogens, I'll go back on methadone. At least the thing has been researched since decades. I was just unfortunate. I feel that taking bupe for maintenance is an error and should not be done for more than 3 months (the actual recommendations of the manufacturer), there is literature out there about bupe maybe causing irreversible damage to the natural endorphins/enkephalin systems/receptors. How bad is it? No one knows yet, but something that sticks so hard like crazy glue to your opi receptors, it is basically an experiment on us poor ex junkies, but I imagine that after so long of being unable to have any natural endorphins stick to them, something not so good might be going on long term. Full agonists like methadone are understood to cause this, but they don't totally block out other opiates ( highest dose of methadone I got to is 60mg, maybe ridiculous doses of 100mg+ I have seen people discuss being on here do block em all, but when I attempted to get high with IV Dilaudid 36 hours later at about 44-46mg of methadone a day, I could pull it off, it wasn't as intense but I did get dat rush.

3 days after no suboxone I tried up to 20mg of hydromorph IV, I scored a shitload of 4mg brand name dillies and just couldn't say no, because of the price being so low, I practically wasted them all and could hear junkies all over the world cry about it (lol), all it would do is give me absolutely no rush, which is what dillies are all about, then I would sorta get high, but no euphoria, it would dissipate quickly. The time I slammed 20mg I mostly experienced respiratory depression which was scary as shit, used my inhaler like mad, and I rarely ever need it these days. And that's 3 days of waiting! I want to get off it as soon as possible, I don't want to not be able to experience the real opiate high anymore, may it be recreationally or medicinally, imagine getting in a severe car accident and all they can do is put you in a controlled fentanyl coma because no amount of morphine / dilaudid / x opiate shots would do anything....
 
No evidence that opioids destroy any neurotransmitter's, that's called toxicity, and opiods lack that narly side effect.

Besides, opioids don't effect serotonin the way other drugs do.

Doesn't mean it won't change you though, like Train said, it can take years to get back on track.

From personal experience, I think there are some permanent changes, but there is no evidence to support this.

But, they definitely don't "destroy" serotonin.
 
I've been on bupe since 10 months now. No, regular opiates are not suspected of causing any brain damage. Bupe is a weird one though, there is nothing else like it for the public to consume. A partial agonist that sticks to opi receptors stronger than ANYTHING, well, almost, I was told by the doctors at the clinic a couple times that if I hurt myself real bad I would have to be given fentanyl pops because patches are not strong enough to kick the bupe out of the mu receptors (no idea about other receptors, i think bupe has an antagonist effect on Kappa receptors?, correct me if wrong). But I can feel it being a worse beast than methadone. I'm actually going back on methadone next time I meet a doctor at the ORT clinic, hopefully one of those I saw more often than those I did not (it's annoying to have random doctors). The only male one is the best one at the clinic and he told me that yes, he didn't want me to be on bupe for more than 2 years, I had to switch due to methadone side effects (testosterone deficiency), but now that I take testosterone shots by myself every 2 weeks and take anti-estrogens, I'll go back on methadone. At least the thing has been researched since decades. I was just unfortunate. I feel that taking bupe for maintenance is an error and should not be done for more than 3 months (the actual recommendations of the manufacturer), there is literature out there about bupe maybe causing irreversible damage to the natural endorphins/enkephalin systems/receptors. How bad is it? No one knows yet, but something that sticks so hard like crazy glue to your opi receptors, it is basically an experiment on us poor ex junkies, but I imagine that after so long of being unable to have any natural endorphins stick to them, something not so good might be going on long term. Full agonists like methadone are understood to cause this, but they don't totally block out other opiates ( highest dose of methadone I got to is 60mg, maybe ridiculous doses of 100mg+ I have seen people discuss being on here do block em all, but when I attempted to get high with IV Dilaudid 36 hours later at about 44-46mg of methadone a day, I could pull it off, it wasn't as intense but I did get dat rush.

3 days after no suboxone I tried up to 20mg of hydromorph IV, I scored a shitload of 4mg brand name dillies and just couldn't say no, because of the price being so low, I practically wasted them all and could hear junkies all over the world cry about it (lol), all it would do is give me absolutely no rush, which is what dillies are all about, then I would sorta get high, but no euphoria, it would dissipate quickly. The time I slammed 20mg I mostly experienced respiratory depression which was scary as shit, used my inhaler like mad, and I rarely ever need it these days. And that's 3 days of waiting! I want to get off it as soon as possible, I don't want to not be able to experience the real opiate high anymore, may it be recreationally or medicinally, imagine getting in a severe car accident and all they can do is put you in a controlled fentanyl coma because no amount of morphine / dilaudid / x opiate shots would do anything....

I think you're misunderstanding how binding affinity works, and besides, hyromorphone's isn't that much lower than bupe;, and fentanyl's is even higher than hydromorphone.

As I've said, you're fully capable of concurrently using full agonists on low doses of bupe.
 
God I hope not Oblivioin...when taking low doses of bupe like 2-3mg I can feel my opiate of choice that night(well next day, only that night if it was injected at a dose of 500 micrograms.) I mean, haven't been on it forever but I skipped my Sublingual doses for a couple days and felt pretty freakin' good on 70mg of hydrocodone with 2mg of klonopin...I don't think it will forever destroy your chance of getting a buzz after you get off..On a side note I do know someone who was on 200mg of methadone(sold a little bit of it though) and she said it took her at least a couple of years to feel 'normal' again. Also on it for 8 years though...and if I was only on subs for 3 months there's no doubt on my mind I would be back on something very soon after.
 
Bupe is a weird one even doses 2mg sublingual can totally block opiates for some people I know my 1mg a day sublingual bupe will block any heroin I smoke it has to be slammed just to feel something.
 
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