Suboxone W/D Sux...What About Kratom?

[LopLover]

Ugh that sucks buddy. It's certainly not all phychological because bupe is active in extremely small amounts. In fact in Europe they use sub-milligram doses for pain control. That said length of withdrawal will be the major obstacle instead of intensity. Expect peak symptoms on day 7-10 which will gradually lessen through day 30. The kratom will take the edge off but I wouldn't expect complete relief.

Thanks to all for your info and support! One thing I forgot to mention, which does make a difference with my other medications, although I've been taking it with Sub for years with no problem, and that is I also take Effexor. It's an SNRI, not one of the first new anti-depressants, but one of the first of its' family, which includes a bunch of different meds. I have a lifetime history of unipolar depression; in fact, it wasn't until I went to a mental hospital with a dual diagnosis component and a very bright shrink that I finally got the advice I needed, which was that of course I couldn't get clean, because every time I tried I went back to being unable to live in my own head and skin. This wasn't the first anti-depressant I've been on, but it's worked the longest. Without them, I become "struck suicidal" and either use or try to kill myself. And I do it without any thought--it just happens. This one also keeps me from having panic attacks, something else I get without it. It's one of the reasons they want to see me get off Sub, but personally, my question is why? I've been on them both for years. But it is part of the conversation, and I forgot to mention it.

Thought I'd update all on where I'm at. I decided, for the moment at least, that I'd try to use the kratom to kick the Sub, then taper off the kratom. I still may make an appointment with the clinic and if they're OK with it, maybe go back on Sub. I have such mixed feelings about whether to give the old school try to getting off altogether. This whole hassle reminds me of what I went through on the methadone, and what I've gone through every time I've been strung out, especially once I get to the point that I don't get high and all I get is well. Then the hassle and the anxiety about getting my next dose and being dependent on a drug seems to descend on me like a weight. I'm going to make sure I have enough kratom on hand to carry me through the withdrawals, in case they suddenly ban it.

I took my last Sub dose a week ago Monday, so it's been 6 days. But the dose was so small that I was in withdrawals to some extent for a couple of weeks prior to that. It's also why I've run out a month early with three months of scripts. If I stay on it I'm going to increase my dose until I'm comfortable--to hell with this being half-sick all the time. I don't know what all that is going to do to the time frame of tapering. It certainly hasn't shortened it, that's for sure. You're right about the kratom not completely making me well. My worst w/d symptom is these horrible leg cramps--to call them "restless legs" is kinda like calling--my metaphor barn is empty right now, let's just say they're quite extreme. In addition to several supplements and the kratom, I have a prescription restless legs medicine and some herbal and OTC ones as well, This is a lifelong problem that opiates fix.


I try not to take the kratom until things get really dicey, and then I try to only take the minimum. I can tell it's not the Sub--like I said, I don't really like the way it makes me feel. Way too edgy and not "well" at all. Just makes my legs stop cramping, my nose stop running, and that's about it. Doesn't stop the craving; I've never developed any connections since moving back here, and this is why. If I could reach out and grab it, I would. I don't like to be around people when I'm sick and feel like my skin's crawling, which is how I feel right now. With my other problems I can take a week or two off and not go anywhere, fortunately, so I just told everyone I wasn't feeling good and might be contagious--that works! As I type I go back and forth about what I want to do, as I'm sure you can tell.


What is tianeptine sulfate? Does it help with withdrawal? I just wish this would end, but I wish it would end without being such a hassle! Well, to get out of bed--I wasn't sleeping, just lying there--I took 4 capsules of kratom, 2 of the restless legs pills, and my daily dose of Effexor. My skin is still crawling, but my legs are better and my nose isn't running. I'm going to try to take care of my fur-kids and then figure out the rest of the day. More later...

 

[cj]

Yeah that sounds like sub withdrawal to me. Call your current doc and say your meds got stolen out of your car or whatever you think sounds believable and that you just need enough to get you through until your appointment at the new sub doctor. Or you could up your kratom dose. It doesn't sound like your going to make it safely through a whole month of detox and what's the point even if you do. Your not going to wake up and feel amazing one day that's not how it works after a lifetime of addiction

 

[LopLover]

I agree, cj. It's Sunday night and I'm going to either call the new clinic and make an appointment or call my old doctor and admit I've gone through my scripts early. Some of the things I'm feeling may not be actual withdrawal as much as it's just that, having been on opiates almost my entire life, I've learned to depend upon them to do certain things for me, like regulate my sleep patterns, help keep my body temperature stable, and keep these Godawful leg spasms at bay. It doesn't seem that I should have been in withdrawal this long--from the time I had the dose cut that really put my dose too low to get me well, which was 2 or 3 months ago--to now, when I've actually been off sub completely for about a week. My skin crawls ALL the time, and I don't see that stopping any time soon. If there's truth to what they say about longterm opiate use actually making physical changes in your brain, and I believe there is, 50 years of continuous opiate use probably has damaged or changed my brain chemistry. I've also had a couple of pretty severe brain damaging events that may have had a permanent effect as well. In one of them, an overdose, my brain was without oxygen for almost five minutes before they restarted my heart. I was in a coma for several days and noticed afterward certain specific areas where my cognitive abilities were not what they had been prior. Personally, I wish we had a methadone program where I live. It actually has less effect on the liver than Suboxone does, better pain relief, and if something happens that requires pain relief I don't have to worry about things like precipitated withdrawal. But the closest one is a couple of hours away, and I don't want to either move or spent 4 hours a day going back and forth to a clinic. So it's going to have to be Sub. I don't know who to talk to first, the new clinic or my old doctor. I've been with him so long I feel like I owe it to him, and eventually he's going to have to send my records anyway. But since he said he was for sure retiring, maybe it's better to just make an appointment and get on the new clinic. When I talked to them when they were still an hour or so away, they said they had to make sure my insurance would pay and then they never got back to me. This time I'll be on top of it, however, and I don't see why Medicare would have a problem when they've been paying for the past ten years. Does anybody have information on Medicare? I'm not eligible for Medicaid as I make a little too much money when all my income is added together, plus I part-own a family farm. I've never had any problem with Medicare, though, so I don't know why I would right now. I'm glad at least that I feel like I've made a decision anyway. I hope nothing comes up that would interfere with what I want to do...

 

[oldhippytony]

I've read through this thread entirely and I'm watching closely, paying particular attention to the extent of your withdrawal, in part because I've been .5 or less suboxone daily now for quite some time. I agree with cj in that your symptoms appear to be classic bupe w'dwl. I'm an old hippy myself with a significant history of opiate abuse. My understanding is that you've gone over a week (today being 11/21/17) since your last dose and at that time your *weekly* dosage was 1 mg. If my math is correct, that's about .25 every other day. That's less than my daily intake which is about .33 on average, and slowly declining. Why not call both your (retiring) sub doc and be truthful, along with calling the new nearby clinic for an appointment? At .25 every other day, I don't think your current doctor would suspect you of diversion.

Finally, I've used kratom before and found it wildly underwhelming. I bring up kratom only to note that I've read about pesticides being used in *some* circumstances, which would be an issue for me if my liver functioning were compromised. I'm no expert on kratom, take what I write with a grain but know I'm rooting for you, regardless of your path.

 

[LopLover]

Yeah that sounds like sub withdrawal to me. Call your current doc and say your meds got stolen out of your car or whatever you think sounds believable and that you just need enough to get you through until your appointment at the new sub doctor. Or you could up your kratom dose. It doesn't sound like your going to make it safely through a whole month of detox and what's the point even if you do. Your not going to wake up and feel amazing one day that's not how it works after a lifetime of addiction

And that was what I was so hoping for, to wake up one day and feel amazing! But you're right--it's just not in the cards, I'm afraid. At least I took some steps today. I texted my old doctor and asked to see him sooner than my scheduled appointment. He didn't ask why and I didn't volunteer, but he knows by now that when I do that it means I've run through my script too fast. So I'm seeing him Monday, which is only 6 days away instead of a month. He didn't know about the new clinic here and he doesn't think much of them. I don't much care who writes my scripts as long as someone does, and they give me enough to make me reasonably comfortable. I haven't called the clinic yet, and I'm probably going to wait until I see my doctor. Now that I know my decision is to stay on it, that makes everything in pursuit of my goal different. I'm still using the least amount of kratom possible, especially when those muscle spasms start up in my legs. As time goes on, I like kratom less and less, but it does stop the worst symptoms. It's going to be a shitty week, though, I'm afraid. Believe me, if I knew anybody with anything that would help me out, I'd be asking for it. It's probably a good thing that I don't. Anyway, we'll see what happens...

 

[cj]

I'm not saying it's impossible to get off bupe it you'll be sick forever or anything just that you better be ready for way if you decide to fully get off.

 

[xstayfadedx]

I'm not saying it's impossible to get off bupe it you'll be sick forever or anything just that you better be ready for way if you decide to fully get off.

Getting off it sucks. Also vomiting and I felt like I was tripping when I was tapering off. However, I did...

 

[LopLover]

Someone had asked if I knew more about the treatment center that claims to get people off high methadone doses by switching them to shorter-acting opiates until the methadone is out of their system. I looked it up--snip no advertisingThey're all over the east coast, it appears, and they're a bit cagey on the real details of their procedures. It sounds like they use a lot of medication to achieve comfort; benzos, shorter-acting opiates including Suboxone, which I don't quite get. They don't say how they avoid precipitated withdrawal--I've experienced that and hope to never ever do so again. But I remember the ads I saw, and I'm sure this is the place. It's going to be a rough week waiting to see my doctor. And even then, I don't know what he's going to do--I'm hoping and guessing that he's going to write me another script, and praying that he will increase my dose enough that I'm not sick all the time. I've already got full-fledged craving and the compulsion to use is back. I think I can hold out a week, maybe, but should anyone come up and offer me a bag or some pills, and I feel like I do right now,all bets are off. So I'm going to get off and try to actually sleep...

 

[cj]

I wouldn't go anywhere that wouldn't tell me there basic detox protocal up front

 

[Jabberwocky]

Agreed. It is really really important to thoroughly vet treatment providers, and to know what to look for. Generally speaking private detox facilities are inferior to those attached to a major hospital, especially university hospitals. I’d recommend not using a private center and opting for something run by a legit hospital or non-profit (sadly there are next to no non-profits in the recovery industry, as they is just too much money to be made).

Honestly I’ve had much better luck managing the detox on an outpatient basis though. If you can get a doctor who will give you the right comfort meds (for coming off buprenorphine this includes clonidine, gabapentin and diazepam). If you’re already at a low dose this makes even more sense.

Inpatient is nice because they manage your meds for you and at least in theory you should have access to all the right meds you need, but they very expensive if you don’t have the right insurance and as long as you have a safe and relatively healthy living environment there’s no reason someone couldn’t do it at home.

What meds and/or drugs are you using ATM again OP? And at what dosage?

Also, what is causing you to want to detox?

Other than 12 deep stuff, what other support do you have in all this (in terms of friends/family, professional therapy, etc)?

 

[cj]

Agreed. It is really really important to thoroughly vet treatment providers, and to know what to look for. Generally speaking private detox facilities are inferior to those attached to a major hospital, especially university hospitals. I’d recommend not using a private center and opting for something run by a legit hospital or non-profit (sadly there are next to no non-profits in the recovery industry, as they is just too much money to be made).

Honestly I’ve had much better luck managing the detox on an outpatient basis though. If you can get a doctor who will give you the right comfort meds (for coming off buprenorphine this includes clonidine, gabapentin and diazepam). If you’re already at a low dose this makes even more sense.

Inpatient is nice because they manage your meds for you and at least in theory you should have access to all the right meds you need, but they very expensive if you don’t have the right insurance and as long as you have a safe and relatively healthy living environment there’s no reason someone couldn’t do it at home.

What meds and/or drugs are you using ATM again OP? And at what dosage?

Also, what is causing you to want to detox?

Other than 12 deep stuff, what other support do you have in all this (in terms of friends/family, professional therapy, etc)?

I will say that finding ba provider willing to write an admitted drug addict a benzo without a prior relationship is a tough sell. The other meds should never be a problem but discrimination is a thing so horror stories never surprise me. I think if I had to do all my detox experience over again I would stay home for the opiate kicks and gone to detox or a hospital for the benzos. Having a grand nal seizure at home is a bad situation

 

[LopLover]

Update and query on the Sub-kratom saga: I have 5 or 6 days until I see my old doctor who I assume will prescribe at least enough Sub to keep me OK until I get on the clinic or he'll write me and agree to keep seeing me as self-pay. When he officially retired in May, he quit all insurance billing so I've been seeing him for cash since then--he keeps it totally affordable and I'd stay with him indefinitely if he's willing to do that. For the past several years, till my taper got really low, I only had to see him every 3 months, and maybe we'd go back to that. We'll have to see what happens. Here's one thing that just occurred to me: precipitated withdrawal. I don't really want to go into the kratom, particularly since I don't want to admit just how long ago I ran out, and don't want to risk precipitated withdrawal. I've never heard of it with kratom, but then again, my situation is pretty unusual. I'm thinking that I'll quit it a couple of days before I see him just in case. Has anybody ever gone onto Sub after daily kratom? Does it cause precipitated withdrawals? Any info would be great...

Something interesting about my withdrawals that came up today. I was having one of those days where I don't want to get off the couch--being disabled I get those. As long as I didn't move and just stayed there, I didn't have any symptoms, even though I usually have to take some kratom first thing. EVentually I had to get up and do some things, and some of my symptoms came back, of course, but some of the worst ones, like the leg cramping, stayed away. Might I be actually getting past the worst of the withdrawal? Or is it likelier to be that enough kratom is staying in my system that it holds a little longer? It was a beautiful experience, for a while, that's for sure. Not great enough to change my mind about staying on Sub, but nice. I guess I'm going to keep up what I'm doing till I see the doctor. But I definitely hope I can go a couple of days without kratom before I se him...More later...

 

[LopLover]

Someone had asked if I knew more about the treatment center that claims to get people off high methadone doses by switching them to shorter-acting opiates until the methadone is out of their system. I looked it up--snip no advertisingThey're all over the east coast, it appears, and they're a bit cagey on the real details of their procedures.

Sorry, somebody had asked and I completely forgot! I was just excited to have hunted it down online without knowing the name. I'll think next time!

 

[Jabberwocky]

If I were you I wouldn't work with the doctor who gave you the ultimatum. That is very poor medicine, even if their heart was in the right place.

So you got called out by the doctor for filling an old buprenorphine script from another doctor, sort of double dipping? That means you need more help, not that you should get prevented from accessing outpatient treatment. Fucking hate that "tough love" mentality. Such a cop out on the part of medical professionals.

Anyways, how are you doing now with the meds and recovery?

 

[FLA]

If I were you I wouldn't work with the doctor who gave you the ultimatum. That is very poor medicine, even if their heart was in the right place.

So you got called out by the doctor for filling an old buprenorphine script from another doctor, sort of double dipping? That means you need more help, not that you should get prevented from accessing outpatient treatment. Fucking hate that "tough love" mentality. Such a cop out on the part of medical professionals.

Anyways, how are you doing now with the meds and recovery?

Yes, I didn't want to say the dreaded DS words. I could still find a bupe provider on the SAMSHA site but after that withdrawal I'm not motivated to at all.

Doing much, much better. Thanks for asking TPD! Your advice has been invaluable.

 

[Jabberwocky]

As long as you feel like you're on the right track, that's really what counts. Thanks for the update.

 

[FLA]

If I were you I wouldn't work with the doctor who gave you the ultimatum. That is very poor medicine, even if their heart was in the right place.

So you got called out by the doctor for filling an old buprenorphine script from another doctor, sort of double dipping? That means you need more help, not that you should get prevented from accessing outpatient treatment. Fucking hate that "tough love" mentality. Such a cop out on the part of medical professionals.

Anyways, how are you doing now with the meds and recovery?

Since it's you, you can tell me if I'm getting myself in trouble. My wife controls the clonazepam with a lock box. I can usually get 2 2mg indian ones after 6 PM. I usually take between 300 - 600 adrafinil in the morning. After I wake up a little I take between 4 - 6 grams of white maeng da. I'm thinking of cutting it out gradually because I'm not convinced it's doing much for me anymore. My worst habit is tianeptine in sulfate form. I keep it below 300mg. And of course there's the occasional bong toke just to put these things into perspective.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Are you trying to just do maintenance with they substance or get off them? Sorry, just wanted to clarify what you're goals are. It's yours show! Glad to to hear your wife is supportive though. Having family help dose certain meds can be helpful (it can cut both ways of course, but it's just good to hear your spouse is supportive).

 

[FLA]

Are you trying to just do maintenance with they substance or get off them? Sorry, just wanted to clarify what you're goals are. It's yours show! Glad to to hear your wife is supportive though. Having family help dose certain meds can be helpful (it can cut both ways of course, but it's just good to hear your spouse is supportive).

More maintenance. I know I should cut some of it out but it's such a relief to be sleeping a little finally.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think it’s better for you to do what you need to take care of yourself. You can worry about getting off when you’ve stabilized down the road. What meds are you taking these days?