Suboxone W/D Sux...What About Kratom?

[LopLover]

Greetings, all! I put what I thought was the most crucial info and question into the header in hopes of getting some feedback. I'm a retread--was a member way back when, 10 or more years ago and trying to quit Oxy & Tramadol. Prolly should start from the beginning: I'm a child of the 60's, and still a hippie in many ways--vegetarian and sometime vegan. (Going full vegan is work, so I backslide into yogurt or cheese sometimes) I'm going to put the real reason I'm here first, then add my story if people want to know more, OK? I hate to bore people, but as a writer, I do tend to be wordy.

Here's my current situation: Been on Suboxone for about 10 years, pretty successfully. Everyone who knows me thinks of me as a "recovering" person, as I do go to AA for F2F support. Nobody there knows anything about Sub maintenance, and only a few few people know I'm still on it, just because it isn't anyone's business, not that I'm ashamed of it. I would have been happy to just stay on it for the rest of my life, which isn't going to be all that long, most likely, considering my medical problems, but my doctor is retiring and there's no other provider here. The closest is an hour away, and they don't impress me much. They only care about the money, so they try to make you come in all the time so they can get more money. Hard for me as I don't drive and have to get a friend or relative to take me, which is an all-day proposition, pretty much. And I'm on Medicare, which is always changing.

So I've been detoxing for a couple of years and am down to a ridiculously low dose. It would seem that I should be able to walk away now, but every time I go into pretty severe withdrawals, cravings, etc. And the w/d last for weeks, at least the last time I tried to completely quit I was sick for weeks before I cried to my doctor and asked to get back on a low dose. In the meantime, I discovered kratom, which is legal where I live, and gave it a try. A small dose of it works to take away my w/d symptoms, although it doesn't get me high. (Yeah, I used it the first time to try to get high--what can I say? I'm a dope fiend, and even though I claim to be in recovery and don't drink, I've periodically tried other meds or combos to get an effect.) It's never really got me high, but it does take away those muscle spasms and 'bone pain' that I always get when I get to about my third day without Subs. Since it's short-acting--I use capsules and take about 4 on a day with no Sub in my system, then another 2 at night if the symptoms are back and I can tell I'm not going to sleep. BTW, I also work out as best I can with my lung problems, do yoga, meditate, and mostly live as a recovering person. My little slips I keep to myself, since there's nobody in my immediate life who could relate. Which is why I'm here...

My thought is to try to quit the long-acting Sub with the short-acting kratom, then taper off it. It seems that since it acts for such a short time, cutting the dose over maybe 10 days to nothing should only give me a few days, rather than months, of withdrawal. I don't know anyone who has done this, and I'm hoping I can get some feedback from folks here. I'm NOT trying to get high--my eventual goal is to be opiate-free and see where that leaves me. I'm also a chronic pain patient, but have been on opiates, including Sub, for so many years that I have no idea if my non-medication stuff, like the yoga and all, is enough to give me a quality of life I can accept. If not, I'll make decisions from there, but I want to get there first and give it a go. My regular doctor (not Sub prescriber) is totally excited that I'm getting off Sub, and my subscriber has already given me 6 months of extra time since he officially retired, but he wants to really retire in May and either I need a new doctor or clinic, or be off Sub. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. The longer version of my drug history is below--anyone who wants to read it is welcome, but it's no different than most people (my age, anyway) so it's not necessary to follow the present situation. Again greetings to all! BTW, I'm Sherry My screen name is LopLover because I love--and rescue--long-eared bunnies...

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Here's the long story--you can read it or not. I'm a child of the 60's, and began smoking and drinking at 12-14. Then discovered weed and LSD, neither of which I really liked. Founds reds and yellows, which I did, and a thing called Tussionex cough syrup, which would still be my favorite drug if I could get it. Went full-time into IV use in early 70's, mostly heroin, although experimented with shooting pills, coke, crank, etc. First methadone clinic after 7 or 8 years, then after about 5 years I got kicked off the clinic--they had decided, in their wisdom, that nobody should be on the clinic for longer than a year. Later they changed that, but by then I had long since moved.) moved to a place w/o a clinic and detoxed mostly forever, it seemed like! Did whatever I could to feel human, including massive amounts of alcohol. Then years of in and out of jail, prison, and rehabs, using whatever I could during 'out,' including quite a stretch of crystal meth use, as that was the only drug available where I lived at the time. I have lots of experience from those days on abcesses, home doctoring, OD home treatment, do-it-yourself withdrawal tips and tricks, etc. Hope to be able to be useful in that regard here, maybe?

Began the revolving prison door shuffle. One prescription forgery beef and a million parole violations and various misdemeanors cost me a number of years. During the months and occasional years I was out, I used whatever was around. Eventually I tired of the system and cleaned up long enough to get off parole. Stayed clean in a 12-Step program for about 5 years, then fell back into it. That's a longer and more boring story than I want to go into here--eventually I hope to make some friends and PM our stuff back and forth, but this is just a general intro. Got caught driving on heroin--boo!--but not in possession, yay!, so the law gave me 30 days and long term treatment, where I was finally diagnosed with severe depression I'd had from childhood, and put me on anti-depressants. Made me able to live in my own skin for the first time; that is, without heroin.

But eventually I needed painkillers for a chronic back issue and got into OxyContin and its' friends and relatives, which I combined with benzoes. I'd given up the needle for good, thank God, so it was only pills this time. But it got bad and Suboxone was just coming into the picture. I found a doctor and got on Suboxone, and went back to the 12-Step world for support, since I didn't really have any friends or family who could support me. For the next 10 years, things were stable in that regard, but I developed other, old-people illnesses that changed my world. First I was diagnosed with cirrhosis from hepC and drinking, and given a 2-5 year termination date. During that time, I had a severe pneumonia infection--I knew I had COPD but couldn't quit smoking no matter how hard I tried--and almost died. I'm now on full-time oxygen, can't drive, and my life is quite limited, but I finally got free of tobacco products. So I spend much time at the keyboard, which is why I'm here! In the meantime, I did the new hepC treatment and it cured me, but I still have cirrhosis. Probably not going to die from it, however, since my lungs are much worse than my liver. Now we're at the present, which goes on at the beginning...

Peace. Out. Sherry and the Much-Loved Lop-Eared Furkids

 

[herbavore]

Hey there and welcome back. You've come to the right place as there will be lots of people here that are going the kratom route and also a wealth of information about quitting subs if that is ultimately what you decide to do. What a bummer about the doctor change. No one's medications should involve such problems. I'm going to ship your intro thread over to Sober Living where I think you will get the most response. The Recovery Forums are probably new since you were last here. I'm glad you get support at AA and I hope Bluelight can be a good complement to that. I'm glad you came back.

by the way, are the much loved lop eared furbabies dogs or rabbits? I love both. :D

 

[LopLover]

Thanks for the kind welcome, fellow herbavore! Thank you for moving my thread to where it can do the most good. I guess my main interests are others' experiences with getting off Subs and with using kratom in a conscientious way. I don't need to do the same dance with yet another substance! Just want to get clean off all opiates, give it a while, and re-evaluate, with hopes that I can manage my pain, both existential and physical, in a different manner. BTW, I am a lifelong sufferer of depression, and have been stable of Effexor for about 10 years, by far the longest any anti-depressant has continued to work for me. If I manage to get off all other meds, including pain pills, I may---and heavy on the may, rather than will--re-evaluate that as well. I know that it causes some anhedonia and really suppresses my ability to feel emotions.

And the furbabies are rabbits. I love all animals and have worked in rescue for many years, until I became too sick with old-people diseases like emphysema to do it any more. I love dogs so much, and lost my last to an instant death by stroke a few years ago. In my curtailed life, I can still have a few rabbits, as long as I don't get so many that my landlord gets pissed off. So I keep it at the number 3, and though they don't really like me much--bunnies are unlike dogs in that regard; it's bring treats of stay hon--I love taking care of them and interacting when they feel like it.

 

[cj]

Your theory of switching to a short acting opiate like kratom to get off a long acting opiate like Suboxone is a common intellectual thought but I have yet to hear it work for anyone in practice. After 10 years on sub the brain is just really used to not producing indigenous endorphins. I think long term kratom and a slow taper might be manageable but it's going to take way longer then 10 days on kratom for the transition to be effective. What are the odds you can score comfort meds? Gabapentin, benzo, clonidine? Those will be helpful but I really hate to see someone in poor health go through sub withdrawal because it's brutal and lasts forever. I am in my 20s and a 3mg a day habit put me on my knees in a bad way.

What's your current sub dose?

 

[LopLover]

My Sub dose is 1/4 mg 3x per week, or every other day. It gets a bit murkey because every other day makes it 4 on some weeks and 3 on others. It seems to me I should be able to drop once or twice more and get off. Problem arises because it's so long-acting. While the w/d aren't as intense as, say, heroin or methadone, they never seem to go away. The longest I've gone without getting back on the Sub has been about a month, and I was sicker the last day then I was the first. I started the kratom when they spaced the doses out so far--it was only twice a week for a while and I got the doc to raise it to what it is now. However, I live in a small town, and my doctor, the only prescriber in town, is retiring. He actually already did retire, but since we've been together for about 10 years--I have a very long, extensive addiction history and knew I needed maintenance for longer than most, maybe even the rest of my life--he's treated me as a self-pay for the last 6 months, and says he'll stick with me until May, then he's retiring for good.

Personally I'd be happy to just stay on it except that it complicates some of my other medical care. Since doctors around here have chosen not to learn anything about Sub, they are pretty dismissive of Sub patients as "junkies," with all the stigma that entails. My other options, besides the kratom, are a clinic an hour from here that has a kind of bad reputation as being only in it for the money. I'm on medicare, and they pay most of my doctor and medication expenses now, but I don't know how they'd be with this other clinic. They also want you coming over for groups, etc, so they can get more money, and I don't drive any more. Kratom right now is "filling in the holes" when the Sub dose just doesn't hold me, or I start to get sick on the second or third day. It doesn't get me high but definitely takes away my symptoms. I also take an anti-depressant that I've been on for years, and a restless legs medicine that helps that and helps me sleep.

I just don't really know what to do--don't want to start a new habit on yet another substance, having had habits with most of them already. I understand kratom involves tolerance, which was one of the positives of the Sub--I never needed a higher dose. In fact, I started at 8mg and was down to 4 in two years and never went above that. I've been under 1mg and taking it every other day now for a couple of years trying to taper off it. Obviously I can't ask any of my doctors what to do--they all (except the Sub doc, and he just wants to have a nice retired life, which I get) think that total abstinence is the alpha and the omega. I'm also a chronic pain patient, need I add? 8) Sorry for the long reply. Any feedback would be most welcome...

 

[cj]

That's a bad situation. I'll tell you what I did in a somewhat similar situation. Sub docs like to over-prescribe. It's not uncommon to see people on 24mg a day. So what I did was I would show up for an induction appointment they would write me a two week script at 24mg a day and i would just not go back. That "two week script would last me a year and once I started getting low I would rinse and repeat the process. The doctor never got wise I would just tell him I relapsed not that he cared cause it was about money like you said. So with you being on so little you could get 2 or 3 years worth in one visit possibly.

Your other option is too stop. And well you know what that is going to be like. Or you could get on kratom but I'm not sure how long that is going to stay legal for.

Your in a shit situation I'm sorry I don't have better options

 

[LopLover]

New information! The Sub clinic an hour from here is opening a satellite office in my town. So, that complicates everything, since it makes staying on Sub much less complicated and an easier decision. I agree, cj, that doctors do over-prescribe heavily. The dose I'm on now, 1 mg weekly in every-other-day doses, is a little low, but I was perfectly comfortable on 1 1/2 mg over a week the same way. When I started, I was given 20 mg daily, and learned from the very beginning that it was way over the ceiling, as I could get exactly the same effect at 8 mg, and eventually 4. For a couple of years I saved them up and used them when we started dropping my dose pretty quickly. So of course I ran out eventually. But I've been on less than 2 mg weekly for over a year now--it's just that last little bit that's such a bitch.

I think, since I have about 3 weeks till I see my current doctor and only one more dose of Sub, that I'm going to really try just using the absolute minimum of kratom I need to stay out of withdrawals, and maybe even start cutting that down. There is a treatment center somewhere (Florida I think) where they claim to be very successful at detoxing people from high methadone doses by switching them to high doses of morphine or Dilaudaid--very short acting--and once the methadone is completely out of their system, doing a pretty quick taper from the short-acting opiate using a lot of comfort meds. It's inpatient and can keep people up to 60 days, depending on insurance, and they claim some success. Getting someone off a high methadone dose is, in my opinion, the worst ever. It literally took me over 2 years after I got off the clinic before I actually felt like a human being, and I had detoxed down to about 20 mg before I left the clinic. (Of course, I was already using heroin and benzoes, so wasn't really trying to get clean anyway.)

I'll keep posting to let folks know how things are going. It's nice to know I have an option for staying on Sub, though. I'm also afraid that kratom is going to become illegal where I live, which is why I'm not crazy about getting dependent on it. I live in a state where marijuana is legal, and I've tried it, but never really liked it much anyway, and it intensifies withdrawal symptoms in my opinion. CBD oil, though, does seem to relax me and help my chronic pain some, but not so much that I'd consider it as a replacement drug. Thanks for your feedback! Peace. Out. Sherry

 

[cj]

That's good news about the satellite office. It's good to have options. That's interesting about the place in Florida I haven't ever heard of anything like that but it sounds promising.

 

[simco]

Hey, Sherry...thanks for sharing your story with us. Anything we can do to support you, please let us know!

Given what you've been through, I have no doubt that you could get out from under the subs. And kratom might help. But at the risk of sounding defeatist, with that new clinic opening up, would it not make more sense simply to stay on your low-dose sub maintenance? If you really want to get off of it, that's another matter. But maybe it would be worth some real pro/con weighing? I know the stigma you mentioned all to well. But really, that's other people's problem. It's your life...what would--as you put it--help you live inside your own skin more comfortably?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Stick with doing what you feel like will ensure your best chances for success in recovery. There is nothing wrong with staying on a reasonable dose of buprenorphine, particularly if it isn't too difficult in terms of accessibility (commute and cost).

Buprenorphine will probably work better than kratom for cravings, primarily because of its longer half-life. With kratom use for maintenance I think most people would probably have to dose more than once a day (perhaps even up to three or four times), and that kind of thing doesn't lend itself as well as something you only have to take once a day.

The best reason other than half-life to stay on buprenorphine is the future of kratom's legality. If it ever becomes illegal in your area (as some states/counties have banned it even if it's not entirely illegal on the federal level) you'll be kind of fucked. That kind of situation doesn't lend itself as well as that of using a legal substance like a buprenorphine prescription.

Getting off stuff like methadone and buprenorphine is not walk in the park, but with the right planning and resources it's not nearly as hard as most people realize. Only problem is that most people don't understand how to get the kind of support they need, let alone have the understand and foresight needed to make a manageable plan. But it's totally possible to get off it with very little discomfort.

So I'm just trying to say that worrying about how you'll get off buprenorphine isn't a very good reason to stop using it. Just as long as you plan ahead and educate yourself as much as possible (for instances through discussing it all on BL) about how buprenorphine works and how to manage the detox from it, there is no reason for you to really suffer much at all getting off of it.

Keep us updated OP. Glad to hear you're doing well. How much kratom are you using to stave off w/d?

 

[LopLover]

I took the last dose of Sub this morning that I will get until I see my doctor in 2 weeks . One of the reasons I'm most likely going to stay on it if things work out with the new clinic is that it gives me energy. Between my hypoxia from the COPD and general fatigue from the cirrhosis, I don't have much energy, and the days I take Sub it really helps. The kratom, while it does keep me from going into w/d, is a little sedating if anything. Usually I only take 2-4 capsules--they're the big 00 caps and the active ingredient is listed at 2.1% for the kind I usually order. (I'll look up the description, if anybody wants to know.) I've tried pretty much every form of it; powder, leaves, extract and capsules, and like the caps best. I can avoid the taste and get a pretty standardized dose with them. Usually if I'm not sick yet I take 2 caps, and if I'm heading into withdrawals I take 4. I've taken as many as 6 at a time, but that just made me very sleepy. If I decide to stay on the Sub, my PCP doctor won't be happy, but I really don't care what he thinks. He knows nothing about addiction or mental health. Or, for that matter, chronic pain. The only docs whose opinion matters, besides my shrink who is my Sub prescriber (He's the one retiring.) are my pulmonologist and my liver doctor, and neither of them seems to care. They both kinda know that I'm not really long for this world and that quality of life is my greatest concern. I'm too old and sick to have to impress anyone by kicking Suboxone. As far as the kratom goes, it helps stop the withdrawals from the Sub, but other than that it doesn't do much for me. Some people really love it, but I don't get much out of it except well. So I'm going to check out the clinic as soon as I talk to my doc who's retiring. I'll keep everyone updated... Namaste~

 

[Jabberwocky]

Does the naloxone in Suboxone have a negative affect on your cirrhosis? From a cursory research it seems like it doesn't, but for some reason I though it was best avoided.

In terms of kratom, there is some evidence it is tough on the liver. Be cause taking kratom if you have cirrhosis. Definitely try and stay on the buprenorhine as opposed to that IMO.

It must be challenging managing your medical conditions and getting helpful treatment in terms of substance use disorder and mental health stuff.

 

[cj]

Ugh I'm sorry your going through this. It doesn't sound like you have very much support and that's sad. Your gp can kick rocks he isn't the one who has to kick with a myriad of health complications. I don't think kratom is a good idea with all your co occuring health problems because there isn't any research on it's interaction with other medicine

 

[LopLover]

Hi, mods, I'm going to try and answer your questions if possible. One reason they did want me to get off Sub was the interaction with my liver, but now that I'm free of hepC, my liver symptoms are better. I've been on Sub for about 10 years and it doesn't seem to have damaged my liver. I agree that kratom might be far worse, as less is known about its' effects on the liver. And frankly, I have to ingest a lot more kratom to not have withdrawals than I do Sub. My Sub/naloxone dose is very small, so I'm really not taking in that much of it. I'm also not sure if the fact that it's taken directly into the bloodstream through the mouth tissues keeps it away from the liver, compared to something that is swallowed.

It IS difficult dealing with so many medical problems at once, particularly when medications for one thing can interact badly with meds for another. Add chronic pain from kyphosis and scoliosis that I can't have surgery for because my lungs won't tolerate the anesthesia, and it gets really crazy. I believe that I'm going to look into the new clinic and see about staying on Suboxone. If I can do that, and keep the dose reasonably low, I think that makes the most sense in my case. Right now I did a bad thing and took 3 months worth of Sub in two months--and won't be seeing my prescriber for almost a month. So I'm not sure whether to just call him and be honest with him, or first talk to the clinic, or try just to hold it together with kratom until my appointment.

One thing about this clinic is from what I've heard about it, it's the Suboxone equivalent of a "juice bar," as methadone programs are called in my area that are only after the money. That's actually fine with me, as I don't require a lot of hand-holding, but I don't want to make an appointment with them and have it look like I'm double-dipping, since I'm supposed to still have some Sub in hand from my other doctor. Oh the tangled webs we weave, when we endeavor to deceive...

 

[cj]

Your on such a low sub dose that I don't think you have anything to worry about with "double dipping" especially if the doc writes 3 months worth on one prescription

 

[LopLover]

Latest update on my Sub/kratom situation: I realized it's actually almost a month before I see my regular Sub doctor again. I took my last dose of Sub a couple of days ago and have been using just enough kratom to stave off the worst of withdrawals--realistically with such a low dose I shouldn't have much in the way of withdrawals, but I do. Much of it is psychological, I'm sure; that and the fact that I've been on one opiate or another for decades, so my brain and body don't know how to function without them. I don't want my current doc to know that I went through my script that much faster than I should have, especially when getting ready to go on a new clinic, so for the moment I'm trying to use the kratom to get past the worst of things and see if I can get drug-free and well--not in withdrawals anyway--before my next appointment with him. It's possible, though not likely, that I might be able to get clear and feel good; being off everything would make my life much less complicated. I don't really like the way kratom feels, to be honest, so I don't think I'll be tempted to take more than just what I have to. That's the story for today, anyway. I'm glad I don't have to work or do much of anything any more (because of my other sicknesses) because it seems to make me feel fuzzy in a not really good way. We shall see what happens...I kind of wish I could get a script for a benzoe so I can kick the anxiety and insomnia, but adding other drugs on top of what I have going on already is probably a bad idea. 8) ~Namaste~

 

[cj]

Ugh that sucks buddy. It's certainly not all phychological because bupe is active in extremely small amounts. In fact in Europe they use sub-milligram doses for pain control. That said length of withdrawal will be the major obstacle instead of intensity. Expect peak symptoms on day 7-10 which will gradually lessen through day 30. The kratom will take the edge off but I wouldn't expect complete relief.

 

[LopLover]

That's my thought as well. I know that I probably can call my current prescriber and admit I ran out early if it comes down to it. I've been at this very low dose for a long time--upwards of a year, if that helps at all. We'll see... Also, I found an article about kratom on HuffPo, and don't know where to put the link, so I'll give it to you: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ncid=newsltushpmglifestyle__Lifestyle__111617
Sorry--I don't know how to do it other than copy the whole link. It's a pretty scary article, and you're right--with the questionable future of kratom, I'd rather be on something I know is going to remain legal if I'm going to remain on something.

 

[cj]

Yeah I'm pretty sure kratom is on the way to a total ban unfortunately. The FDA is going to start seizures at the border apparently

 

[FLA]

Greetings, all! I put what I thought was the most crucial info and question into the header in hopes of getting some feedback. I'm a retread--was a member way back when, 10 or more years ago and trying to quit Oxy & Tramadol. Prolly should start from the beginning: I'm a child of the 60's, and still a hippie in many ways--vegetarian and sometime vegan. (Going full vegan is work, so I backslide into yogurt or cheese sometimes) I'm going to put the real reason I'm here first, then add my story if people want to know more, OK? I hate to bore people, but as a writer, I do tend to be wordy.

Here's my current situation: Been on Suboxone for about 10 years, pretty successfully. Everyone who knows me thinks of me as a "recovering" person, as I do go to AA for F2F support. Nobody there knows anything about Sub maintenance, and only a few few people know I'm still on it, just because it isn't anyone's business, not that I'm ashamed of it. I would have been happy to just stay on it for the rest of my life, which isn't going to be all that long, most likely, considering my medical problems, but my doctor is retiring and there's no other provider here. The closest is an hour away, and they don't impress me much. They only care about the money, so they try to make you come in all the time so they can get more money. Hard for me as I don't drive and have to get a friend or relative to take me, which is an all-day proposition, pretty much. And I'm on Medicare, which is always changing.

So I've been detoxing for a couple of years and am down to a ridiculously low dose. It would seem that I should be able to walk away now, but every time I go into pretty severe withdrawals, cravings, etc. And the w/d last for weeks, at least the last time I tried to completely quit I was sick for weeks before I cried to my doctor and asked to get back on a low dose. In the meantime, I discovered kratom, which is legal where I live, and gave it a try. A small dose of it works to take away my w/d symptoms, although it doesn't get me high. (Yeah, I used it the first time to try to get high--what can I say? I'm a dope fiend, and even though I claim to be in recovery and don't drink, I've periodically tried other meds or combos to get an effect.) It's never really got me high, but it does take away those muscle spasms and 'bone pain' that I always get when I get to about my third day without Subs. Since it's short-acting--I use capsules and take about 4 on a day with no Sub in my system, then another 2 at night if the symptoms are back and I can tell I'm not going to sleep. BTW, I also work out as best I can with my lung problems, do yoga, meditate, and mostly live as a recovering person. My little slips I keep to myself, since there's nobody in my immediate life who could relate. Which is why I'm here...

My thought is to try to quit the long-acting Sub with the short-acting kratom, then taper off it. It seems that since it acts for such a short time, cutting the dose over maybe 10 days to nothing should only give me a few days, rather than months, of withdrawal. I don't know anyone who has done this, and I'm hoping I can get some feedback from folks here. I'm NOT trying to get high--my eventual goal is to be opiate-free and see where that leaves me. I'm also a chronic pain patient, but have been on opiates, including Sub, for so many years that I have no idea if my non-medication stuff, like the yoga and all, is enough to give me a quality of life I can accept. If not, I'll make decisions from there, but I want to get there first and give it a go. My regular doctor (not Sub prescriber) is totally excited that I'm getting off Sub, and my subscriber has already given me 6 months of extra time since he officially retired, but he wants to really retire in May and either I need a new doctor or clinic, or be off Sub. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. The longer version of my drug history is below--anyone who wants to read it is welcome, but it's no different than most people (my age, anyway) so it's not necessary to follow the present situation. Again greetings to all! BTW, I'm Sherry My screen name is LopLover because I love--and rescue--long-eared bunnies...

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Here's the long story--you can read it or not. I'm a child of the 60's, and began smoking and drinking at 12-14. Then discovered weed and LSD, neither of which I really liked. Founds reds and yellows, which I did, and a thing called Tussionex cough syrup, which would still be my favorite drug if I could get it. Went full-time into IV use in early 70's, mostly heroin, although experimented with shooting pills, coke, crank, etc. First methadone clinic after 7 or 8 years, then after about 5 years I got kicked off the clinic--they had decided, in their wisdom, that nobody should be on the clinic for longer than a year. Later they changed that, but by then I had long since moved.) moved to a place w/o a clinic and detoxed mostly forever, it seemed like! Did whatever I could to feel human, including massive amounts of alcohol. Then years of in and out of jail, prison, and rehabs, using whatever I could during 'out,' including quite a stretch of crystal meth use, as that was the only drug available where I lived at the time. I have lots of experience from those days on abcesses, home doctoring, OD home treatment, do-it-yourself withdrawal tips and tricks, etc. Hope to be able to be useful in that regard here, maybe?

Began the revolving prison door shuffle. One prescription forgery beef and a million parole violations and various misdemeanors cost me a number of years. During the months and occasional years I was out, I used whatever was around. Eventually I tired of the system and cleaned up long enough to get off parole. Stayed clean in a 12-Step program for about 5 years, then fell back into it. That's a longer and more boring story than I want to go into here--eventually I hope to make some friends and PM our stuff back and forth, but this is just a general intro. Got caught driving on heroin--boo!--but not in possession, yay!, so the law gave me 30 days and long term treatment, where I was finally diagnosed with severe depression I'd had from childhood, and put me on anti-depressants. Made me able to live in my own skin for the first time; that is, without heroin.

But eventually I needed painkillers for a chronic back issue and got into OxyContin and its' friends and relatives, which I combined with benzoes. I'd given up the needle for good, thank God, so it was only pills this time. But it got bad and Suboxone was just coming into the picture. I found a doctor and got on Suboxone, and went back to the 12-Step world for support, since I didn't really have any friends or family who could support me. For the next 10 years, things were stable in that regard, but I developed other, old-people illnesses that changed my world. First I was diagnosed with cirrhosis from hepC and drinking, and given a 2-5 year termination date. During that time, I had a severe pneumonia infection--I knew I had COPD but couldn't quit smoking no matter how hard I tried--and almost died. I'm now on full-time oxygen, can't drive, and my life is quite limited, but I finally got free of tobacco products. So I spend much time at the keyboard, which is why I'm here! In the meantime, I did the new hepC treatment and it cured me, but I still have cirrhosis. Probably not going to die from it, however, since my lungs are much worse than my liver. Now we're at the present, which goes on at the beginning...

Peace. Out. Sherry and the Much-Loved Lop-Eared Furkids

I can identify with you in so many ways especially age-wise. I'm sorry you're having so many health issues. I had to quit buprenorphine around 6 weeks ago. You're certainly a lot more stoic about it than I could be. I think my WD's should be much less than they are now but I tend to bitch about the slightest discomfort and be angry or irritable that I have to deal with it. Patience is definitely not my strong suit. My wife intercepted my benzo's so she allows me one indian 2mg pill a night. It's better than nothing and as much as it pains me to say so and admit she's right, maybe it's the best way to avoid another painful addiction. I don't know if kratom has helped much or not to be honest because I don't perceive much from it. I keep it to once a day now to keep it from becoming a another problem. For all I know all I'm getting from it now is just psychologically knowing I've done something that many folks on BL say is somewhat effective in buprenorphine withdrawal. One thing that really worked for me for a very short period was tianeptine sulfate but it's a serious double-edged sword with tolerance building fast and the temptation to increase the dose being almost irresistible for people like a lot of us on here. I was warned about it here, found out it's true, and am trying to wean it down. I'm glad I found out the truth about it only 2 weeks into it. If you just needed a brief respite from your suffering or were desperate to sleep you may want to cautiously consider it. But if I was you I'd seriously consider staying on buprenorphine indefinitely. It's just not in the cards for me. I can't go back now. Not with this much time off it.