Bupe Suboxone, Tapering, Quiting, Methadone ? The Truth good and bad ! Shoulda just kicked

[jamesBrown]

^I merged your last 2 posts into 1 (didn't edit anything else).

Try not to double post, if you want to add more just edit the first one and add the information in. If you want to quote someone else just start a new post, copy the quote, edit the first and paste it in... that's what I do at least when quoting multiple people.

Ahhh....thanks for that quick tip man. I shall never double post again!!!

 

[CitioKid]

Rewind to 9/30-



Your use of the present-progressive tense in "Im not actually "off"" certainly implies you were actively using daily at that time. I don't really care how long you've been off, I was just showing you what you said.

What I *AM* concerned about is all your statements on PAWS. Its great if you don't experience AW symptoms and PAWS but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people will do so by you sharing your statements over and over in this manner, you aren't preventing them from experiencing this, just potentially giving them false hope and overconfidence until that harsh realization that very few people share YOUR experience.

I would like to see this addressed further.

And I'd like to understand why, the whole time I've been on this forum (about 20 days) you failed to mention, in our sub dialogue, that you were not taking your suboxone at present and hadn't for many days. And why you would cease taking a medication you enjoy so much if it could be detrimental to your parole to do so (clean drug test) and when it's readily available and surely prescribed to you in an amount that would last you every day (if you take less than one 2mg pill a day)??

Because I think instilling in people a belief that they can take 1.5mg of bupe a day, "just" for the euphoric effect, antidepressant qualities (like any opiate), and then stop for three weeks and experience no withdrawal, is not harm reduction as it simply cannot be true.

imvho

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I don't know if I'd say its impossible, but it seems like it wouldn't work for most people that way. I've read about a lot of people trying to come off 1-2mg and having lots of problems with withdrawal and PAWS.

Let's not make this needlessly adversarial though... if we just start calling people liars and shit outright, this thread will cease to be productive fast.

 

[jamesBrown]

As I have said before, my suboxone is in no way related to my probation and has no impact on it whatsoever.
I also can guarantee you that trying to help people maintain on there suboxone in a way that may help prevent them from having withdrawals or PAWS and also benefit them through anti-depressant qualities, energy giving qualities, and subtle euphoria(atleast compared to full agonists) is definitely harm reduction. Because there other options are, having to deal with severe withdrawal and or PAWS, and taking too high of a sub dose which can cause side effects on its own and can make the withdrawal process much much longer, and cost more money.
But, for the third time, if you would like to ask me questions about my suboxone use, then please PM me. Unless you have a particular question that you have that is about helping you in some way. In that case, please state your question clearly, politeky, and respectfully, and I will be more than happy to answer.

^I don't know if I'd say its impossible, but it seems like it wouldn't work for most people that way. I've read about a lot of people trying to come off 1-2mg and having lots of problems with withdrawal and PAWS.

Let's not make this needlessly adversarial though... if we just start calling people liars and shit outright, this thread will cease to be productive fast.

Yea, I have talked alot about those people who jump off at 1-2 mg's and why they stil have bad effects. As I have said before, those people usually were taking a much higher dose than 1mg for the majority of there maintanence and when they decided to quit, the tapered down to 1-2 mg's and then jump off. Of course they will have bad withdrawals. That IS NOT the advice I give to people. I tell people to maintain at a dose lower than 2 mg's for the majority of there sub maintanence and then when they want to quit, lower there dose to about 0.2-0.5mg's and stay at that dose for about a month, maybe more, maybe a little less....and then jump off. And sometiems I even reccommend going from 0.3 mg's/day to 0.2mg's every other day for a while and then jump off.
People are ALWAYS confusing my advice with the people who choose to jump off at 1-2mg's after only being on it for a short period of time. I am constantly stressing the importance of maintaining at these tiny 0.3-0.5mg doses for LONG periods of time before jumping off. that is one of the big differences between my methods and the way all the people who say they have jumped off at 1-2mg's with bad experiences. Atleast, when I have asked alot of the people who have jumped off at 1-2mg's and had a bad experience, they all have told me that they were usually at a much higher dose(12-32mg's on average) and then tapered to 1-2mg's for only a few days before jumping off. There is a monumental difference there. Also, I dont reccommend jumping off at 1-2mg's like I said above....i say 0.2-0.5 is a better dose and thats only after you are at that dose for a long time, much longer than most people would think is needed.

 

[PillPoppingAnimal]

Just because suboxone is addictive doesnt mean that someone who takes it is addicted to it. I hope that people have more of an open mind than that.

LOL
no of course not, being addicted to meds doesnt mean your addicted to it...


















sarcasm (for all you people who agree with him)

 

[jamesBrown]

I think what he/she was trying to say is that not all people who take addictive substances are addicted to them. I know that to be a fact....and so do most other people with knowledge of the medical world.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

LOL
no of course not, being addicted to meds doesnt mean your addicted to it...

You seem to not grasp the difference between physical dependence and addiction... the criteria for the latter is quoted in my first post on the last page.

Lots of medications are physically "addictive" but you wouldn't call people addicts who are dependent on them because addiction is more than physical, its social, psychological and arguably spiritual as well.

Oxymetazoline (afrin nasal spray) and Beta Blockers used for hypertension produce rapid physical dependence and a characteristic abstinence syndrome upon cessation.... SSRI's also produce nasty physical dependence and abstinence syndrome but people who take nasal spray, hypertension pills or SSRI's aren't addicts.

 

[gomorrah]

I started methadone to get off suboxone, then quit the methadone after a week. It sucked for a few days, but whatever. Its been 7 months now and I wonder why I quit sometimes, though im still an opportunistic user.

 

[DkBlaze1]

JamesBROWN

this is the last time im ever ever ever saying anything about u or two u seeing as it always derails the threads and such. this doesnt feel like somthing that would b a mistake.. you are very current on posting daily so I find it unlikly that you wouldnt have spoken about ur ending suboxone all together. .. I feel you are feeling some need to b accepted by people on this forum.. BRO UR ALREADY accepted.. You dont need to lie about your use to a bunch of fellow addicts this sorta shit is not only counter productive to you. but can really mislead anyone reading your 17 posts a day.. you are above this. I hope you Start to relize groups are not out to get you. they just see discrepancies in the stuff you say and Alot of it doesnt make medical sence..

so please relize I am super understanding and get you might have been doing these sorta things due to your addiction and were it has brought you in life. ID KNOW I live a lonly shitty life right now all because of heroin. I wish only to help people and talk my truth. I have been outa line with alot of what Ive said to you and others on this forum. diagnosing things is not what I should b doing I now see that and am trying to curb it..

BUt like i said you are accepted. and please just respect other peoples lives and relize that this forum is one of the top ruselts on google when u search suboxone related shit so what we all say really does matter to a degree.. respect the people that accept and respect you enough to read what you say.. I know I didnt hold up to this as well as I could have but we can both only work towards it so Please do..

THank you
BLAZE

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^there's no way to know if he was lying and whether he was or not, calling him one is not productive at all and will just start shit.

 

[DkBlaze1]

^there's no way to know if he was lying and whether he was or not, calling him one is not productive at all and will just start shit.

FIXed and ur right sorry thank u

 

[DkBlaze1]

You seem to not grasp the difference between physical dependence and addiction... the criteria for the latter is quoted in my first post on the last page.

Lots of medications are physically "addictive" but you wouldn't call people addicts who are dependent on them because addiction is more than physical, its social, psychological and arguably spiritual as well.

Oxymetazoline (afrin nasal spray) and Beta Blockers used for hypertension produce rapid physical dependence and a characteristic abstinence syndrome upon cessation.... SSRI's also produce nasty physical dependence and abstinence syndrome but people who take nasal spray, hypertension pills or SSRI's aren't addicts.

'

a few Things.. Alot of people who are hard core trying to get sober think that people on ssri's are addicts.. its just some people are willing to b addicted for that positive effect on there life but when they need to stop it will b negitive. I think they fuck with a ur mind and ur soul and ur abilty to b YOU this isnt really argueable at the core.. in effect the reason people take them are to change these things even if for a positive outcome. Doing it through a way in which you are actully learn somthing, is far far more of the human thing to do and you benifit leaps and bounds by doing the change without pills instead of getting instant gratification which is a huge reason why most addicts get so addicted to shit.


This argument is going to become front and center in the coming years. There soon will b pills for even more everyday things and once people are taking pills for everything then this question will b more talked about. Its pruly two ways of thinking both right to a degree but since there is no middle there will always b a issue.. much like abbortion

 

[PillPoppingAnimal]

You seem to not grasp the difference between physical dependence and addiction... the criteria for the latter is quoted in my first post on the last page.

Lots of medications are physically "addictive" but you wouldn't call people addicts who are dependent on them because addiction is more than physical, its social, psychological and arguably spiritual as well.

Oxymetazoline (afrin nasal spray) and Beta Blockers used for hypertension produce rapid physical dependence and a characteristic abstinence syndrome upon cessation.... SSRI's also produce nasty physical dependence and abstinence syndrome but people who take nasal spray, hypertension pills or SSRI's aren't addicts.

of course i understand...ones mental and the other isnt

but the truth is... if your physically addictive and u stop taking your meds, u will be miserable, mentally and physcially

addiction is addiction, if your body needs a chemical (an addicting one, please lets not go into people on blood pressure meds), you are addicted, maybe not an addict, but addicted none the less

and jamesbrown

no offense, but the reason the medical community says that is cuz if they didnt, they wouldnt be making nearly as much money

and a lil info, to everyone.......

IS ALL BOUT THAT MONEY <SNIP> be saying anything to get it....sheee, what you think the medical community was invented, for fucking profit doggy!!

its like ciggerettes in the past
big tabacco said it wasnt that bad for you (medical commmunity)

all doctors knew it was terrible (me lol)

but of course, who wouldnt believe the larger company (not sarcastic)



like if they said...opiates are addicting, u take them and you will be dependant on it garenteed...people would not take it NEARLY as much

but saying...just cuz your dependant, doesnt mean your an addict.....thats just making them feel better about the choice they made to get on an addicting substance.

and some people just take it the wrong way figuring they meant, hey dependant dont mean ill WD, cuz im not taking it to get high so i wont WD bla bla bla......................okay and iv heard people say that b4 too no lie 100% truth

 

[jamesBrown]

'

a few Things.. Alot of people who are hard core trying to get sober think that people on ssri's are addicts.. its just some people are willing to b addicted for that positive effect on there life but when they need to stop it will b negitive. I think they fuck with a ur mind and ur soul and ur abilty to b YOU this isnt really argueable at the core.. in effect the reason people take them are to change these things even if for a positive outcome. Doing it through a way in which you are actully learn somthing, is far far more of the human thing to do and you benifit leaps and bounds by doing the change without pills instead of getting instant gratification which is a huge reason why most addicts get so addicted to shit.


This argument is going to become front and center in the coming years. There soon will b pills for even more everyday things and once people are taking pills for everything then this question will b more talked about. Its pruly two ways of thinking both right to a degree but since there is no middle there will always b a issue.. much like abbortion

I think people allready take pills for just about everything. Half of TV commercials are pushing pills on our society. Its just how our world has become. Medical science has developed to the point where we know enough about different chemicals so that we can use hundreds of thousands of them to our benefit......and of course, this can sometimes lead to negative results, as all things in life can. I for one, dont see a problem with someone using a medication to benefit them as long as it doesnt negatively impact there lifestyle.... such as.... they need the medication to live(when its not a necessary medication for that person), or when they neglect more important aspects of there life such as relationships and hygeine in order to obtain more of that medication, or as a result of that medication. As long as the person is only gaining benefits from taking the medication, I think there is usually no problem with it.
Allthough, certain people believe otherwise. Some people/organizations are very against people using medications of any kind to benefit them. And from what I have read of your posts, you seem to have a similar attitude. You seem to view almost anyone who uses a medication on a daily basis as an addict and you seem to view it as a negetive thing. I could be wrong, but im just going off of what you have posted on this website. If I am wrong about this I apologize. But, I think I am right given the evidence of your posts and I thought that you might be interested in Scientology.
Now...I dont know too much about Scientologists but I do know that one of there big issues is that they do not like using modern medications whatsoever....they dont even like using tylenol for headaches. They seem to be more attracted to more natural solutions to there ailments and I am not saying I have anything against that, I just thought that given your post history, this is something you might be interested in. They seem to share alot of your same views on that subject.
Allthough, once again, I could be wrong and if so I apologize, I just saw a similar thought process there and made the connection and thought that you might benefit from looking into it.

 

[PillPoppingAnimal]

'

a few Things.. Alot of people who are hard core trying to get sober think that people on ssri's are addicts.. its just some people are willing to b addicted for that positive effect on there life but when they need to stop it will b negitive. I think they fuck with a ur mind and ur soul and ur abilty to b YOU this isnt really argueable at the core.. in effect the reason people take them are to change these things even if for a positive outcome. Doing it through a way in which you are actully learn somthing, is far far more of the human thing to do and you benifit leaps and bounds by doing the change without pills instead of getting instant gratification which is a huge reason why most addicts get so addicted to shit.


This argument is going to become front and center in the coming years. There soon will b pills for even more everyday things and once people are taking pills for everything then this question will b more talked about. Its pruly two ways of thinking both right to a degree but since there is no middle there will always b a issue.. much like abbortion

that...

and its just making humanity get even crazier and crazier for the future

our DNA changes everyday (babys being born)...its always beng tweeked, duh its evolution

but these meds are going to fuck up evolution 10 fold
(mental disorder bullshit meds)

its going to speed up the destruction of earth and ruin for what could have been a very good evolutionary future


idk if u guys know...every mental illness, gets imbedded in our DNA and gets passed down.....WHERE IS HUMANITY GOING TO BE IN 4000 YEARS!!!???..my guess, either the world will be blown up, natural disasters will whipe out 98% of humanity orr i have no idea whatsoever

 

[DkBlaze1]

but the truth is... if your physically addictive and u stop taking your meds, u will be miserable, mentally and physcially

addiction is addiction, if your body needs a chemical (an addicting one, please lets not go into people on blood pressure meds)

This in effect is the main diffrence, between the way we think and the way others who argue this point think. They extend the ""Blood pressure typea med"" exception to other meds.99% of people are consider alot of meds such as (muscle relaxers,benzos,opiates,including suboxone and methadone, lyrica, neurontin and many others.) addictive and those who take these drugs are considered addicts. I really have a hard time understanding how people somehow make this not make sence in there mind. I know that before they ever used any drugs they would def agree with this, But now having used drugs ect, they have learned to deny.

Im not argueing that these meds can improve your life ect ect.. Im just pointing out that by going the route of taking meds to fix your problems you only put off dealing with the problem, this is a large part of why people become addicts in the first place.. to blunt things they dont wanta deal with.

The right way and much more healthy way to do this is to deal with things through theropy and behavior changes. Its never going to work without this. its like you can not truly overcome something if you dont learn to replace w/e the bad act was with a new positive act or ruteine or response then you will always bounce back to your old ways and never change. any change you wish to make must be replaced with a positive, this is far far harder to do then it sounds this is whole life changes.

the only positive thing that can b said about suboxone is it gives you more time to make these changes because you are not constently searching for your drugs. But it also is bad because it extends how long your on that class of drugs.

 

[Jabberwocky]

hey yo, how about we get this back on topic everyone. i really don't feel like doing a heap of editing and shit right now. kthx

 

[DkBlaze1]

I think people allready take pills for just about everything. Half of TV commercials are pushing pills on our society. Its just how our world has become. Medical science has developed to the point where we know enough about different chemicals so that we can use hundreds of thousands of them to our benefit......and of course, this can sometimes lead to negative results, as all things in life can. I for one, dont see a problem with someone using a medication to benefit them as long as it doesnt negatively impact there lifestyle.... such as.... they need the medication to live(when its not a necessary medication for that person), or when they neglect more important aspects of there life such as relationships and hygeine in order to obtain more of that medication, or as a result of that medication. As long as the person is only gaining benefits from taking the medication, I think there is usually no problem with it.
Allthough, certain people believe otherwise. Some people/organizations are very against people using medications of any kind to benefit them. And from what I have read of your posts, you seem to have a similar attitude. You seem to view almost anyone who uses a medication on a daily basis as an addict and you seem to view it as a negetive thing. I could be wrong, but im just going off of what you have posted on this website. If I am wrong about this I apologize. But, I think I am right given the evidence of your posts and I thought that you might be interested in Scientology.
Now...I dont know too much about Scientologists but I do know that one of there big issues is that they do not like using modern medications whatsoever....they dont even like using tylenol for headaches. They seem to be more attracted to more natural solutions to there ailments and I am not saying I have anything against that, I just thought that given your post history, this is something you might be interested in. They seem to share alot of your same views on that subject.
Allthough, once again, I could be wrong and if so I apologize, I just saw a similar thought process there and made the connection and thought that you might benefit from looking into it.

your totally right By what you think about my posts.. I am very anti most meds. If you need it to live Im not ageinst it (aka the stuff like blood pressure), If you need it to live a normal life but could live a normal life with behavioral theropy then this is the route of higher living. it really is the best for you that if you can do it this route you do it this way. and unless you have tryed and failed many times you shouldnt try medicine.

Our culture now is sooo pro quick fix and meds. like you said theres a med for anyting this is surely a flaw. back in the 50-70's there was a stigma over the theropist due to there pushing of meds and people knew it would get to were it is. It doesnt make alot of sence in my mind to take meds you really dont need. and for me untill I switched from heroin to suboxone I really didnt need suboxone and If I was not on probation I would make a concerted effert to quit. but untill then I will b stuck and unhappy I ever started this shit.

I understand by hating on meds , and also taking them I am a hippocrate but since I am addicted I am able to justify it and contiue. But my real wish is to just b through with this shit .

certainly I know not all agree, And some people have just given up and have tryed that so many times and failed it makes sence to just contiue but, I feel that for alot of people they do it because its a quick fix but by always going this route you really loss in the end. you miss out on self growth and eventually you will want to get off w.e it is you are on due to some reason. and when that day does come you will have to go through far more pain then had you just learned the right way from the start of the issue.

this all comes from some one who has been on adderal or somethin like that there whole life and relizes how bad this can b for a human. and only want the best for myself and other addict thus I spew my shit. I know it comes off wrong at times but thats not the point. the point is to just show my beliefs and hope others sign on to it.

and I also feel that most people who actully achive sobrity do at some point really agree with what Im thinking.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

DK and jB- this is the LAST WARNING for either of you. The next time you starting posting directly to another member and derail a thread instead of taking it to PM, you WILL receive infractions.

_____________________

Right, PPA, clearly the whole medical community is really putting out false information to get people addicted to antihypertensives and nasal spray 8)

The fact is there is a world of difference between physical dependence and addiction. The former is PURELY PHYSIOLOGICAL.

Addiction is characterized by consuming a person's whole life while they are using, not just causing nasty physical withdrawal. It is a BIO-PSYCHO-SOCIAL disease. It interrupts people's recreational, occupational and education activities that are important in their lives. It takes priority over everything else.

People taking necessary medication whether its for pain, blood pressure or allergic rhinitis that improves their life and ALLOWS them to be able to participate in necessary activities are NOT ADDICTS. Its extremely simple.

 

[SkagKush]

talk about being gone a day..... good god people