Bupe Suboxone, Tapering, Quiting, Methadone ? The Truth good and bad ! Shoulda just kicked

[SkagKush]

very true cane

 

[jamesBrown]

Curleygurl... It's no miracle you haven't experienced WD's following a slow taper from 16mg to 1mg. There are literally hundreds of postings in addiction forums confirming this is [relatively] easily accomplished when following a systematic strategy. The real challege begins when [if] you decide to titrate your dose from 1mg to zero. Thats where JamesBrowns claims and beliefs differ from the mainstream. A very small minority report little or no significant WD's when making the final drop off bupe.

There's no miracle drug to cure addicition. At least none on the market yet. Buprenorphine is an opiate replacement drug. It's used for ORT [opiate replacement therapy] and is essentially replacing one opiate for another. Bupe has been reported to be at least 20X more potent than morphine... so when your taking 1mg, thats still a significant level of narcotic in your system.

Unfortunately, there are many subs dr's who either mislead or fail to imform their patients regarding the WD potential when finally quitting. I personally believe much more people than not experience serious WD's when quitting bupe. There are many factors involved in the severity of WD's experienced when stopping your dose.... which I won't get into.

From what I've read about JamesB experience [i could have missed a post] is that he hasn't been completely off bupe for more than a week since his induction... so he can't actually provide you with an experience regarding PAWS. Both Acutes and PAWS are real obsticles to overcome when your goal is abstinence from subs. If this is your ultimate goal... hopefully you will be among those fortunate few who have an easy time with it. But don't be surprised if you continue to taper to zero and feel a fair amount of WD discomfort.... short and long term. If you've only been on a few mos... it shouldn't be near as bad as us "long termers".

Ive actually taken a 15 day break. that was my longest break "since induction".

But actually, I just beat that record a few days ago....im goin on about 20 days now with no bupe. And I stil have no signs of withdrawal. I feel just as fine as aI did while I was taking it. Have no urges to take sub, I also feel no aches, pains, etc...
I hope others can have similar results as I have.
And Cane brought up a good point. I usually dont talk too much about the other aspects of getting clean such as counseling and therpy, etc....but those can be extremely important parts of someones process of becoming sober. I was lucky that I was able to basically "cousel" myself in my head on my own and was able to come to terms with my addiciton and able to realize how it was negatively affecting my life and I was able to set goals for myself(long term and short term) that allowed me to stay on track. It is very important for most people coming off of an addiction to have a support structure of some kind and get help psychologicaly as well....but I also believe that suboxone can still play a major role in the "getting clean" process.

*And CurlyGurl....I believe that as long as you followed my advice closely(which you have so far and have had great results) that when you do finally get off of the suboxone, you will have either no withdrawals/PAWS to worry about, or you will have a minimal amount to deal with....and even if you did have to deal with some, I think it still would be a much easier and less traumatic experience than compared to quitting off of heroin or oxy. This is because I reccommended to you to stay at your dose of 0.5mg's a dy or lower for atleast 2-3 weeks(if not longer) so you can become fully adjusted to that dose and hopefully in the end, your body will respond less agressively to the withdraal of that chemical from your body. You can even dose once every 2-3 days after you jump off of ~0.5mg's/day and take like ~0.3mg's every other day or every third day to make the experience even easier. I have heard of NO ONE trying to quit suboxone exactly as I have described to you here on BL and I think that if you try that, the results will suprise many poeople. but of course you will have to go through with it and post your results before we can know for sure how it worked for you.

 

[SkagKush]

welcome back JB, glad to have here with us today lol......

its true, we often dont speak much about the other side of sobriety work.... counselling and aspects similar. here in vancouver, this side of recovery is mandatory work in conjunction with my suboxone thearapy. all though i have done this work prior to my BMT, and worked most of the problems away.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

And Cane brought up a good point. I usually dont talk too much about the other aspects of getting clean such as counseling and therpy, etc....but those can be extremely important parts of someones process of becoming sober. I was lucky that I was able to basically "cousel" myself in my head on my own and was able to come to terms with my addiciton and able to realize how it was negatively affecting my life and I was able to set goals for myself(long term and short term) that allowed me to stay on track. It is very important for most people coming off of an addiction to have a support structure of some kind and get help psychologicaly as well....but I also believe that suboxone can still play a major role in the "getting clean" process.

Absolutely, I don't mean to give the impression that sub has no place in treatment, just that I think its usefulness and role are often distorted so to speak.

Now while I'm not AT ALL saying you HAVE TO go get counseling or anything close to that, be weary of believing you can think your way through all of this... I haven't met anyone who has successfully thought themselves free of the problems addictions caused for them.

We all rationalize and addicts have a special talent to convince themselves of just about anything so just be weary of that and remember that there is no real replacement for some outside feedback and support... whether that takes the form of 'traditional' treatment or you find other ways to attain it.

__________________
That's great to hear, Skaq. Also many thanks amanitadine for the *very* kind words, it really means a lot

 

[slowpoke1967]

Ive herd so much about this suboxone bad and good .
I was wondering if its hard to get yer doctor or shrink to perscribe it??
Also will this drug help me with the problems i have rather the reasons for the drugs i take for the conditions i have,say my chronic insomnia,OCD,ADD,manic dpressive,sever anxiety attacks and even pain.
what will this drug help me with???or am i realy stuck on the many meds i take as stated by others ,,,drugs i take to make my life as normal as it can be

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I'm not exactly sure how it works in Canada, but in the US only doctors with special licenses specifically to prescribe bupe can... if you meet criteria to be on it and find a doctor, its not difficult at all... I'm sure the Canadians around can give much more detailed information though.

There is literally no way to say how much or how little sub will help the other issues that you mentioned... there's a good chance it'll help with pain and if active opioid addiction is causing/exacerbating some of the other problems then getting stabilized on suboxone certainly MAY help.

If you have to deal with all these problems then no pill is going to be miraculous as we've been discussing throughout this thread... for problems that run that deep you need a comprehensive approach to address these from every different angle... pharmacologically to lifestyle changes, counseling/therapy (I am a BIG proponent of CBT especially) and even things like education, job changes, etc. may be necessary and can go a long way.

 

[SkagKush]

only a few handful of doctors in Canada have the authority to prescribe bupe. so you would need to locate a doctor, and this is usually done at methadone clinics....

 

[jamesBrown]

Absolutely, I don't mean to give the impression that sub has no place in treatment, just that I think its usefulness and role are often distorted so to speak.

Now while I'm not AT ALL saying you HAVE TO go get counseling or anything close to that, be weary of believing you can think your way through all of this... I haven't met anyone who has successfully thought themselves free of the problems addictions caused for them.

We all rationalize and addicts have a special talent to convince themselves of just about anything so just be weary of that and remember that there is no real replacement for some outside feedback and support... whether that takes the form of 'traditional' treatment or you find other ways to attain it.

__________________
That's great to hear, Skaq. Also many thanks amanitadine for the *very* kind words, it really means a lot

I actually do get outside treatment, i see a therapist, psychiatrist, and addictions counselor....but all of what they told me I was able to figure out on my own, they just helped the process along. But like I said, Im not even taking suboxone anymore....so i really havent had any issues with addiction(as so many people on BL seem to accuse me of) for quite a long time.

 

[slowpoke1967]

ya actually i was surprised one day when i went to get my script from this pharmacy i used to use , and the pharmacist an obvious knowledgable person as he was smart and old = knows alot about drugs ,,
He suggested to me to go to this clinic a couple blocks away from the pharmacy and to try and get on the methadone program.
It blew my sox off I took it as it was like he was tryin to tell me to go take what i have conciderd to be heavier drugs than what i was on,(because though ive herd of methedone-who hasnt?i realy dont know how it works and what the effects are) i understood to a degree why he was telling me this ,he was telling me because i on average will take up to around 50 or 60 pain pills a day ussualy ten at a time,like when i get up in pain i take ten then even though i feel better most of the time by the time an hour goes by i feel the need to take ten more and so on...
So just for the hell of it what does methedone feel like...???

 

[jamesBrown]

Thats a somewhat difficult question to answer. It feels differently to different people. and also feels different in different doses. It is very good at killing pain though, but is generally considered less "euphoric" than most other painkilling opiates especially after you become adjusted to the methdaone. But thats kind of true with all opiates, but I think its more pronounced with methadone.
there are many threads on BL about methadone that you can read and it will give you more than enough info for you to have your questions completely answered.

 

[slowpoke1967]

^I'm not exactly sure how it works in Canada, but in the US only doctors with special licenses specifically to prescribe bupe can... if you meet criteria to be on it and find a doctor, its not difficult at all... I'm sure the Canadians around can give much more detailed information though.

There is literally no way to say how much or how little sub will help the other issues that you mentioned... there's a good chance it'll help with pain and if active opioid addiction is causing/exacerbating some of the other problems then getting stabilized on suboxone certainly MAY help.

If you have to deal with all these problems then no pill is going to be miraculous as we've been discussing throughout this thread... for problems that run that deep you need a comprehensive approach to address these from every different angle... pharmacologically to lifestyle changes, counseling/therapy (I am a BIG proponent of CBT especially) and even things like education, job changes, etc. may be necessary and can go a long way.

yes i agree and i do my best i see my shrink regularily and had a therepist but lost her because i canceled so many appoinments im kinda agoraphobic also along with suffering with ulcerative cholitis(alsomost bled to death about 5 years ago when i found out i had this disease) but only have had a few bad attacks since actually had to go for an ambulance ride just a couple weeks ago for the first time since i was a kid...
I also try and get out and take the bus as often as i can which isnt to often ,ussualy only when i need to go to the doctors or go out and get more pain pills.....
You sound like a wise man,I just wonder everytime i see one of yer posts ,is that reay you in the picture ??? lol
peace everyone......

 

[jamesBrown]

haha....no thats not Cane.....im pretty sure its some political person or something. he told me once but I forgot.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

ha, I'm 24 but thank you! Thats renowned linguist and political activist/philosopher Noam Chomsky, a personal hero of mine.

 

[slowpoke1967]

ha, I'm 24 but thank you! Thats renowned linguist and political activist/philosopher Noam Chomsky, a personal hero of mine.

Ahhhhhhhhh IC very kewl i inda thought it was gonna be something along those lines

 

[SubDude]

Ive actually taken a 15 day break. that was my longest break "since induction".

But actually, I just beat that record a few days ago....im goin on about 20 days now with no bupe. And I stil have no signs of withdrawal. I feel just as fine as aI did while I was taking it. Have no urges to take sub, I also feel no aches, pains, etc...

No secret I sometimes get a little confused by some of your postings... Thanks for correcting me on the 15 day issue. However, are you sure you've been off subs 20 days?

About 10 days ago you were talking with Bojangles69 who had apparently assumed you were no longer on subs when he told you : "Good to see you got off [subs]* well too!!

Your response was on 9/30/10:

Im actually not "off"....I just take 0.5mg doses every day up to three times a day, and I get euphoria, energy, and anti depressant properties from the suboxone every day. It never stops. I can also stop taking the suboxone anytime I want without any withdrawal effects. The longest break i have taken is 15 days, so its not like I was livin off of bupe reserves.

At that point you would have been abstinent about 10 days but clearly implied you will still actively using on a daily basis. The thread was titled "need advice about stopping suboxone" and the discussion included WD's etc. Don't you think it would have been relevant and important to the points you were making to include the 'fact' that you were currently absent subs use for 9-10 days... when you posted the above?

You've said numerous times you feel fine with or without subs and now you state "I feel just as fine as aI did while I was taking it. Have no urges to take sub, I also feel no aches, pains, etc..."

I gotta admit I'm confused why you bother with taking it? If I could quit 20 days with no WD's and was certain PAWS wasn't going to be a problem... I'm pretty sure I'd give sobriety a serious effort.... but that's just me.

BTW, how long of a break do you plan to take this time and do you have any concern the bupe won't show up on your next dr visit drug screen? I think you recently mentioned something about not using ganja because of concern about a urine screen...




* parenthesis added

 

[jamesBrown]

No secret I sometimes get a little confused by some of your postings... Thanks for correcting me on the 15 day issue. However, are you sure you've been off subs 20 days?

About 10 days ago you were talking with Bojangles69 who had apparently assumed you were no longer on subs when he told you : "Good to see you got off [subs]* well too!!

Your response was on 9/30/10:

Im actually not "off"....I just take 0.5mg doses every day up to three times a day, and I get euphoria, energy, and anti depressant properties from the suboxone every day. It never stops. I can also stop taking the suboxone anytime I want without any withdrawal effects. The longest break i have taken is 15 days, so its not like I was livin off of bupe reserves.

At that point you would have been abstinent about 10 days but clearly implied you will still actively using on a daily basis. The thread was titled "need advice about stopping suboxone" and the discussion included WD's etc. Don't you think it would have been relevant and important to the points you were making to include the 'fact' that you were currently absent subs use for 9-10 days... when you posted the above?

You've said numerous times you feel fine with or without subs and now you state "I feel just as fine as aI did while I was taking it. Have no urges to take sub, I also feel no aches, pains, etc..."

I gotta admit I'm confused why you bother with taking it? If I could quit 20 days with no WD's and was certain PAWS wasn't going to be a problem... I'm pretty sure I'd give sobriety a serious effort.... but that's just me.

BTW, how long of a break do you plan to take this time and do you have any concern the bupe won't show up on your next dr visit drug screen? I think you recently mentioned something about not using ganja because of concern about a urine screen...




* parenthesis added

Why would it be relevant that I wasnt currently taking subs at that point? We were talking about HIS issues and his problems, not mine. I was just giving him advice from my experience. Just because I tell him the effects I get from suboxone doesnt mean im currently taking them. Nowhere did I "imply that I was still using on a daily basis". I just told him how bupe effected me when I do take it on a daily basis. If for some reason it came across as me saying that I was actually still taking subs, then i apologize because I am not. I apologize for the apparent confusion.

And im not sure how long im gonna take a break. Probably however long it wil take to make some of the people who are always trying to prove what I say as false even though I experience it that I actually WONT get PAWS from being off of subs for a long period of time. I have enough stockpiled so that I dont have to go back to my doctor for a very long time if need be. Ill probably stay off of them for atleast a few more weeks....in my oponion, thats long enough to show that I wont have to worry about PAWS. And if people still dont believe me, and im sure thre will be some who dont, then thats fine with me. Im not here to try to prove to people exactly how long ive been off of subs, or other shit that is completely irrelevant to helping these people who ask valid questions and are expecting valid answers. I think we should try to focus on what BL is all about, which is harm reduction, instead of constantly nit picking about exactly what day I stopped taking suboxone, and if I tell everyone I give advice to that im not on suboxone anymore, etc...etc....
Honestly, i think its a waste of time and im not going to be wasting anymore posts on trying to humor the people who seem to be obsessed with my suboxone maintanence, or lack there of.
If you have any more questions about my personal suboxone "information" or whatever you wanna call it....you are more than welcome to PM me about it. I may or may not respond, depending on the way the post is worded, and the questions asked. but just in case you are worrying......no i am not withdrawing or showing any signs of withdrawal, dependence, PAWS, or any similar ailment....and yes, i have currently been off of my suboxone for about 20-21 days and plan on staying off of it for a good while longer. If I choose,somewhere down the line, to start taking subs again, or take even one dose, then I will do so....and there is nothing wrong with that.
Thank you for your extremely intent concern with my suboxone maintanence.

 

[SubDude]

Why would it be relevant that I wasnt currently taking subs at that point? We were talking about HIS issues and his problems, not mine. I was just giving him advice from my experience. Just because I tell him the effects I get from suboxone doesnt mean im currently taking them. Nowhere did I "imply that I was still using on a daily basis". I just told him how bupe effected me when I do take it on a daily basis. If for some reason it came across as me saying that I was actually still taking subs, then i apologize because I am not. I apologize for the apparent confusion.

And im not sure how long im gonna take a break. Probably however long it wil take to make some of the people who are always trying to prove what I say as false even though I experience it that I actually WONT get PAWS from being off of subs for a long period of time. I have enough stockpiled so that I dont have to go back to my doctor for a very long time if need be. Ill probably stay off of them for atleast a few more weeks....in my oponion, thats long enough to show that I wont have to worry about PAWS. And if people still dont believe me, and im sure thre will be some who dont, then thats fine with me. Im not here to try to prove to people exactly how long ive been off of subs, or other shit that is completely irrelevant to helping these people who ask valid questions and are expecting valid answers. I think we should try to focus on what BL is all about, which is harm reduction, instead of constantly nit picking about exactly what day I stopped taking suboxone, and if I tell everyone I give advice to that im not on suboxone anymore, etc...etc....
Honestly, i think its a waste of time and im not going to be wasting anymore posts on trying to humor the people who seem to be obsessed with my suboxone maintanence, or lack there of.
If you have any more questions about my personal suboxone "information" or whatever you wanna call it....you are more than welcome to PM me about it. I may or may not respond, depending on the way the post is worded, and the questions asked. but just in case you are worrying......no i am not withdrawing or showing any signs of withdrawal, dependence, PAWS, or any similar ailment....and yes, i have currently been off of my suboxone for about 20-21 days and plan on staying off of it for a good while longer. If I choose,somewhere down the line, to start taking subs again, or take even one dose, then I will do so....and there is nothing wrong with that.
Thank you for your extremely intent concern with my suboxone maintanence.

Glad to hear your doing well at the 3 week mark. It would seem that since your on 2 separate probations [with prison hanging over your head] you would want to keep your drug screens clean and make sure the prescribed ORT drug... shows in the test. Or else come off the program and stay off subs. From what I understand, PO's will violate for not being in compliance with most any of the terms. Naturally I don't know your terms, but with 2 different ones... I would suppose drug usage would be thoroughly covered... both use and non use. I say this because I had a clinic friend on MMT and he was sent to prison for having a "clean" screen. I don't know specifics but his buddy told me that's what happened...

I know you're a smart guy so I guess you already have all this kinda stuff covered, but dealing with a "double whammy" must be difficult.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Just because I tell him the effects I get from suboxone doesnt mean im currently taking them. Nowhere did I "imply that I was still using on a daily basis". I just told him how bupe effected me when I do take it on a daily basis.

Rewind to 9/30-

Im actually not "off"....I just take 0.5mg doses every day up to three times a day, and I get euphoria, energy, and anti depressant properties from the suboxone every day.

Your use of the present-progressive tense in "Im not actually "off"" certainly implies you were actively using daily at that time. I don't really care how long you've been off, I was just showing you what you said.

What I *AM* concerned about is all your statements on PAWS. Its great if you don't experience AW symptoms and PAWS but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people will do so by you sharing your statements over and over in this manner, you aren't preventing them from experiencing this, just potentially giving them false hope and overconfidence until that harsh realization that very few people share YOUR experience.

 

[jamesBrown]

Rewind to 9/30-



Your use of the present-progressive tense in "Im not actually "off"" certainly implies you were actively using daily at that time. I don't really care how long you've been off, I was just showing you what you said.

What I *AM* concerned about is all your statements on PAWS. Its great if you don't experience AW symptoms and PAWS but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people will do so by you sharing your statements over and over in this manner, you aren't preventing them from experiencing this, just potentially giving them false hope and overconfidence until that harsh realization that very few people share YOUR experience.

Once again, i apologize if there was any confusion. Thats why my last post clarified it for everyone to see.

I also do not believe I am giving people false hope, as the only people that have actually done exactly what I have said soo far(which is very few) have had great results just as I had explained. but yes it is true that most people will experience PAWS and I say that all the time. Im not giving anyone false hope. Im just saying that if you follow my instructions you are more lkely to not have to deal with PAWS or have much less severe PAWS. And I make that very clear every time I post to someone about it. Just because I explain how it worked for me doesnt mean im telling people all over the world that they will have the exact same experience. Some people seem to make that assumption and I cannot help that. People tell of there experinces here on BL ALLLLLLLLL the time about many different things/situations and yet no one is constantly telling them that they are giving people false hope or that what happened to them is not worth saying becasue it may not happen to someone else. All I tell people is that my methods are used to help prevent these bad symptoms and hopefully they work, but sometimes they wont for some people....again, I have said that many many times. Im sry some of you fail to read those posts.

But like I said, if anyone has any further questions about my suboxone situation or just has anything to say, they can PM me about it.

Thanks.

Glad to hear your doing well at the 3 week mark. It would seem that since your on 2 separate probations [with prison hanging over your head] you would want to keep your drug screens clean and make sure the prescribed ORT drug... shows in the test. Or else come off the program and stay off subs. From what I understand, PO's will violate for not being in compliance with most any of the terms. Naturally I don't know your terms, but with 2 different ones... I would suppose drug usage would be thoroughly covered... both use and non use. I say this because I had a clinic friend on MMT and he was sent to prison for having a "clean" screen. I don't know specifics but his buddy told me that's what happened...

I know you're a smart guy so I guess you already have all this kinda stuff covered, but dealing with a "double whammy" must be difficult.

Actually I just completed my first probation about 3 days ago, and yes, I am on a second one. But first of all, my PO doesnt drug test me any more as i passed the first few of the drug tests and completed all my community service and what not extremely quickly and am basically just making payments.(I have allready finished my requirements for my second probation as well because it was running concurrent with my first, and so all I have left is to make payments).
As far as the drug tests go....the suboxone has nothing to do with my probation, so it doesnt matter if I test positive or negative for suboxone if I ever do get tested by my PO. If I am positive all I have to do is simply show some form of a pill bottle to them. But I actually dont have to do that anymore because he is allready aware that I was taking suboxone. But he has allready told me that I am a "model client" and treats me basically like his son and he hasnt drug tested me in a few months.

Thanks again for your concern, but you were right..I am a smart guy and got it covered

*and suprisingly it isnt difficult dealing with a "double whammy" as i I was able to knock out all of my requirements extremely quickly(months ago) and basically just sit back and make payments.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I merged your last 2 posts into 1 (didn't edit anything else).

Try not to double post, if you want to add more just edit the first one and add the information in. If you want to quote someone else just start a new post, copy the quote, edit the first and paste it in... that's what I do at least when quoting multiple people.