• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Bupe Suboxone, Tapering, Quiting, Methadone ? The Truth good and bad ! Shoulda just kicked

My experience and my view on Subutex/Buprenorphine/Buprenex/Suboxone is this, that though it might be helpful for the short-term but on the long-term you become kind of a slave to it...End of the day it stops you from being you! stops you from being sober and thinking clearly, the longer your on Sub the more bored you get, eventually you will feel you want to be sub-free...In order to feel good on sub after long-term use you have to excercise, honestly without excercise I would have got depressed, I know for many excercise is not possible because of time and other issues but it's better to be off sub after a considerable amount of time being on it...

After 5 years of Subutex use I can safely say I rather lead a sub-free life now then be on sub...Sub is ok for a while so people can sort out their lives and stuff but it's not really worth being on it for the long-term i.e 1 year and over, because the more you take it then more you will feel bored and have no motivation, it happens to everybody..For some the 6 months mark is enough, for folks like me it took me 3 years to actually get bored on the sub...I don't wanna take a tablet to get high for few hours then get bored again..That's why am tapering off now....This is just my opinion and my experience...Am not pro-sub or anti-sub, I just want off and be able to travel, be able to work, being able to talk & socialise from my heart and not let the sub do the talking, I want to do all these things without worrying about withdrawals cuz I can't hold down a life if am tapering and going in some sort of withdrawals...

Hey people. So due my inability to write anyting anyone can read ,I am simply going to agree or disagree with things.. also when I feel the need I will pose questions to you people who are seemingly far more intelligent then I.

And what this good fellow wrote I agree with completely. and gives a good overveiw of how i feel about suboxone/bupe.
 
Hey people. So due my inability to write anyting anyone can read ,I am simply going to agree or disagree with things.. also when I feel the need I will pose questions to you people who are seemingly far more intelligent then I.

And what this good fellow wrote I agree with completely. and gives a good overveiw of how i feel about suboxone/bupe.

I think a quick little "i agree with this" would suffice.
 
My experience and my view on Subutex/Buprenorphine/Buprenex/Suboxone is this, that though it might be helpful for the short-term but on the long-term you become kind of a slave to it...End of the day it stops you from being you! stops you from being sober and thinking clearly, the longer your on Sub the more bored you get, eventually you will feel you want to be sub-free...In order to feel good on sub after long-term use you have to excercise, honestly without excercise I would have got depressed, I know for many excercise is not possible because of time and other issues but it's better to be off sub after a considerable amount of time being on it...

After 5 years of Subutex use I can safely say I rather lead a sub-free life now then be on sub...Sub is ok for a while so people can sort out their lives and stuff but it's not really worth being on it for the long-term i.e 1 year and over, because the more you take it then more you will feel bored and have no motivation, it happens to everybody..For some the 6 months mark is enough, for folks like me it took me 3 years to actually get bored on the sub...I don't wanna take a tablet to get high for few hours then get bored again..That's why am tapering off now....This is just my opinion and my experience...Am not pro-sub or anti-sub, I just want off and be able to travel, be able to work, being able to talk & socialise from my heart and not let the sub do the talking, I want to do all these things without worrying about withdrawals cuz I can't hold down a life if am tapering and going in some sort of withdrawals...

I also couldn't help but wonder if the fact that I wasn't where I wanted to be in life, after almost four years of suboxone use, wasn't due to my continuing drug addiction. And the fact that I sometimes couldn't get a hard on at the age of 21...
It's best to taper down to .5mg a day - which really isn't very hard if you make yourself get into the habit of taking it only once a day (i used to snort my subs three to five times per day, once every 3-4 hours). try not taking it for two or three days (not an easy thing to do but really, its only a few days), then take .5mg, and you'll notice a good high and be fine for the entire day. i found that suboxone is much, much more euphoric at doses between .2 and .5mg anyway.

stay at the .5mg dose for a few weeks, then stop the suboxone and switch to loperamide for a month, at ever decreasing doses, then stop. you will have bypassed almost all of the withdrawals.

life gets better after suboxone. i'm almost 2.5 months suboxone free (last sub dose was july 26) and i'm already feeling so much better. not quite "normal" yet, but getting close. i actually catch myself in good moods sometimes and can;t believe i feel happy without an opiate in my system. makes me wanna cry...
 
Well done CitoKid, am happy for u..I wish to be where you are very soon!...

How long did u take sub for?.

Also I've heard it can take weeks to a month to taper just from 0.5mg to 0, so basically tapering saves weeks and months of withdrawals and PAWS. So is my best bet to taper by 0.2 from 1mg every week or 2 weeks?.

Also isn't lopermaide bit dangerous to take everyday for a month? I thought SAO such as dihydrocodeine or cocodomol or tramadol are better...Can I use these to come off sub?

Am planning to go down to 0.2 as I've got temgesics at home, then I plan to skip days, can I take something like Valium when I skip days?

CitoKid did u take any other opiates while on the lower doses of sub? is it possible"not" to take any opiates while your're tapering the sub?


P.S I started at 12mgs in 2005...Tapered for over a year to 1mg...I never once got withdrawals, yes I felt the reductions a tiny wee bit but Excercise helped that out..
 
Also isn't it better to take sub 2 times? i.e am and pm? or all at once? I take mines all at once, but some say it's better to take a dose when u wake up and then 6 or 7 hours later, or it doesn't make any difference if u take it once or twice?

How come u didnt taper lower then 0.5mg CitoKid?

cheers!
 
For one, I don't think its better to take two doses because then you need to take twice as much sub as you need. Unless you divide your .5 to .2.

And a .25mg dose held me over fine for 24 hours.

And to get down to a .25mg dose, you could taper down by.2mg every week, but that seems too slow to me. I jumped off initially at 1mg a day, stayed clean for two whole days, and then "relapsed" on .3mg the morning of the third and was shocked to find that dose gave me a great high, which i hadn't had off suboxone in years. Oh yeah, I got on suboxone when I was 19 in September, 2006 - so I was on it for four years.

So I think it would be best, if you can find yourself two days, to simply stop the suboxone and then wait until the withdrawals really suck, then take a small dose. After I stopped for those two days, my tolerance seemed to have dropped rapidly, and .3mg doses or lower held my over for the whole day better and made me feel better for longer than my 1mg dose had. This will help you avoid a month or tapering.

The sub withdrawals, for me, started a few hours after I missed my morning dose on day 1. They got slowly and progressively worse throughout the day, and by day 2 and day 3 I felt incredibly weak, lethargic, and depressed and felt either really cold or really hot. hot baths seem to mitigate almost all of the withdrawal effects as long as you stay in them.

I think I misworded my post too, because I did taper lower than .5mg a day. I got down to .25mg a day, and didn't feel the need to taper any longer. Tramadol and kratom work well for getting off the suboxone. I used those several time during my first of four attempts to get off suboxone this year. both completely alleviated my withdrawals, but i felt depressed once my 45min kratom high ended, plus i still got hot and cold while trying to sleep, so I'd say tramadol worked better. But loperamide worked best for me - and actually made me feel the best while on it. It may be dangerous to take every day for 30 days if it really constipates you (theres no other reason I know or have found for it to be dangerous) so thats why i switched to taking it once every two days, then eventually once every three days, while on. Its a long lasting opiate like methadone so it keeps you withdrawal free for several days.
 
but since loperamide isnt able to cross the blood brain barrier and is only able to act on the mycenteric plexus through the gastrointestinal tract by basically decreasing the rate at which your gastrointestinal tract works, how would it provide opiate withdrawal symptom relief?

I understand that loperamide can actually cross the BBB but thats only when it is combined with quinidine....but even then it wouldnt be in amounts that would cause opiate related effects.
 
but since loperamide isnt able to cross the blood brain barrier and is only able to act on the mycenteric plexus through the gastrointestinal tract by basically decreasing the rate at which your gastrointestinal tract works, how would it provide opiate withdrawal symptom relief?

I understand that loperamide can actually cross the BBB but thats only when it is combined with quinidine....but even then it wouldnt be in amounts that would cause opiate related effects.

From this statement I can ascertain three things that I know to be true.

1. You haven never taken a high dose (60mg+) of loperamide.
2. You believe that all the experienced addicts on bluelight, including myself, who have had success with loperamide are experiencing a placebo effect.
3. Your information about loperamide comes from a wikipedia article with unproven information by an unknown author.

Despite all the disbelievers, I knew loperamide would work five years ago after I saw some experienced addicts discussing how it took away 100% of their opiate withdrawals and got them high. All the trends that have disbelievers, like poppy seed tea back in the early 2000's, and loperamide, ALWAYS end up being true. Opiate addicts are pretty keen on whether a drug is placebo or not, especially during withdrawal.

Loperamide is a fentenyl compound that was originally marketed as a pain killer. It crosses the bbb like any other opiate without the need of any potentiation. It simply causes more severe constipation that other opiates, and as such can be marketed at doses well below recreational levels to that effect.

When I take doses of loperamide over 100mg, I get a great high. Frankly, I'd take it over almost any other oral opiate. As in, I'd turn down one good hydrocodone high for a much longer lasting loperamide high.

There is really is no debate. anyone can get high off of loperamide, and loperamide alone, if they take doses over 60mg. I also once took lope for heroin withdrawals and experienced NO withdrawals at all over the course of a week. Both the physical and mental aspects of the WD were completely alleviated.

Odd thing is, though, most people don't get euphoria the first half dozen times they take loperamide, no matter the dose. that was the case with me. it takes a few tries before you feel the good side of it and not just a "dirty high" like i felt the first few times i took it.Now I could take it, wait 2 to 3 hours, and then feel my mood suddenly change from bad to fan-freekin-tastic.
 
i never was trying to say that what you were saying wasnt true. I was stating some information about loperamide that seemed to go against what you were saying. I was trying to give you an opportunity to clarify for me how it is still able to provide "opiate effects" or "withdrawal relief" if it doesnt ever reach your brains receptors in any significant quantity, if at all.

I think you misunderstood. I was, by no means, trying to make any assumptions. I was asking you to explain your point....as you didnt list any sources to back up your info....like..

"Loperamide is a fentenyl compound that was originally marketed as a pain killer"
do you have a source for that?

or

"It crosses the bbb like any other opiate without the need of any potentiation"
do you have a source for that as well?

Im not trying to disprove you, im actually trying to get the right information so i can believe you. And in order for me to believe something, I have to be shown facts and sources. I would be very appreciative if you were able to show me sources or any other kind of proof that those two statements above are true.

*I also never read any wikipedia article....I was going off of information I read at RxList.com
 
Last edited:
^loperamide is somewhat structurally related to fentanyl and meperidine and is undeniably an opioid. It *does* cross the BBB however the vast majority of it is exported back across the BBB by P-glycoprotein resulting in negligible CNS effects but prominent GI effects at therapeutic doses. At supratherapeutic doses, or with sufficiently strong P-gp inhibitors, enough can get through the BBB to produce central effects... although they are not nearly as pronounced or euphoric as full agonists that don't have BBB-crossing issues. I don't really have the desire to track down sources for all of this right now, but if you're still interested PM me and I'll find some for you.

I have used high doses to wean off opioids with great effect several times... and by this I mean 80% reduction in w/d symptoms from morphine withdrawal and I probably could've taken higher doses and relieved more but I wanted to be safe.

Also... as far as wikipedia pages for things like pharmaceuticals, its just as accurate as any encyclopedia. They are monitored both regularly and strictly for content and although false/misleading information is posted at times, it doesn't last.

Wikipedia has been tested in accuracy against other common encyclopedias many times and was found as accurate. The difference is there are pages on pop culture shit like songs where people put bullshit up but when it comes to a page like "loperamide" the info is solid... not that I rely on that for information, but it covers basics well.
______________________________

Admittedly I haven't read every single post in this thread but I have seen the OP call people addicts and all this over and over here and elsewhere and I want to address that.

First off, if you call someone something like an addict, its not going to go over well whether its real or not. Addiction is a medical issue with a stigma and whether its true or not, how would you feel if people were repeatedly accusing you of having syphilis or something? Its not civil to call people out like this and its not going to go over well... whether you believe you're doing it for their own good or not, it doesn't help.

Next... as I said, addiction is a medical issue and as such it requires a diagnosis by a medical professional to really have any validity and you can't diagnose people at a distance, furthermore you aren't a doctor.

When doctors, drug counselors and other addiction professionals DO diagnose people, they don't call them addicts, they call them substance dependent (which is a bit confusing because it does not mean they necessarily ARE physically dependent and if they are, this alone does not make someone substance dependent, aka an addict).

I have heard that in the DSM-V they are going to change the diagnosis to "addicted" for clarification but for our purposes "addicted" and "substance dependent" are synonymous.

For someone to be diagnosed as substance dependent they have to meet the following requirement (somewhat abridged for concision)-

Criteria for Substance Dependence

A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

(1) tolerance

(2) Withdrawal

(3) the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended

(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use

(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain-smoking), or recover from its effects

(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use

(7) the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

*This is taken from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuel-IV-TR but was taken directly from this site

4 of these 7 must be present to be eligible for this diagnosis and the fact is, people can be on maintenance medication and not be addicts/physically dependent.

Tolerance and withdrawal are inevitable with drugs like suboxone or methadone but people can and do take stable doses over a longer period or even reduce doses. You don't need to spend a lot of time trying to get and using suboxone (although if people ARE prepping, shooting, thinking about it all day, this is different then taking a pill every am or stopping at a clinic).

Furthermore, many on maintenance are content and don't desire to cut down or try to reduce their doses and fail. People don't need to give up important social, recreational or occupational activities due to sub/'done and these drugs can be taken for years without dangerous physiological effects so people aren't using despite really any risk.

I am NOT saying that no one on maintenance is actively addicted and most who get on maintenance were at some point, but many are on maintenance medication and don't meet these criteria.

______________________________
tl,dr: you are doing more harm for your message by calling people addicts whether you are right or wrong and people can successfully maintain and lead healthy lives free of addiction.
 
Last edited:
thanks for the clarification on the loperamide. and good post about addiction....very important to make people aware of the harm they can cause by trying to diagnose somebody with a disease(such as addiction) over the internet.
 
^thanks, I really appreciate that.

Within 9-12 months I should be certified and able to diagnose people as substance dependent and since medically, this is considered a "lifelong" diagnosis, I take the responsibility quite seriously...

for clarification, the Dx is lifelong but to be diagnosed as actively substance dependent you have to meet the criteria for 4 of the 7 above within a 12 month period.
 
i never was trying to say that what you were saying wasnt true. I was stating some information about loperamide that seemed to go against what you were saying. I was trying to give you an opportunity to clarify for me how it is still able to provide "opiate effects" or "withdrawal relief" if it doesnt ever reach your brains receptors in any significant quantity, if at all.

I think you misunderstood. I was, by no means, trying to make any assumptions. I was asking you to explain your point....as you didnt list any sources to back up your info....like..

"Loperamide is a fentenyl compound that was originally marketed as a pain killer"
do you have a source for that?

or

"It crosses the bbb like any other opiate without the need of any potentiation"
do you have a source for that as well?

Im not trying to disprove you, im actually trying to get the right information so i can believe you. And in order for me to believe something, I have to be shown facts and sources. I would be very appreciative if you were able to show me sources or any other kind of proof that those two statements above are true.

*I also never read any wikipedia article....I was going off of information I read at RxList.com

When I read articles that state it doesn't cross the bbb (which most articles say) I would have to simply say - they are wrong. Much like the fact that most medical journals say coaxil (a european anti-depressant that has recently been discussed on here) was an ssre, not all related to opiates, and had the same abuse potential of other anti-depressants (aka none whatsoever). Well now there are plenty of people addicted to it, loosing their limbs due to necrosis due to shooting up insoluble pills, and i once used it and got 100% opiate effects, so all I can say is - they "science" was wrong again.

I tend to have more faith in human experience, at least in regards to drug effects, then medical journals. especially when the experience is my own.

But I understand the need to see sources. I did a ten second google search and found tons of people saying loperamide was originally a pain killer/is a fentanyl analog (quick google search will show you the same thing), but no "scholarly" sources. a further search may easily turn up such articles.

But what can I say. It crosses my bbb. it gives me pinned pupils, the itch, and opiate euphoria. what else can I say?
 
^loperamide is somewhat structurally related to fentanyl and meperidine and is undeniably an opioid. It *does* cross the BBB however the vast majority of it is exported back across the BBB by P-glycoprotein resulting in negligible CNS effects but prominent GI effects at therapeutic doses. At supratherapeutic doses, or with sufficiently strong P-gp inhibitors, enough can get through the CNS to produce central effects... although they are not nearly as pronounced or euphoric as full agonists that don't have BBB-crossing issues. I don't really have the desire to track down sources for all of this right now, but if you're still interested PM me and I'll find some for you.

I have used high doses to wean off opioids with great effect several times... and by this I mean 80% reduction in w/d symptoms from morphine withdrawal and I probably could've taken higher doses and relieved more but I wanted to be safe.

Also... as far as wikipedia pages for things like pharmaceuticals, its just as accurate as any encyclopedia. They are monitored both regularly and strictly for content and although false/misleading information is posted at times, it doesn't last.

Wikipedia has been tested in accuracy against other common encyclopedias many times and was found as accurate. The difference is there are pages on pop culture shit like songs where people put bullshit up but when it comes to a page like "loperamide" the info is solid... not that I rely on that for information, but it covers basics well.
______________________________

Admittedly I haven't read every single post in this thread but I have seen the OP call people addicts and all this over and over here and elsewhere and I want to address that.

First off, if you call someone something like an addict, its not going to go over well whether its real or not. Addiction is a medical issue with a stigma and whether its true or not, how would you feel if people were repeatedly accusing you of having syphilis or something? Its not civil to call people out like this and its not going to go over well... whether you believe you're doing it for their own good or not, it doesn't help.

Next... as I said, addiction is a medical issue and as such it requires a diagnosis by a medical professional to really have any validity and you can't diagnose people at a distance, furthermore you aren't a doctor.

When doctors, drug counselors and other addiction professionals DO diagnose people, they don't call them addicts, they call them substance dependent (which is a bit confusing because it does not mean they necessarily ARE physically dependent and if they are, this alone does not make someone substance dependent, aka an addict).

I have heard that in the DSM-V they are going to change the diagnosis to "addicted" for clarification but for our purposes "addicted" and "substance dependent" are synonymous.

For someone to be diagnosed as substance dependent they have to meet the following requirement (somewhat abridged for concision)-



4 of these 7 must be present to be eligible for this diagnosis and the fact is, people can be on maintenance medication and not be addicts/physically dependent.

Tolerance and withdrawal are inevitable with drugs like suboxone or methadone but people can and do take stable doses over a longer period or even reduce doses. You don't need to spend a lot of time trying to get and using suboxone (although if people ARE prepping, shooting, thinking about it all day, this is different then taking a pill every am or stopping at a clinic).

Furthermore, many on maintenance are content and don't desire to cut down or try to reduce their doses and fail. People don't need to give up important social, recreational or occupational activities due to sub/'done and these drugs can be taken for years without dangerous physiological effects so people aren't using despite really any risk.

I am NOT saying that no one on maintenance is actively addicted and most who get on maintenance were at some point, but many are on maintenance medication and don't meet these criteria.

______________________________
tl,dr: you are doing more harm for your message by calling people addicts whether you are right or wrong and people can successfully maintain and lead healthy lives free of addiction.

Ok, well I apologize if I came across judgemental, which I clearly did. I don't mean to cross paths with people - especially experienced forum members.

But I just want people to know that there is life after these maintenance drugs. The belief that I was "just taking my medication like other people with diseases do" only kept me, and me personally, on suboxone for so long when it was unnecessary. I did not feel I was an addict when I was on the subs, at least in the traditional sense. But I sure as hell felt like an addict when I was getting off of it, and all of my feinding behavior returned, but was directed towards suboxone.

I just hope people can find happiness. And from my narrow experience, I found that true happiness and inner peace cannot be found while on an opiate maintenance drug. But that was only me, so I hope others achieve it whatever way they can.

I just know I am feeling so much better now that I am off suboxone. Life finally has colors again, and I feel deep emotions that I didn't even realize I wasn't feeling while on the medication. And I'm no longer enslaved by my medication, and risk going into withdrawal if anything were to happen to it. It's amazing to be clean from opiates. It really is.
 
Curleygurl... It's no miracle you haven't experienced WD's following a slow taper from 16mg to 1mg. There are literally hundreds of postings in addiction forums confirming this is [relatively] easily accomplished when following a systematic strategy. The real challege begins when [if] you decide to titrate your dose from 1mg to zero. Thats where JamesBrowns claims and beliefs differ from the mainstream. A very small minority report little or no significant WD's when making the final drop off bupe.

There's no miracle drug to cure addicition. At least none on the market yet. Buprenorphine is an opiate replacement drug. It's used for ORT [opiate replacement therapy] and is essentially replacing one opiate for another. Bupe has been reported to be at least 20X more potent than morphine... so when your taking 1mg, thats still a significant level of narcotic in your system.

Unfortunately, there are many subs dr's who either mislead or fail to imform their patients regarding the WD potential when finally quitting. I personally believe much more people than not experience serious WD's when quitting bupe. There are many factors involved in the severity of WD's experienced when stopping your dose.... which I won't get into.

From what I've read about JamesB experience [i could have missed a post] is that he hasn't been completely off bupe for more than a week since his induction... so he can't actually provide you with an experience regarding PAWS. Both Acutes and PAWS are real obsticles to overcome when your goal is abstinence from subs. If this is your ultimate goal... hopefully you will be among those fortunate few who have an easy time with it. But don't be surprised if you continue to taper to zero and feel a fair amount of WD discomfort.... short and long term. If you've only been on a few mos... it shouldn't be near as bad as us "long termers".
 
Last edited:
I just know I am feeling so much better now that I am off suboxone. Life finally has colors again, and I feel deep emotions that I didn't even realize I wasn't feeling while on the medication. And I'm no longer enslaved by my medication, and risk going into withdrawal if anything were to happen to it. It's amazing to be clean from opiates. It really is.

I can personally confirm your experience. I had a 5 1/2 year period of total "sobriety" many yrs ago and had all the same feelings as you. Life was great and much better than ORT. Unfortunately I had several major stressors within a 6mo period [job loss, fathers death, divorce, relocation] and my solution to avoid these "pains" was with opiates.
 
I am on my BlackBerry so its a little tricky to cite the parts I'd like to quote, but overall I thought these last posts from subdude and citio were truly excellent! Also, no need to apologize citio as I never thought you were being judgmental, I was more so addressing DKblaze about some things I've read in here, elsewhere and through pm's between us.

When I'm officially an addiction professional in the field, unlike many I know, I won't be fervently pro- or anti- ORT/maintenance.

I think with the successful marketing and forum discussion regarding sub, too many people with short-term opioid abuse issues turn to maintenance and no other treatment when detox alongside counseling, support groups, etc would produce far better results for them.

Overcoming drug abuse issues/addiction isn't just about preventing AW symptoms and PAWS but fully addressing the problems and moving on in life and from what I see here, many don't even attempt to make these changes but expect taking a pill to be sufficient and you're right citio, they may be able to maintain, but its a harsh fucking reality when you try to jump off after addressing the addiction issues in no other way.

I think the 'disease' model is good to demonstrate how addiction isn't a choice but many take it too far and act as if it can be handled with a simple pill as if its an infection. Addiction is a biopsychosocial disease and if you only address one aspect of that (bio) the other parts will persist.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying anyone who has been physically dependent needs to go to 90 day inpatient rehab then 90 meetings in 90 days... Or even must do outpatient counseling, but if nothing is done, the reasons why you used and effects it had won't be 'cured' by buprenorphine.

_____________________
when I read the OP before it was edited I thought about closing this because it was kind of a mess, but we have had some really worthwhile discussion since so I'm very glad I didn't!
 
Thank you Cane, for several great posts in a sea of madness.....I'm amazed and impressed with your patience and composure. IDEAL traits for the fields you are heading towards. Bravo!<3
 
Top