• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

Suboxone Detox DISASTER + H questions! Please help!

Yes, got your pm. Today is my first day of winter holiday from school, so I'll get to your message sooner than later.

In terms of DXM, I'd suggest waiting until you're in mild withdrawal and then trying about 150mg (or half a standard bottle of 350-ish mg), and going from there. If you are familiar with DXM you can just take the whole 350mg, but best to make sure you can tolerate the side effects. As long as you're in withdrawal when you take it and you can just isolate yourself from the world while you're under the influence, it should help you feel pretty good (meaning like you aren't withdrawing).

Just another word of caution though, really try to avoid mixing anything with DXM. After it has worn off you can dose with something to help you sleep or for RLS, just make sure you look up any potentiate side effects, etc. DXM is serious stuff after all, but the benefits it can give in terms of acute withdrawal can be pretty spectacular (very similar to iboga in this regard - serious medicine, but also serious potential).
 
Hi TPD...congrats on your break from school!
I’m not familiar with DXM at all, actually. As of the time of writing this, I’ve taken 210 mg of it on an empty stomach, and that was about an hour and 15 min ago. I would def say I am not noticing as many withdrawal symptoms, still a little RLS, and some stomach stuff, but mostly I just feel a little loopy...almost as if I was very mildly drunk off of several gross, syrupy shots (I imagine all the high fructose corn syrup in the Vicks 44 can’t be the best for one’s stomach). I am curious about the dissociative properties of DXM but I also don’t want to be a drooling mess. I was contemplating taking more but I probably won’t. For future reference though, what is the dose of DXM that most people start to trip off? Also, in reference to your comment that taking a morphine pill wouldn’t start the whole withdrawal thing over, can I mix that with DXM? The RLS thing is killing me, and I’m not sure if I can take gabapentin with DXM, as I know I shouldn’t use Kratom on it, so I was wondering if taking a 30 mg morphine sulfate XR would be OK.
 
Thanks, ElleAZ! Sorry for the late reply; I just saw this! The Kratom was no biggie for me, thankfully. Nor was the DXM, actually. I really do just have some sort of insane tolerance for virtually everything. Sigh. I’m still sloooowwly withdrawing but soon I’ll be opiate-free, and that will mean I’ll have peeled the biggest monkey off my back that I could ever have imagined, which I will be very inwardly proud of! I appreciate you taking the time to post, and your kind words/encouragement. I hope you are doing OK, yourself, and that you enjoy the holidays!
 
Hi TPD...congrats on your break from school!
I’m not familiar with DXM at all, actually. As of the time of writing this, I’ve taken 210 mg of it on an empty stomach, and that was about an hour and 15 min ago. I would def say I am not noticing as many withdrawal symptoms, still a little RLS, and some stomach stuff, but mostly I just feel a little loopy...almost as if I was very mildly drunk off of several gross, syrupy shots (I imagine all the high fructose corn syrup in the Vicks 44 can’t be the best for one’s stomach). I am curious about the dissociative properties of DXM but I also don’t want to be a drooling mess. I was contemplating taking more but I probably won’t. For future reference though, what is the dose of DXM that most people start to trip off? Also, in reference to your comment that taking a morphine pill wouldn’t start the whole withdrawal thing over, can I mix that with DXM? The RLS thing is killing me, and I’m not sure if I can take gabapentin with DXM, as I know I shouldn’t use Kratom on it, so I was wondering if taking a 30 mg morphine sulfate XR would be OK.

Do you have anything like Tiger Balm? Or like Vicks Vapor Rub? That kind of super menthol stuff can be massaged into the muscles and joints of the legs to basically cure RLS. Highly recommended.

I'd avoid taking the morphine with the DXM. DXM has funny properties in terms of how it works and is metabolized. If you have time I'd suggest you check out the DXM FAQ on erowid: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/

DXM isn't going to help you sleep, so ideally you might take some kind of safe sleeping pill. But I've done it plenty of time with just DXM, so if you just let yourself sleep you'll be fine (insomnia is just weird for me).

When I was using DXM for detoxing from heroin I'd use 350mg around 9-10am, then another 350 around 5-6pm. Sometimes I'd take a dose of about 700mg, or potentiate the DXM as little using cimetidine (not at all healthy, but pretty interesting and unique).

If you were to take some morphine for RLS, I'd seriously try to take like 5mg, or a tiny tiny dose.

It would be more advisable to take gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam or another drug I forget the name of (it is the only medication specifically for RLS...) over an opioid, given you situation.

If you have music to listen to, especially using headphones, it really amplified things IME.



or better yet...



:)

stay safe and have fun; and get well soon!

And I"m sorry about the pm I owe you still. I'm really out of it from kratom withdrawal right now, but I'll get to it. I've a number other chores first, but really right now I just need to chill and relax. Kratom withdrawal is super weird... I'll write about it in my own recovery journal soon enough though

Now I think I'm going to sit by a candle reading Thich Nhat Hanh's journals from the 60's. It's pretty good.
 
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Thanks, TPD. Quick question, though: Are you advising against morphine bc of my detox situation, or because of how it would interact with DXM?

And yes, I do have Tiger Balm, actually. I don’t know why I hadn’t thought to use it before as I’ve been using those OTC icy hot patches for my back. Thanks! Sometimes I swear my mind is just gone these days.
 
Taking a hot bath or shower and then applying Tiger Balm by massaging it into your calves, thigh muscles, and your ankle and knee joints will blow your mind. Oh my god that feels good when RLS is bad. It’s more fun when someone else applies it, but doing it yourself is still amazing.

I advise caution with the morphine because the DXM may potentiate/interact with it in unpredictable ways. I also advise caution because of your current detox. You will have to experiment to see what works for you, just start low and be very conservative with it.

Ideally you want a dose that produces enough analgesia but doesn’t actually present in terms of a opioid high, if that makes any sense. And just because you’re detoxing from opioids, taking more opioids may extend the process (though with the total amount you have I don think this will be an issue).
 
Thanks again, TPD. That clarified things. And yes, I took your advice and liberally applied a bunch of Tiger Balm all over my legs. It did help! I can’t sleep for sh*t, though. It’s 4am where I live right now and I’m still wide awake. My partner and I are now on totally different schedules. She basically wakes up when or shortly after I finally crash for a couple of hours. I think the sleep deprivation is starting to get to me. But I see the light at the end of the tunnel —being totally opiate free, including off of legal, doctor-supervised ORT, will be such a huge accomplishment for my mentally, emotionally, and psychologically! I can’t wait. I figure it took me almost six years to get here, so a month or two of misery is fitting penance (sorry for the self-flagellating lingo....I’m a long-recovered baptized Catholic, but man does that sh*t stick when you’re an impressionable child! I’m “spiritual” or “agnostic” now...hate organized religion but I do ascribe to many aspects of various Eastern religions and their practices like mindfulness and meditation, self-observation and looking/working inward for answers, affinity to and reverence for nature, etc).

Also, I’m very interested in what you messaged me about. Looking forward to when you get a chance to reply to my response, as I’d love to learn more, actively participate, and I’m really flattered you asked me! Hope to hear from you soon. ? -hspikes
 
I hope you are able to find ways of managing your symptoms more effectively. This probably means some kind(s) of medications for a month or two, but there is nothing wrong with that. You should be able to manage your symptoms without using opioid based medication if that is what you want (and if you find you can't, you can address that down the road if/when you come to that realization). You can pretty easily avoid issues with ongoing use of said medication if you just use it as prescribed.

Do you have access to a non-habit forming sleeping aid? They only can help so much during acute withdrawal, but definitely are useful to have around for the first year of abstinence. Something like trazadone or Seroquel is commonly used for this purpose, but there are lots of other options too (although they tend to be related to sedating antidepressants and sedating atypical antipsychotics in terms of the non-habit forming stuff). Sometimes, when one has a shitty day going to bed at 8pm is the most skillful thing one can do.

I believe there is a pretty vibrant Refuge Recovery group culture in NYC. With you're interest in recovery and mindfulness oriented meditation, you might benefit from checking them out. I prefer the Against the Stream groups (ATS is more harm reduction oriented, RR is more abstinence-only oriented), but have benefited from engagement with both groups.

Yes, I still need to send you that PM :) I need to figure out what I personally need in that kind of system, but I promise I'll get to it today. I also need to create recovery journal thread for myself today. I'm just feeling a little lazy as my day just started, so I'll probably get to this stuff a little later, after I medicate, have breakfast, clean up a bit, you know - the morning routine :)

Today is my first full day of winter holiday, with time off from grad school, and I have nothing to do but try to enjoy myself as I detox myself from kratom. I am SO thrilled to finally have the time to devote myself entirely to getting off kratom. I've been literally waiting for months, as I wasn't comfortable doing it while I had work to do for class.

I'm discovering how remarkably easier it is getting off a few months of daily kratom than a similar situation with opioids. A little gabapentin helped with the restlessness and cravings yesterday, CBD made it even easier, and I have zero desire to use kratom. I even slept really well with just 50mg of trazadone and a little melatonin last night, so I'm doing pretty well as far as I'm concerned. But I want to get setup with the SLiPP thing, been wanting to for a while now, so today's a perfect day to get to it.

In terms of insomnia, something I realized when I was getting off methadone and had really difficult insomnia, was that sometimes when I can't sleep trying to sleep doesn't help. It actually can make it more uncomfortable. So, at a certain point, after I obviously am having trouble sleeping, getting out of bed, listening to NPR episodes (Radio Lab, Snap Judgement, Note to Self, etc are all great shows to listen to when you can't sleep), or reading a book is what I'll do, or even going out for a walk. Going out for late night/early morning walks when most everyone else was still asleep was actually a lot of fun when I detoxed from methadone. It in many ways kept me sane while I dealt with the insomnia for a few weeks. Making a cup of non-stimulating late night tea and really savoring the process of making and consuming it is also delightful, but late night walks are really where it's at with severe insomnia IMHO.

It's just a matter of time till your body adjusts to its new state of equilibrium, or life without opioids. The concept of homeostasis is rather misleading, but it helpful in this specific instance. Try and do whatever you can to keep yourself comfortable during the time it takes to adjust. It won't be forever like I said, so it's just a matter of doing what you can to increase your QOL while you undergo these changes.

The biggest challenge with what you're currently doing is how to go about it all skillfully. That means exploring safe, healthy ways of being kinder and gentler with yourself and your process. In American culture, and in most cultures for that matter, learning to be kinder and gentler with one's self in healthy ways can be quite the challenge. We're all about doing, producing, making money and "success." But what good is material success if you're miserable and addicted?

Material success is necessary, but so to is learning to take good care of yourself in terms of physical, emotional and psychological needs (and we all have them, though they might look a little different from person to person, they tend to center around how we bond and connect (or how we struggle to find connection) with others). Learning ways to be kind and gentle with yourself in healthy ways is a lot more nuanced that it might sound - which is to say what being kind and gentle means won't necessarily be self evidence, and you'll have to explore and experiment to see what it really means for you.

But that's what long term recovery is all about: learning to explore and discovering what does and does not work well given your own unique, individual set of needs (again, the entirety of your physiological, emotional and psychological biopsychosocial needs).

I'll PM you soon about the SLiPP though :)
 
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TPD, someone else send me a message and I responded and now it says I have to “wait 180 minutes” to reply to any other messages. What is the deal with that? That seems an unreasonably long time (3 hours?) even if you’re trying to ensure that newbies aren’t spammers or worse. I got your PMs...thank you so much. Like I said, I will respond as soon as possible. Today through the weekend is wonky for me w/my mom, etc. How long until I can send messages normally? I hope you eventually see this.
 
That's the deal when you're a GLer. Used to be you couldn't send any messages until reach BLer status IIRC. It can be frustrating sometimes, but for a number of reasons our new policy where GLers can send pms if of limited number is a pretty good system. We were able to connect though, so alls well that ends well.

How's your Thursday going? Any plans for the end of the week?
 
TPD, managed to haul my ass downtown to work today, albeit feeling like Death incarnate. I messaged you on Skype btw. Any hot Thursday activities in your roster? I’ll be caring for my mom this weekend, but she’s a hoot, even with her TBI. She’s recovering well but very depressed, and since I’m also depressed, that can be a challenge to hide from her, but I make it work. We maybe will decorate her xMas tree, drink some eggnog. Balls to the walls, us gals! Lol
 
I've had a craving for eggnog recently. I'll check out Skype in a bit :)
 
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