Suboxone Detox DISASTER + H questions! Please help!

[harlemspikes]

Three weeks ago today—after three and a half years on 8-16mg of Suboxone a day following a serious prescription pill problem (hundreds of mgs/day for over two years)—I jumped off Suboxone. But not really, because I obtained about 100 10mg oxycodone caplets and some 30mg XR Morphine sulfate pills—figuring if I went back to taking *just enough* pills to keep me from getting sick each day, lowering the mgs each day, I’d be able to bypass the worst of Suboxone withdrawals and just deal with the pill withdrawals, which I’ve read time and again are way shorter in duration and intensity than the detox from long-term Suboxone use. I’ve felt low-grade flu-like symptoms but nothing so awful that I couldn’t function.

I’m now almost out of pills except the little purple morphine pills (which if I were using to get off, I’d crush and mix with water to plug) and a bag of heroin I got long ago. I have only ever snorted H (or miserably failed at chasing the dragon), never mainlined, but now I feel myself tempted to try the latter, as I cut up the two brown rocks of H into powder and snorting it is doing nothing for me (yes, I’m aware I still have “junkie/addict” mentality for wanting to get off one last time. I had planned to jump off for real [cold turkey] tomorrow, but I’m scared. I did see Robert235’s Suboxone taper plan and could always go back on them, as I have a huge stash of 8mg strips—I get 60/month from my doc but never take as much as prescribed)—and I have also reviewed the Thomas Recipe and purchased the recommended supplements for it. I do have prescriptions for Klonopin, Xanax, and a bunch of old Gabapentin, though I’ve never really know what Gaba is for. I also bought some Kratom to try after reading about that).

I guess I have two main questions: When I *really* jump off, how long am I going to be miserable for? I was clinically depressed BEFORE I started using, and the euphoria/energy from the pills is what got me hooked on them. The depression scares me much more than physical withdrawal. Should I try the Kratom along with the Thomas Recipe? Or is that just setting me up for more withdrawals down the line?

Also, I am snorting and attempting to smoke the H I have today, and I feel basically nothing. I’m female in my early 30s and I live in NYC...usually used to get white-ish powder or easily crushable rocks. This was medium brown and came in two easily crushable rocks. I tried smoking it (which I’m admittedly terrible at) and it smelled acrid-sweet. Should I try shooting it (which, again, I’ve never done)? Or is it fake?

I’m aware the content of this makes me seem like some sort of moron, taking my drugs of choice to get OFF drugs, but my Suboxone doctor would have me stay on that high dose of it FOREVER if she could, and I just want to be quote-unquote “normal.” But at the same time, I wouldn’t mind feeling a little euphoria one last time. It’s been years. I can honestly say I no longer “crave” opiates at all, or even think about them usually. It seems the high levels of bupe for so many years have maybe messed up my brain’s opiate receptors to the point where getting off is impossible, even three weeks in with zero bupe now possibly left in my system. What’s going on? Is my H fake or is my body just permanently pulling a Nancy Reagan on me and “saying NO to drugs?”

I know this message is muddled and filled with random questions, so I’d very much appreciate responses from anyone who can help with any of them. Thanks so much!

 

[biggerard123]

im in the same boat but being on subs for 2 years plus....i ordered u48800 and 2fma from china to have a shorter acting opiod to go on for a couple weeks then just touph it out. I have krantom and gaba with clonidene in stock. I moved from nj to florida and nj there is heroin everywere nothing here in florida at all hence the order from china and not for nothing 200 heroin wouldnt last me weeks any ways. I hope it works out for you man i got my tolerance up high with the subs moving here 2 months ago i had a 120 subs now im down to 2 doing the fastest withdrawal till saturday when my order comes. my wife is holding 4 subs as my back up plan if anything....subs worst decision ever never ever ever again will i take this crap

 

[harlemspikes]

Hi and thanks for responding, biggerard123! I, too, regret being on Subs for years, but I don’t regret going on them when I did. I credit them with saving my life, actually, as I was spending thousands of dollars (literally) a week on Oxys off the street, and I was in no place mentally to quit on my own. I was addicted not only physically but very much psychologically, and the Subs helped me to stop craving the euphoria from the pills. I wouldn’t have been able to get off Oxy when I did without Suboxone or even just straight up buprenorphine. I think the problem with Suboxone is that most doctors don’t understand how it’s supposed to be used: as a short-term replacement (a couple months at MOST, and I don’t think ANYONE needs more than 4 mgs to maintain...meanwhile they just stick people on 16 mgs and leave theme there for years. Hence my situation! Buprenorphine is soooo much stronger than heroin, Morphine, oxy, etc combined, even though it’s a partial antagonist: Apparently after years of use it really kills those receptors in our brains, or impairs them for a long time). I’m sorry to hear you wish you’d never taken them, but if they got you off street or abusing Rx drugs, that’s one step in the right direction. I heard Clonidine works for DTs but I don’t have an Rx for that. I do have Gabapentin (Neurontin) as I said, but I don’t really understand what it’s for. I do hope your China stuff works, but please be careful. A lot of that overseas crap is fake or cut with bad sh*t.

If you can’t handle the withdrawals, there are lots of methods on here that I’ve researched and some people swear by them. I bought everything for the Thomas Recipe, but since I’m still taking low doses of oxy/Morphine, and sadly, am attempting to use heroin one last time today, I’m probably a bad person to give you advice on anything. All I know is I was depressed BEFORE I got addicted, which is basically WHY I got addicted. Oxy made me feel happy and “normal,” like I had interest in doing things and talking to people again. That feeling is hard to pass up when you haven’t had it since childhood. Either way, I wish you luck. If it’s too hard for you, I’d go back on the Subs (*lowest dose possible* that gets rid of withdrawals!), then taper down slowly and try to get into a clinic or something that can professionally supervise your detox, assuming you have insurance that might cover it. Stay strong! I have no doubt that both of us can do this if we put all of our willpower into it.

 

[harlemspikes]

biggarard123 Have you tried Kratom before? I never even knew it existed until recently through perusing Bluelight forums. Sounds interesting but I also hear you can experience withdrawals from Kratom itself. I bought a small amount of three different veins: red, white and green. It’s supposed to arrive tomorrow. Little apprehensive about it!

 

[CFC]

Hey harlemspikes, welcome to Bluelight!

Really sorry to hear about your situation

I'm going to move this over to Sober Living as they'll probably be able to give you more precise help on what you're going through.

OD --> Sober Living

 

[Jabberwocky]

I’ll reply in more detail when I’m back at my computer, but in the mean time try and find yourself a supply of comfort meds - in particular gabapentin, clonidine and something like diazepam or clonazepam. You can also use loperamide for GI stuff.

You aren’t feeling more from the heroin due to your high tolerance to opioids and possibly low quality gear (mostly tolerance though).

How much morphine or oxycodone have you had to use each day to keep buprenorphine withdrawal at bay?

It is hard to say how long withdrawal will last for you. Because you were in a high dose of buprenorphine for quite some time and didn’t taper slowly off it, you can expect the worse. So that means maybe a month or two of shitty shitty withdrawal. But since you’ve been taking other opioids to mask it, I doubt you’d have more than a week or two left if dealing with acute withdrawal once you discontinue all opioids.

That said, buprenorphine withdrawal tends to be a little more forgiving (in the sense of acuity) than full agonists like heroin. The withdrawal does last longer, but it tends to be a little less intense. I’d expect you to feel pretty uncomfortable for 1-4 more weeks, mostly dealing with insomnia, malaise, mood swings, RLS and GI issues.

Comfort meds (again, clonidine, gabapentin, diazepam, loperamide and perhaps another sleep aid) will keep your final detox much more managible than without.

Have you ever used any of those comfort meds before?

• 0.2mg clonidine is taken once to twice a day (it can lower blood pressure dramatically so you need to make sure it’s safe for you to use, but short of a known pre-existing condition you shouldn’t have to worry about it; just be careful when rising/standing from a seated or laying down position or you might feel like you’re blacking out due to it lowering yourself ur Bp);
  
• 800mg gabapentin 3-4 time a day (basically just take as much as you need, you don’t need to worry about ODing on gabapentin)
  
• 10mg diazepam or 1mg clonazepam two to three times a day
  
• Enough loperamide to make you stop shitting yourself
• Some kind of non-habit forming sleep aid like trazadone or Seroquel

You want to take these meds for about two weeks, although you can continue using the sleep aid and gabapentin for longer if RLS and insomnia linger as they tend to with buprenorphine.

I highly recommend you work with a doctor on this. Any knowledgeable doctor will be fine prescribing said meds, although some might have an issue with the benzo.

If you want to go the kratom route you’ll still want to have other comfort meds available and you should avoid taking kratom longer than 1-2 weeks. FYI if you’re so tolerant to heroin right now you don’t even feel it, it is highly unlikely you’ll feel kratom much at all. Best case scenario it helps with some of the withdrawal, but it won’t be super crazy helpful like it can be with less tolerance.

If you don’t mind the side effects of dissociatives, DXM is a fantastic way to detox from opioids. The relief is brings during acute withdrawal is something else. However if you aren’t familiar with DXM or other dissociatives I’d recommend treating with caution. But IME it works just as well as iboga.

Now, with the understanding you seem to want away from ORT, have you ever considered methadone OP? It tends to provide much more support than getting buprenorphine from a doctor, and you decision to use heroin again (you seem like you plan to chip once you’re off), it is the sort of warning sign that indicates you’d benefit from another form of treatment. Don’t write if off entirely at this point; if you can’t deal once off the buprenorphine/other opioids it is a very viable option for you that will probably work better than buprenorphine.

I should probably ask though, what are you goals with getting off buprenorphine? Like, what led you to want to get off? What are your thoughts about ongoing drug use after you get off, particularly related to opioids?

And again let me emphasize how important comfort meds are. There is no reason a doctor wouldn’t prescribe you gabapentin and clonidine to deal with the acute withdrawal, and it makes more of a difference than I can begin to explain - and they’re much more versatile than kratom.

 

[harlemspikes]

Hi, toothpastedog! Thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful response. CFC, thank you, also, for moving the thread here. I appreciate your support immensely.

I don’t have a ton of time to reply tonight, as my partner is home and she has zero idea about any heroin use (past or present, although she knows about my former huge pill habit and my subsequent long-term Suboxone Rx—and is very supportive of me, luckily for me! She’s amazing and put up with a lot of BS from me as an addict!), but I absolutely can reply more tomorrow morning and I hope you will be on here at some point mañana to write back, if you’re willing. ??

A couple of terms you used I didn’t understand. What do you mean by “chip?” Does that mean you are mostly sober but will use occasionally? If so, no, that’s not my plan. I wanted to try to “get off” one last time with heroin, I guess as a psychologically misguided, addict-mindset way of “rewarding” myself for almost four year of sobriety from abusing non-prescribed opiates. I am well aware, however, that Suboxone and bupe are still extremely powerful opiates themselves, and my goal is to get clean, PERIOD. I did a lot of research before jumping off the Subs, even at such a high dosage, which I know isn’t recommended. But I do think after three weeks the buprenorphine must be out of my system by now, even with its super long half-life. My intent was to use the oxys and Morphine as a cushion, per se, to avoid the more extensive withdrawals from suboxone. Im tapering down each day by 15-25% in the amount of other opiates I consume. I started out with about 120 mgs of oxy daily—the lowest I could initially go without getting sick; now I’m down to 30 mg of morphine sulfate once a day. The problem is that those little purple Morphine pills are extended release, so I don’t know if I should split one in half tomorrow and try to work off that, then the next day take a quarter, then jump off entirely using the Kratom and other “helper” meds short-term? I do have a significant amount of 400 mg Gabapentin pills, so thank you for letting me know how much of those I should take. I also have in my possession loperamide, Klonopin (30 1 mg pills), Xanax (30 2mg extended release pills and my gf has 30 2 mg bars), and I bought all the minerals the Thomas Recipe suggested (magnesium, copper, zinc, potassium, phosphorus, vitamin B6, l-tyrosine, etc), plus zzquil sleeping pills. I might actually have some Trazadone somewhere, too! I’m hoping this arsenal of meds and minerals, plus the Kratom, will help me get through a week or so of physical hell! But the long-term depression is what scares me most. However, my real reason for wanting to get off Subs is that I want my brain back. They do numb me out to reality, in some ways. They’ve gotten me through some terrible familial tragedies that have happened recently (I don’t know how I would have dealt with some of this sh*t without being somewhat emotionally numb), but enough is enough. While I credit Subs with saving my life, I wish my doctors had only prescribed them for a month or two tops, and at a much lower dosage. 16 mg is just excessive and it has ravaged my opiate receptors. I also have frequent short- and long-term memory loss that I chalk up to suboxone and pill abuse, as my memory was great prior to becoming an addict. I’m still relatively young (34), in a relationship with someone I love very much and who does not do drugs at all and barely drinks, and I may want kids soon. I just want to be clean. However; if I can’t manage that without bupe, I will go straight back on the suboxone, as nothing is worth sinking to the dark, hideous, and painful (to me AND my incredible loved ones!) place in which I existed when I “hit bottom” almost four years ago.
I was destroying my life and hurting others, too, and I never want to be that person again! I refuse to be, in fact.

Some of the things you said I don’t know about. What is DXM and ORT? Also, any help with using Kratom would be awesome, as I really have no idea what to do with the stuff, how to injest it, how much of it to take, etc. I just bought an ounce exo if the red, white, and green kinds, plus some sort of elixir that’s a blend of 8 kinds or something? No clue how to use any of it. Any and all help I’m extremely thankful for! Thank you all again. You guys are lifesavers on this site. Quite literally. I’m really glad I finally signed up and posted!

PS. I did about 80 worth of H, snorting and smoking it throughout today, and I plugged about 7 of the morphine pills. Decided trying to tie off for the first time when I’m trying to GET OFF ALL opiates is probably the most idiotic and nonsensical decision I could make. But only after consuming (in one way or another) all that dope did I get ANY kind of buzz or high, which I have still going for me right now, but it’s fairly mild. Just relaxed, chill, a very slight nod here and there. Pinned pupils, got a major burst of energy a few hours ago and scrubbed my kitchen like a crack fiend. I guess that tells you a bit about my tolerance: It’s that of a horse, apparently, and no pun intended on the “horse.” ? But, like I said, today was a MAJOR exception. My last hurrah. Prior to today I had tapered to one morphine pill per day, and tomorrow I might try just a half, then a quarter, then jump off the opiates entirely, as I said before. No way I’m using large quantities of ANYTHING like that again. I don’t care how sick I feel tomorrow—it will not deter me from my goal!

Thank you thank you thank you again and I hope so much you’ll be able to reply with some Kratom pointers and any other tips for my situation/strange self-designed detox plan! ?????

 

[simco]

Hi, harlemspikes...first off, I think I can clarify some of the terms TPD used (obviously correct me if I'm wrong, TPD). "Chipping" refers to using, but doing it rarely/at small enough doses so you don't develop a habit. DXM refers to Dextromethorphan, a dissociative that is present in certain over-the-counter cough medications. ORT stands for 'opioid replacement therapy'...approaches like methadone maintenance and suboxone treatment fall under this category.

I totally understand the urge to get off one more time before cleaning up. As I'm sure you know, unfortunately this rarely works in practice, much as chipping almost always leads to habitual using. I encourage you to *try* (I know how hard it is) to make a hard break with the dope when you're ready to...it makes life much simpler, especially early on in recovery, if you can make your goals as concrete as possible.

As far as kratom goes, it can help with WDs. But as TPD mentioned, it's the case generally, and especially given your tolerance, that kratom rarely evens things out completely. I'd strongly prefer a doctor-supervised detox with modern comfort meds than trying to control things with kratom. The comfort meds would be more helpful and less prone to causing trouble down the line.

That said, kratom isn't hard to use...it can be a bit tricky to find a dose that's right for you, but other than that, no big deal. Most people either swallow the kratom powder with a gulp of water, aka 'toss and wash'. Many people find toss n wash to be pretty unpleasant (I'm among them). If that's the case, brewing kratom tea is easy (a google search will turn up tons of info).

In theory, the red varieties of kratom are reputed to be more sedating, while the white strains are rumored to be more stimulating, with green somewhere in the middle. Though I have to admit that these qualities have never been very pronounced to me. One thing worth mentioning is that most of the kratom that's sold in head shops or similar places is really poor quality. If you plan to rely on kratom seriously, I would do some internet research to find a reputable source.

Let me know if there are other details you'd like.

Good luck! You're gonna be OK

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks simco

OP I'll respond to your reply to my earlier post later today.

Be well everyone

 

[harlemspikes]

simco and tpd, thank you for your replies! simco, I appreciate the clarification of the abbreviations. Even though I was a pretty hardcore user, I didn’t talk about it with many people or have friends who used. Still don’t.

So, yes, I totally understand what you are both saying about chipping and doctor supervision. However, I was hesitant to approach my doc about it bc she’s very strict and I basically hoard Suboxone bc I’m afraid funding will be cut eventually and if I can’t jump off successfully, I can maintain for literally years off a few 30 day prescriptions of 60 8 mg strips (I don’t think I’d need more than 1 to 2 mgs tops/day at this point to feel comfortable). Also, she would most likely make me go back on the Subs and begin a new taper, something I’d really like to avoid now that I’m over three weeks off bupe. I don’t want to start the whole peocess over again, especially since I was able to cushion the worst of the initial detox with a large quantity of oxy that I will not be able to obtain a second time around.

I guess my desire to get off on the H yesterday probably seemed like I plan to chip here and there—I don’t. I used heavily yesterday purposely, but today, for the first time in almost six years, I took nothing: zero opiates whatsoever. I still have Morphine pills, but I just jumped off and really to be clean. I’d like to try to get pregnant this year and staying off drugs is not only important to me, it’s literally the only option for me. I guess my level of commitment to being opiate-free was overshadowed on my post by my silly desire to get really high one last time. That didn’t really work, anyway, and as the night wore on, I realized how stupid it was.

Today, thus far, I was able to keep myself feeling pretty OK with the 800mgs of Gabapentin every four hours, Aleve, vitamins, and Xanax, but I know I’ll really start to feel things tomorrow through the next several days. Luckily, I took some time off work and school (I’m going back for a career in the medical field, of all things, haha) for the rest of the week to push through. I think I might give the Kratom tea a try tomorrow, and simco, I did do a research and bought it through a reputable online retailer suggested by regular users both on Bluelight and Reddit. I’m just wondering with my ridiculous tolerance to opiates, how many grams I should start with and which kind (red, green, or white). Do I want stimulation or relaxation more during more severe DTs?

I’m willing to try DXM if it helps. What exactly contains it and how much is a therapeutic dose? To answer your question about disassociatives, tpd, I’ve tried every type of drug you can think of (including past heavy using of the disassociative ketamine, on which I had my most spiritual drug experiences) starting from when I was 16, and I loved pretty much all of them. So I fear not when it comes to disassociatives! Was able to keep all drug (including marijuana) and alcohol use to a level of moderation/social dabbling until I met opioids and my brain said, “Hello, gorgeous...” ?? But I always had a strangely huge tolerance for things and the ability to keep in control (other than on the poppy, of course). Kind of weird because I’m of average height and “athletic” weight, and always have been, so it must be genetic. My father was the most raging alcoholic I ever knew. I never saw anyone drink like that. Sadly, he became homeless and was killed in an unsolved hit and run on Christmas Eve when I was 24, in 2008. I don’t want to wind up like him, as much as I loved him! Befor Sub therapy, I was headed straight for “living under the bridge with a shopping cart full of possessions and used syringes” terroritory—not that I’m mocking anyone in that terrible place. I truly empathize with any and all addicts, and being one myself, I’d be a huge hypocrite to judge.

I really appreciate all of your help and support, as I keep saying. I may be on Bluelight a lot the next few days to a week or more as my body finally fully withdraws from the morphine, oxy, and possibly heroin. Although in my limited experience with H, I’ve never had any hard withdrawals from just one-off use of it here and there. Fingers crossed!

One day at a time, as the old but true cliché goes. I may journal my experience in this thread or a different one, depending on what’s more appropriate.

Hope to hear back from one of you on Kratom dosing and more about DXM. Thanks again!

??

 

[Jabberwocky]

Briefly, try 150mg of DXM HBr (get a formulation with ONLY DXM, nothing else as active ingredient - it's easy to find at most major pharmacy type places). If you're in full blown acute withdrawal you'll notice some relief at 150mg, but you'll probably get a lot more out of 300-350mg.

You have to be careful not to combine certain meds with DXM (for instance, avoid combining it with tramadol, and avoid MAOIs like the plague). Gabapentin isn't really a problem, but I'd still suggest you take DXM on its own to evaluate whether it will work for you. Long term and heavy use can cause problems, but for a short time or infrequent use shouldn't be a problem, especially if you stick to less than a third plateau dose.

I find listening to music and sitting somewhere where I have a pretty view to be especially delightful coming up on DXM. Be aware that DXM use will basically kill any and all social skills you might have and turn you into someone who might seem a little developmentally disabled (only under the influence though - this is kinda the nature of dissociatives across the board).

That is to say, I suggest you avoid social interaction for 6-8hrs minimum after taking DXM. It's more manageable on lower doses like 150mg, but even then it is hardly fun. Intellectual and analytical tasks can actually be painful to engage in when under the influence of DXM. It's a very present moment and emotional sort of drug experience.

If anything it gets you out of your head, which is exactly what some people need most trying to come off opioids. Even the simplest of tasks (like washing the dishes, preparing vegetables, etc) requires all of your attention. Again, this is precisely what a lot of people need kicking - to be forced to focus on something other than the fact they fell like shit from detoxing.

This is a great time to take care of yourself at home, go for a walk late at night (DXM doesn't help with the insomnia but it makes it far more manageable - it basically helps with all other symptoms), cook yourself some tasty, healthy and simple food for dinner (tastes and smells can be amazing on DXM), and spend some time watching a movie you love or simply listening to music you vibe with.

Try drinking some tasty tea, and really savor the aroma and flavor (although avoid caffeine until you know how it affects you with DXM, as DXM can potentiate it greatly).

Hang out with a cat, dog or other animal and attune to them. DXM is great for attunement (for better and worse; it's easier to attune with people who bring you down just as it is easier to attune with those who bring you up).

Hardstyle and dancing by yourself is sooooooo much fun when I have used DXM to get off opioids. Moon rock is also fun (AIR). Music is just delightful. Highly recommended

If you smoke you may notice you lose all cravings for cigarettes while under the influence of DXM. It's interesting.

DXM can potentiate other substances, so be careful to dose conservatively with any others meds until you know how DXM and those meds might interact.

More as promised later.

For now I'm going to picture you diss'ed out of your mind, dancing alone to funky music all by yourself, blissfully and gracefully recovering from detoxing. DXM can be pretty amazing in withdrawal if you don't mind the side effects like I mentioned. Whatever the opposite of suffering is, this is basically it

 

[simco]

I wanted to give a couple of pointers on using kratom in your situation.

First, with respect to dose, a good 'beginners dose' is often considered to be around 3 grams. Personally, my hunch is that this won't be enough to give you much relief...maybe 5-6 grams is more in the ballpark. Plenty of people go higher than that, but I strongly recommend starting low and finding what works for you. Keep in mind, taking too much kratom can be pretty unpleasant.

In general, but especially when finding a good dose, it's good to take kratom on an empty or near-empty stomach.

In terms of strains, as you're coming off opioids, a strong red variety is probably your best bet, insofar as its sedative properties will hopefully help with some of the WD-related anxiety. But if green or white is what you've got, that's likely to be fine too.

Many people find swallowing kratom powder to be unpleasant but easy enough to be worth it. In my case, all that plant matter is really tough on my guts, so I switched over to making tea. There are pros and cons to tea vs toss n wash etc., but for me the tea was a great solution (pun intended, ha ha ha).

Just for grins, here's how I make kratom tea...
1. Measure your kratom and dump it into an empty, small saucepan.
2. Squeeze about 1/4 lemon over the dry kratom powder (not strictly necessary but makes it taste way better and *may* help potentiate the kratom).
3. *slowly* pour about 1.5 cups of water over the dry kratom. No need to stir (it will get mixed during heating).
4. Put your stove on medium under the pot.
5. Let the mixture simmer for 15-20 mins.
6. Stir occasionally during the simmer. And at some point, add a splash more water to compensate for what evaporated.
7. Pour the kratom/water mixture through a strainer into a cup (squeeze the filtered kratom powder to extract as much water as you can) and enjoy.

Personally I use coffee filters to strain my kratom tea. But there's no science going on here...you can filter using pretty much whatever you want.

One last thing I feel compelled to say. Kratom does carry its own risks of dependency. It can be quite habit-forming in its own right, so do be careful to try to stay on top of it. But, the risk profile of kratom is so far lower than for full-blown opioids that I believe it can be a good harm reduction tool.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I also forgot to mention earlier that you probably shouldn’t take kratom and DXM together. Both substances can be hard on the body and together I imagine much more so than apart.

 

[harlemspikes]

TPD and Simco, thank you so very much for the tips and insights into Kratom and DXM. Today is day 2 of zero opiate consumption for the first time in almost six years, and I have to admit, I feel like garbage, even with the “comfort” meds and vitamins I’m taking: 800 mg Gabapentin 3x daily, phosphorus, magnesium, copper, iron, zinc, potassium, turmeric curcurmin (sp?) 3x a day, 750 mg l-tyrosine 3x a day, loperamide as needed, and 2 mg Xanax bars and/or extended release pills plus Klonopin, as needed as well (though I don’t mix the two benzos of Xanax and clonezepam—use the Xanax for short term, faster-acting relief, and the Klonopin for a longer half-life anti-anxiety remedy). The Gabapentin does seem to help the RLS a bit at night and give me a minor energy boost in the afternoon, but sleep has evaded me almost entirely for two nights. I also just got some high-quality smokable and edible marijuana sent from Colorado, which I may smoke or eat tonight to try to knock myself out.

However, right now I’m preparing some red vein Kratom tea, per your recipe. Tossing it back in powder form chased by water sounds like the Cinnamon Challenge, lol, and something I’d probably rather avoid.

Are you allowed on this site to reccomend a specific DXM cough medicine? I can run to the pharmacy and get some, but I won’t use it ‘til tomorrow. Thanks for letting me know you shouldn’t mix DXM and Kratom: That’s a question I had, along with proper dosing for someone with my very high opiate tolerance.

I really appreciate all of you guys’ help with this stuff. I know a lot about DOING drugs (obviously, but certainly not something I’m proud of), but not much about finally jumping off and beating them for good. I definitely don’t want another addiction to Kratom or DXM, so I will be careful to not take them for too long, and to alternate days taking them until I’m feeling stronger. I am not strong enough to exercise except for short walks with my dog, and even those are painful because everything hurts and I’m either freezing with goosebumps constantly, or burning up and wanting to crawl out of my skin. I normally run 3 miles several times a week and go to the gym to alternate cardio and strength training on the other days. So I’m usually pretty active, meaning this part of DTs really sucks. I feel pretty useless and embarrassed/down on myself that I allowed myself to get to this dismal place, but I can only go forward, you know?

In terms of food, it’s really hard to eat anything, but I somehow still feel and look really bloated. I’m going to force down some chicken soup with lemon juice tonight, and eat some fresh green vegetables. I don’t have the runs yet, which is good I guess. I do feel like someone beat the shi*t out of me with a metal bat on every part of my body. Plus, not to give TMI, lol, I have my period on top of everything, and I ALWAYS get debilitating cramps and nausea during my monthly “eomen’s Curse” (ha ha ha, eyeroll), so that’s all exacerbated. I’m going to take a hot bath tonight, which I heard helps with all of the above.

I can write more later but I’m going to fix my Kratom tea now. Hope it works! Fingers crossed. Thank you again from this recovering addict in NYC! I really just can’t thank you all enough. I feel so much more comforted knowing others have successfully made it through this, and being told about helper meds and supplements. The support means a lot, as I can’t really talk to my loved ones because they don’t understand at all. Hope to hear from you soon—the time the two of you have taken to write to me is so generous and amazing of you! Positive energy and gratitude sent both of your ways (sounds corny I know, but I’m not a “prayer” since I’m a “heathen” agnostic, lol)! Xoxoxo

 

[harlemspikes]

Also, TPD, I am a musician by night (singer, guitar, piano) and magazine writer/editor by day and for pay—music, reading books and writing are my life! I have been singing on a karaoke app I’m obsessed with to alleviate boredom and stress, and I listen to music and read constantly. I also am keeping a journal of this experience to review what works and what doesn’t, and if it does work, how much of it I took, at what time, etc. So that is a good tip, also, and one with which I’m VERY happy and willing to indulge! Also binge watching some good series on Netflix, lol. You’re so right that having other things to focus on besides the physical hell of detox is crucial.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's a little old, but this might help: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-99514-p-3.html

Basically you just need to visit various pharmacies until you find a cough medicine that only has DXM in it. I faaaar preferred the generic brands to name brand, because the name brands tend to have thickeners that make consuming the syrup beyond disgusting. All DXM syrups taste pretty foul (well, with the exception of something like Delsym/DXM polistirex, but you're trying to find DXM HBr, not polistirex), but the less thick generic brands are a lot easier to consume.

You just needs to be careful about reading labels. You only want something with DXM under the list of activity ingredients, not anything else. Anything with just DXM and no other actives will work fine for you.

I'm a little confused though. I thought you were detoxing from opioids, but you mentioned DTs. Delirium tremons only happens with stuff like alcohol. Are you kicking alcohol too? In that case you'd need to be even more careful using stuff like DXM and kratom (and for sure the DXM won't really help detoxing from alcohol).

Given some of the interests you have mentioned, have you ever tried to learn how to meditate or do anything with mindful movement/yoga? I think it would be right up your alley. Learning can make getting sober remarkably more manageable.

With exercise and diet, basically just try to get what you can without pushing yourself so much you ended up more stressed. So eat what you can when you can - as the withdrawal wears off it will get easier. Just be clear with yourself when you're unable to really eat and you feel super shitty, some of that discomfort is related to not eating enough. Likewise, with exercise, if running is too much right now, just spend more time going out for longish walks. An hour in the AM and later in the PM is really helpful when city. Even this time of year in NYC when it's getting a little chilly, getting outside is so important to maintaining a positive attitude during detoxing.

I feel like I'm forgetting something with this post though... Is there any other feedback or questions you're interested?

Overall it sounds like you're doing great. Try and do whatever whenever you can to be just a little kinder and gentler with yourself right now. You certainly deserve it, and this is absolutely the right time to explore what it means to be truly kind with yourself. A significant part of your recovery is going to revolve around what it means to really love yourself, and exploring ways to treat your body as the temple it is.

 

[harlemspikes]

Hi TPD! Thanks again for replying. No, I didn’t mean detoxing from alcohol. I meant withdrawal, LOL. In my ignorance, I thought DTs meant “detoxing.” I don’t have issues with alcohol: Other than in my college years, I drink only socially, and generally in moderation. Has never been an issue for me like opiates have, although while we’re on the subject, would getting a mild buzz from alcohol help me feel any better, assuming I stay hydrated and don’t make it a habit? I do find Cannabis (smokable and edible) helps temporarily. And I don’t consider that a real “drug,” per se. I’ve never known anyone to go beat their wife or lose their job or OD because of weed! I’m all for legalization, even though I’m a light user. Just my opinion, though. The Xanax seems to help the most, more than the clonezepam. I’m not sure what, if anything, the gabapentin is doing, and I don’t have access to Clonidine. I’m continuing to take recommended vitamins and minerals. Eating is tough but I’m trying! I just seem to have an INSANE tolerance for everything!!! It’s frustrating.

I’m definitely going to go hunt for some generic DXM syrup, as the Kratom strains I’ve taken (tried 6 g in the tea recipe you gave me on three separate days each of red, white, and green veins) didn’t seem to do amytbing, really, and while I didn’t experience any stomach issues or other adverse effects, what Kratom is supposedly to do has, thus far, eluded me. What is it supposed to feel like? Maybe I need to get the Bali kind and if so, should I try a higher dose? My other question about DXM is basically, since you said it’s a dissociative, what should I expect to feel? I mean, is it something I could function on, or will I need to hole up for the day? I’m lucky that I have some time to work from home and relax while doing this. Which is actually why I chose this juncture in time to jump off Subs: I can chill at home in my pajama-clad misery for awhile with few interruptions or serious out-of-apartment obligations, and I’m not sure when I’ll have that opportunity again.

I’m a little surprised at how incredibly sh*tty I still feel: chills, sweats, heinous body aches, sneezing, RLS, severe depression and malaise (crying, hopelessness, social anxiety, feelings of low self worth and anger at myself for getting into this mess and becoming a “junkie,” etc.). I also haven’t slept more than an hour a night in days, so I’m feeling really cracked out. I’m wondering if I have a flu or bad cold on top of this. I did walk and play with my dog in the snow for a bit today, which was fun, but otherwise can’t exercise much without feeling like I’m going to keel over, haha. I’ve tried to play some guitar and do some recording, but I sound like sh*t right now. Once I’m a little better I’m going to go to my gym and swim in the pool or go in the hot tub. Is it normal for withdrawal to take this long? And if I take half a 30mg XR Morphine pill, will that just start the process all over again?

It’s funny you mentioned yoga and meditation, as I was trying to get into a Transcendental Meditation class prior to all this. I’m very interested in those types of Eastern practices and philosophies. I will try meditating in the mornings to start. It has helped me in the past.

Thank you you a million times over for your help and support. I’m reading your replies like the Bible (if I read the bible, that is), haha.

 

[ElleAZ]

biggarard123 Have you tried Kratom before? I never even knew it existed until recently through perusing Bluelight forums. Sounds interesting but I also hear you can experience withdrawals from Kratom itself. I bought a small amount of three different veins: red, white and green. It’s supposed to arrive tomorrow. Little apprehensive about it!

I’ve never tried Kratom. I did read on another site that a man mixed it with something like coconut oil until it was a tight little ball and then he would just pop in the back of his throat and swallow like a pill .

I’m nervous for you. I wish your sweetheart knew. I’d like to think there was someone looking out for you. This is tough and you’re doing it on your own, but people who love you will love you through this. Please be gentle with yourself .

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hi TPD! Thanks again for replying. No, I didn’t mean detoxing from alcohol. I meant withdrawal, LOL. In my ignorance, I thought DTs meant “detoxing.” I don’t have issues with alcohol: Other than in my college years, I drink only socially, and generally in moderation. Has never been an issue for me like opiates have, although while we’re on the subject, would getting a mild buzz from alcohol help me feel any better, assuming I stay hydrated and don’t make it a habit? I do find Cannabis (smokable and edible) helps temporarily. And I don’t consider that a real “drug,” per se. I’ve never known anyone to go beat their wife or lose their job or OD because of weed! I’m all for legalization, even though I’m a light user. Just my opinion, though. The Xanax seems to help the most, more than the clonezepam. I’m not sure what, if anything, the gabapentin is doing, and I don’t have access to Clonidine. I’m continuing to take recommended vitamins and minerals. Eating is tough but I’m trying! I just seem to have an INSANE tolerance for everything!!! It’s frustrating.

I’m definitely going to go hunt for some generic DXM syrup, as the Kratom strains I’ve taken (tried 6 g in the tea recipe you gave me on three separate days each of red, white, and green veins) didn’t seem to do amytbing, really, and while I didn’t experience any stomach issues or other adverse effects, what Kratom is supposedly to do has, thus far, eluded me. What is it supposed to feel like? Maybe I need to get the Bali kind and if so, should I try a higher dose? My other question about DXM is basically, since you said it’s a dissociative, what should I expect to feel? I mean, is it something I could function on, or will I need to hole up for the day? I’m lucky that I have some time to work from home and relax while doing this. Which is actually why I chose this juncture in time to jump off Subs: I can chill at home in my pajama-clad misery for awhile with few interruptions or serious out-of-apartment obligations, and I’m not sure when I’ll have that opportunity again.

I’m a little surprised at how incredibly sh*tty I still feel: chills, sweats, heinous body aches, sneezing, RLS, severe depression and malaise (crying, hopelessness, social anxiety, feelings of low self worth and anger at myself for getting into this mess and becoming a “junkie,” etc.). I also haven’t slept more than an hour a night in days, so I’m feeling really cracked out. I’m wondering if I have a flu or bad cold on top of this. I did walk and play with my dog in the snow for a bit today, which was fun, but otherwise can’t exercise much without feeling like I’m going to keel over, haha. I’ve tried to play some guitar and do some recording, but I sound like sh*t right now. Once I’m a little better I’m going to go to my gym and swim in the pool or go in the hot tub. Is it normal for withdrawal to take this long? And if I take half a 30mg XR Morphine pill, will that just start the process all over again?

It’s funny you mentioned yoga and meditation, as I was trying to get into a Transcendental Meditation class prior to all this. I’m very interested in those types of Eastern practices and philosophies. I will try meditating in the mornings to start. It has helped me in the past.

Thank you you a million times over for your help and support. I’m reading your replies like the Bible (if I read the bible, that is), haha.

First off, if you're interested in meditation find yourself a Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction training class and try that. I find transcendental meditation to be very limited to the metta-vipassana in MBSR. Moving on...

If you take some of that morphine you have left, not it won't set you back to the beginning again.

How much gabapentin are you taking? Often it's prescribed at 300mg two to three times a day, but when used for detoxing I'd need a minimum of 800mg four times a day (and normally I'd take like 4000mg twice a day - it's a very safe and forgiving med compared to things like benzos or opioids).

With the DXM, at least while you're peaking (so end of hour 1 to end of hour 6-7), unless you're an artist and paint for a living or something, don't expect to be capable of doing anything productive for work while under the influence. If you take DXM basically you should plan to spend most of your day inside away from other people. It might not be obvious your high if you're able to hold your shit together, it's just much safer and less stressful not having to deal with socials situations where you are the focal point.

You won't be very functional if you take DXM until it wears off. The high the dose the more this is true. With a dose of 150mg you could probably function in most ways like normal, but above that things get progressively dissociated/weird.

6g of kratom should have been enough to help *a little* bit, so perhaps you didn't make the tea right? I always hated kratom tea cause I always have had much better effects (stronger and longer acting) from mixing the kratom powder in water and chug that grainy nastiness down or put the kratom power in gel caps and swallow those (though it would take you quite a few capsules to get enough kratom in you).

The closest thing about the kratom experience I can compare it to is like tramadol. But since you're in withdrawal, likely all it will do is keep some of your withdrawal away.

 

[harlemspikes]

TPD, gotcha on the Kratom. I’ll try toss and wash. How many mg of DXM do you think I should I take? I’m probably trying it tomorrow morning. I sent you a PM also. Thanks for your help!