Hello. I'm starting to feel a little desperate and I'm on here hoping to get answers regarding other's experience in this matter. I have Been on suboxone since October of last year and I'm currently down to 4 mg a day. My dr lost his license last week and is no longer taking patients. I've been 3 days without and want to crawl into a hole a die. I made an appt with my family dr for this afternoon. I've read that any dr can prescribe subs for pain but not detox. I want to be brutally honest with her hoping she will sympathize with me and write a script for a couple weeks worth so I can taper the correct way instead of jumping at 4 mg. I've called every sub dr in a 50 mile radius and everyone of them has a lengthy waiting list to get into their program. I've missed 2 days of work so far and can see myself going in anytime soon feeling this way. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0
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I came here to find something similar. I did h IV yesterday morning about 10am, then again about 12:30 both times about .05g. Around 3 I sniffed maybe 1/8-1/6 of a zubsolv [5.7mg] and my mild symptoms were gone, but I didn't get any of the feeling I used to get from bupe, so I did a little more 1-2 hrs later. Same thing today, I wasn't ill when I woke up, sniffed the same amount. I feel very low, drained of energy and a little achey. I want to IV a little bit which I've never tried before but I don't know how long to wait in order to avoid the precipitated wd
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fullycaffeinated
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You should be fine, about 12-24 hrs after heroin is average, however the idea is that you want to be in moderate wd. Google the COWS sheet (sorry, on my iPhone or I'd link it) which will score your wd symptoms. You should be over a 20 or so before you take bupe after a full agonist to avoid precipitated wds, which are hell x10 if you don't already know.
I have heard that you can dissolve the strips in alcohol and powder from Benadryl or whatever you choose , then evaporate the alcohol to have a bupe powder. Never done it, as I use a nasal spray which I detailed a few pages back. When I get home, I can try to find the link about the alcohol method and add it to this post though, or you can try searching with those keywords in the meantime (dissolve suboxone strip in alcohol for powder)
Your dr may or may not be comfortable scripting suboxone for pain, I have heard of it but it's not likely. I've been in a similar situation before. I travel 2 hours each way to my dr because that's the closest one without a huge list. If that's an option for you, look into places further away. If not, short of finding suboxone on the street , the best answers I have are these :
1. Look into buying Kratom online for wd (Google/search on here if you're unsure what that is - it's a plant w opiate alkaloids)
2. Go to dr/street to get comfort meds - clonidine (BP med that helps wd), a benzo for sleep (careful -addictive), Neurontin (gabapentin) is a seizure/nerve pain med good for wd.
3. Loperamide (Imodium) available OTC in the US - diarrhea med that is an opiate that does not reach the BBB. Look up more info on bl, it works GREAT for some of us, relieving 90% of symptoms.
4. Tramadol if you can get it, is a synthetic SNRI that slightly agonizes the mu receptor and can help.
5. If you are in a country w legal codeine, definitely get that and CWE it if necessary.
Feel free to ask questions, had to keep it short since I'm on my phone.
You can get precipitated wds with bupe even sublingual. It us the buprenorphine itself that causes PWDs, not injecting the naloxone. I'm surprised you did not get PWDs doing what you already did, but if you're sure you did not, you should be good to go to IV. I would start very low just in case and build up from there, this is always a good idea when using bupe with any ROA after a full agonist.
Edit - just noticed you say you've never IVed before. If you choose to IV bupe, which I would not recommend, as the potential risks and short duration outweigh the very minimal benefits... PLEASE use a micron filter if at all possible. There is a micron filer thread by Captain.Heroin that you can search on here.
If you are planning to IV bupe WITHOUT a micron filter I would highly recommend that you reconsider. If you have poor IV technique I would also reconsider. Plugging bupe can give you what you're looking for without IVing. You can also use it nasally, even in strip form by waterlining, nasal spray, or some people even have had success chopping the strip up really small and snorting that. You will not get a rush shooting bupe with a tolerance. The onset is not instant, but 5-10 min. If you still want to IV bupe without a micron after this hopefully Trainspotter will come on and give you good advice, as I don't IV, but I would filter as much as possible.
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Smoky
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I think that's why I had a slight overdose when I relapsed, to those who mention using both. I took a few buprenex (3 weeks ago), so I wouldn't use Heroin, then relapsed on the Heroin on top of that. The subs are strong, I just couldn't tell cos I didn't feel high. I started shaking ... felt a seizure coming on and vomited... Was very cold, almost called 911 but it subsided in and hour, then I was really high.
And here I am now trying to quit... starting withdrawal today. And no worries confusing me with someone else... I appreciate all your help. If I didn't post yesterday for help I would be in precipitated withdrawal now. Sometimes, I almost wish that on myself so I could get this moving along and over with, lol.
)
And here I am now trying to quit... starting withdrawal today. And no worries confusing me with someone else... I appreciate all your help. If I didn't post yesterday for help I would be in precipitated withdrawal now. Sometimes, I almost wish that on myself so I could get this moving along and over with, lol.
)
The Doc.
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So you had a script of Suboxone then your doctor lost his licence causing you to have no way of getting your meds? Here in Canada you can't get bupe from any doctor whether its for pain or addiction unless they have a licence to prescribe methadone but if your doctor can't see you anymore they always make sure the patient gets set up with another doctor or the doctor would at least phone the pharmacy and make sure their patient will be able to get their meds still until a new doc is found but what happened to you is very irresponsible for the doctor to have done that would never happen here. Or if you went to the hospital here where I live and say what happened they will usually prescribe you either sub's/.methadone or another opiate so you are not sick they will do this for sure if they see on the computer you have been prescribed the drug already. I don't know where you live though so can't say what you could do for sure besides try and buy some on the streets if you can't find anymore doctors around where you live.
You could also stock up on OTC meds to make the detox a little easier on you drugs such as imodiom help quite a bit most times depending on what soxehabit you have.
fullycaffeinated
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To elaborate (thank you trainspotter for reminding me...), here in the US, any doctor can prescribe suboxone for addiction for up to three days if you have suddenly lost your provider and cannot find a new one. Perhaps you could get the three days' worth and taper. You may have trouble finding a dr willing to do this, but be persuasive! Google this, and find a legitimate website stating this policy, and print it out and bring it with you! I will look for a link when I get home (I am STILL at urgent care, been here like all damn day waiting to see a dr about the sleep/anxiety issues I have been having).
*edit - I GOT IT!!! Very official statement on NAABT website. I might be able to make it a clickable link on my phone but here it is...
http://www.naabt.org/documents/three-day-rule.pdf
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The Doc.
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I think that's why I had a slight overdose when I relapsed, to those who mention using both. I took a few buprenex (3 weeks ago), so I wouldn't use Heroin, then relapsed on the Heroin on top of that. The subs are strong, I just couldn't tell cos I didn't feel high. I started shaking ... felt a seizure coming on and vomited... Was very cold, almost called 911 but it subsided in and hour, then I was really high.
And here I am now trying to quit... starting withdrawal today. And no worries confusing me with someone else... I appreciate all your help. If I didn't post yesterday for help I would be in precipitated withdrawal now. Sometimes, I almost wish that on myself so I could get this moving along and over with, lol.
That sounds like a case of precipitated withdrawal to tell you the truth. But it shouldn't happen if you took the sub BEFORE you did heroin so that's weird. Could've been a slight OD but sure sounds exactly like PWDs.
Smoky
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Yes - I was so confused, wasn't sure if I was withdrawing 'still' or overdosing, but my system was completely clear of opiates for almost 3-4 weeks. I was out of the woods mostly physically... just still having insomnia and extreme lethargy, anxiety.
When it happened, I realized my usual pain was absent, and I have chronic degenerative discs/stenosis in neck down my arm. That's why I figured it was close to overdose (or at least too much in my system), verses withdrawals. The vomiting was different too, it came out of nowhere, was not continuous like withdrawals... Then it was over within an hour or so... Then I continued to use til yesterday... VEry sick now, it will get worse.. But I have meds..
When it happened, I realized my usual pain was absent, and I have chronic degenerative discs/stenosis in neck down my arm. That's why I figured it was close to overdose (or at least too much in my system), verses withdrawals. The vomiting was different too, it came out of nowhere, was not continuous like withdrawals... Then it was over within an hour or so... Then I continued to use til yesterday... VEry sick now, it will get worse.. But I have meds..
The Doc.
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You have good advice for someone who doesn't IV everything you said sounds right to me.
But when injecting the bupe you need to wait a lot longer to avoid PWDs, for instance you may be able to use bupe 4 hours after your last hit of dope with no problems if you took the bupe sublingually but if you did the same thing except instead of sublingual you injected the bupe you will most likely be thrown into PWDs . The reason being is because bupe when injected instead of being spread out over a long period it hits you in one big wave and wears off quicker. This can cause horrible PWDs which is why I always advise people not to inject bupe when they are inducting from heroin, IV buprenorphine should only one used when you are clean from all opiates for a few days at least or when you are stable on bupe already.
Another reason the IV buprenorphine can cause worse PWDs is because lots of buprenorphine products contain naloxone a opiate antagonist which is basically inactive sublingually/orally but when injected it does get activated even though it won't affect the buprenorphine on the receptors from working it will add to PWDs and make them more intense if you have heroin on the receptors when you IV the buprenorphine/naloxone combo. Fully caf is right when she says the bupe causes the PWDs but activating a opioid antagonist with it too certainly doesn't help the situation so don't IV until your stable on sub. The same goes for snortng bupe its not a good idea to snort your first pill/film when transitioning over from heroin to bupe even if you have gotten away with it in the past. Start small and take your bupe sublingually the bigger the dose you start with the more chance you have of going into precipitated withdrawals so keep it to 1mg or so then once stable on that increase your dose accordingly as needed.
fullycaffeinated
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Thx dude
yeah I knew bupe was more likely to cause PWDs IV, and I knew the naloxone could also cause PWDs on top of that, I just figured he had already taken bupe sublingually and had it on his receptors he'd be outta the water. I didn't realize he'd need to be on bupe for a few days. Thx for clearing that up, as I said, I don't use IV bupe, so I figured you'd hop on and give him better advice than I could. (I've actually never shot up at all. I know that seems crazy but I was finding money and lots of it when I was addicted. Not proud of it, I'm lucky I never got arrested for embezzlement... I also have done other shady shit... Like stripped for dope. Just bc I haven't shot up doesn't mean I don't have my own skeletons... I'll leave it at that).
The Doc.
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Oh that's a weird rule if you think about it what does the doctor do after 3 days and no new suboxone doctor has been found? They just go oh sorry no you have to go through withdrawal im only allowed to help you for 72 hours so too bad your out out of luck now that the time is up. I don't know why they can't do it until a new doctor is found but it seems they are pretty strict in enforcing the 72 hour rule when they say it cannot be renewed or extended.
Might help a person outi guess but I don't see the point if the person is just gonna have to detox cold turkey after the 3 days they should make a taper plan or something at least to think long term.
fullycaffeinated
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Yeah... I totally agree... but it's better than nothing, like I said maybe they could use the three days worth for a fast taper.
The Doc.
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It says they cant take any home they have to take in front of the doctor because the doctor can't prescribe it, only give it to the patient in the office so I don't know how it would work if you tell the doc to lower your dose each day or something or if they just make you take your while dose.
fullycaffeinated
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Shit I think I actually remember that now.... but I had forgotten :/ I guess it would really only be good to give you three days to find someone else then. Unless you found a really cool doc but I don't see that happening. Honestly I have heard peoples' stories about getting their primary doc to take the course and all that to become their bupe provider... Where do people find these docs?! I truly sympathize with the OP... Took me three months to find my doc... And as you know, it's two hours away!! I'm just lucky it's in my hometown/where my parents still live!
Myxomatosis
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Does anyone have experience using H a couple of hours after taking roughly .2-.25mg of suboxone? I've read a lot of people's experiences in using H on suboxone but can't seem to find any from people who have used it within hours of ingesting bupe (and a low dose of bupe like that).
I know what to expect I am just looking for more anecdotes to sway my decision one way or the other.
I know what to expect I am just looking for more anecdotes to sway my decision one way or the other.
The Doc.
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It shouldn't block much at all if any I've done it many times. There's are studies that show low doses of buphernorphine (under 2mg ) have little to no blocking effects when a user takes another opiate on top. I found to really notice any blocking happening I needed to be at about 4mgs a day sublingual and 1-2 mgs if i IV the buprenorphine.
fullycaffeinated
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Completely agree with train once again. If you go a page back there is a post I wrote which basically concludes that I took the same amt of oxycodone twice, once after abstaining from sub for about 40 hrs, the second time on my daily dose of. .5, and no blocking occurred.
As I said in that post, if you are on sub for maintenance and in recovery, I would recommend against doing this, as once you know you can do it, it is hard not to. But there is no/minimal blocking effect or risk of OD at these lower doses of bupe.
Myxomatosis
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I'm not on sub for maintenance or in recovery, it just so happens to be what I have been taking daily while I'm in this state of purgatory having not made any true attempt at life without opiates/opioids. I've managed to get onto a .25mg daily dose (maybe even a bit lower) administered by way of insufflation..doing the majority in my initial dose in the morning and then a very small re-dose 8 hours later or so in the day. This is in addition to using tramadol daily at amounts around 300-350mg (also being the overall sum of my 2 daily doses).
I went ahead and did the H about 2 & 1/2 hours after initially doing my sub. I can definitely say it doesn't seem to have had a diminishing effect on the H. Although I have not done any opiates on their own (separate from bupe) in almost 2 years so it's hard to say whether or not it has lessened the effects. But I can wholeheartedly say that I am pleasantly surprised by the outcome.
And yes, I would most definitely agree that this could be a potentially devastating realization for those who are on bupe for maintenance with the intent of staying away from opiates in the future. & I would never suggest for someone in such a position to indulge in this activity.
I went ahead and did the H about 2 & 1/2 hours after initially doing my sub. I can definitely say it doesn't seem to have had a diminishing effect on the H. Although I have not done any opiates on their own (separate from bupe) in almost 2 years so it's hard to say whether or not it has lessened the effects. But I can wholeheartedly say that I am pleasantly surprised by the outcome.
And yes, I would most definitely agree that this could be a potentially devastating realization for those who are on bupe for maintenance with the intent of staying away from opiates in the future. & I would never suggest for someone in such a position to indulge in this activity.
Eveleivibe
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I'm so frustrated with myself... I got down to 4 mg for a few days and then somehow talked myself back into going up to 8 mg, been taking 8 mg for the past three days but life sucks. Everything sucks. I feel extremely empty, have felt so for so long it's unreal.... but I went to 4 mg suboxone and then convinced myself that taken it was much better; music wasn't so intense, I was more confident with people etc.... What the hell have I gone and done? Will I always feel so empty or will this leave me once I'm off this.... I don't know what to think or feel anymore about this drug; I feel like there's two people battling inside me.... one for suboxone the other against it and there's no way of winning. I really don't know what to do anymore...
Evey
Evey
The Doc.
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I'm so frustrated with myself... I got down to 4 mg for a few days and then somehow talked myself back into going up to 8 mg, been taking 8 mg for the past three days but life sucks. Everything sucks. I feel extremely empty, have felt so for so long it's unreal.... but I went to 4 mg suboxone and then convinced myself that taken it was much better; music wasn't so intense, I was more confident with people etc.... What the hell have I gone and done? Will I always feel so empty or will this leave me once I'm off this.... I don't know what to think or feel anymore about this drug; I feel like there's two people battling inside me.... one for suboxone the other against it and there's no way of winning. I really don't know what to do anymore...
Evey
Hey eve youll be okay take it one day at a time you'll be back to your old self soon enough okay?
Just think back to how short acting opiates made you feel day in and day out. I'm not quite sure what you meant do you mean you went back up to 8mgs because you feel so low? It could have been the sudden drop in medicine, the fact that you feel guilty for screwing up your taper or you could just be depressed but I would bet the medication dropping so fast played a big part in how you feel. It takes time I mean it took me 5months to get from 8mgs to 2mgs and now I'm happy I lowered my dose I feel better than ever actually. Take it slow when I read how fast you were dropping the other day I didn't think it would end good your body needs time to adjust so you don't feel this way. May I ask why you want to get off it so fast all of a sudden? When you've taken a drug like buprenorphine for as long as you have your not gonna be able to stop it overnight I'm afraid that's just the way the cookie crumbles evey. You'll be fine if you relax a little and just tell yourself one day I'll beat you for good opiates, but you don't have to stress yourself out so much it doesn't help you any
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