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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v16.0

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Not that I want to get into this much but..

Outside of the runny nose and aches (maybe a few other similarities) withdrawal and the flu are not very similar. For instance, last time I had the flu I slept for the majority of the 2 days it lasted, last time I was in severe WD I was lucky to sleep more than an hour or so per day. Flu makes you feel a bit down but not in the near panic state that WD can cause. Also, you have that weird libido rebound in WD, which is prob the opposite of what happens with the flu.

But yes the flu can be very dangerous to unhealthy individuals/people with a weak immune system.


I think that just goes to show how out of touch most sub Drs/drug counselors are...if they think WD is similar to the flu.
Yep...I agree wholeheartedly Kerrr, I've never wanted to blow my brains out during the flu...but I sure have in opiate WD.
 
Another aspect of opiate/opioid use/dependance/addiction that is not mentioned much, is the users preoccupation with how they feel and should feel.

IMO, this drives me nuts. I've been on opioids for so long I have no way of remembering what normal felt like.

No kidding, at times its weird to think about. Either being on some type of opiate or in withdrawal is all there is. Though I would say that opiates don't have such a drastic effect on mental status to think you are much off normal when under a maintenance dose of Subs. The most drastic difference is the Subs act as a good antidepressant.
 
your mom sniffed your sub? wow. ha.

all I can say bros.. I gave up on what others are saying, doing, know, etc. just doesnt make sense a lot of the time to me. I take subox classes in order to stay on subox for so cheap and for so long and what I hear coming from doctors and other users, are the opposite of what I hear in this forum.

put it this way.. if you have insurance, and you have the ability to get the subox for <no price discussion> /mo for WHATEVER dose, then by all mean get that dosage and figure it out yourself. start high, see how you feel. you dont feel good? OK, go lower. and then lower and lower and lower. do whatever you want but NEVER LIMIT YOURSELF by saying you read about low dosage, blah blah. MAX THE FCK OUT and if you truly want to quit use what you have in order to put yourself in the best shape possible to move on and get well.

wish you all nothing but the best.

I'm just wondering why you think it's better to start at the max dose and then cut down if you think it's too much. Wouldn't it be better to do it the other way around? I would think that it would be better to start out at a moderate dose (the doctor at the outpatient facility by me starts everyone out at 8mg for examply) and if that's not working enough for you then you can speak to your doctor about increasing the dose. But if 8mg is just as effective as 24mg to someone, and the doctor is going to start tapering you off after 6 months or so, then it's a lot easier to taper off of 8mg then it is from 24mg, and I would think that you would have a better chance of staying off of the suboxone after tapering down from 8mg since your brain would be used to having less in it, so it wouldn't be as much of shock to your system coming off of 8mg compared to 24.

It's also going to depend on a persons habit. Some people get on suboxone for oxycodone addictions of like 60mg/day, and so some doctors start them on 4mg which may or may not be enough for them to kill their cravings, but shouldn't they give the 4mg a shot first before upping the dose? Of course the goal of suboxone maintenance is to help with cravings so that you relapse, but another important part of it is to keep you from going back to your DOC after tapering off of the suboxone, and I think that everyone would agree that coming off of a lower dose is easier than coming off of a higher one.

I don't think that anyone is disagreeing with the fact that higher doses are necessary for some people, but personally I think that they should see the lowest amount they can take that will prevent them from relapsing. If they are still having big cravings on these lower doses and relapse due to that, then by all means discuss this with your doctor and get the dose increased, but if it aint broke then don't fix it.

When people say that 'less is more' they are not saying that a person should keep trying to maintain on a lower dose if it isn't working for them. What they are saying is to see how that lower dose works for them, and if it's insufficient then go for the higher dose. I think that's where some misunderstandings are happening between you and some other members. I would just hate to see someone have to go through some unnecessarily harsh withdrawals if they can be avoided, as I went through them and it made me worse off after being on subs than I was before I was on them.
 
I hear ya, man. but I almost think its best to start HIGH and lower the dosage based on your feelings from there.

here's how I see it. we are all addicts, and if you give us ANY REASON to use, we will run w/ that and say "sorry, that 2MG didnt work so I had to use dope". but if we put these patients on a higher MG to start, such as 8MG like you said, then we can work from there and they can feel the subox the way they should.

I totally understand everyone has a different opiate problem; from 5MG's perc's to bundles and bundles of dope; but recovery for us all is the same; we want to get away from the drug. I THANK GOD daily for giving me the chance to meet my Dr. in my OPEN CLINIC (not a private Dr.) and be able to get through this recovery and stay away from the dope and have the subox make me happy as can be (12 or 16MG in AM ONLY).

I am NOT TRYING TO BOSS PEOPLE AROUND.. I am just talking how I see it. We all have out different opinions, no doubt. and we are all drug superstars, no doubt. but in my experience and how I have helped friends thus far, it's been starting on the higher dosage and working down. it worked wonders for me, but I am not like he rest and can totally understand that.
 
I'll do some research on this. Quite interesting. I hardly get cilds / flu since being on suboxone but, and this may be related to exercising, I wake up lately with my back incredibly stiff. It's quite painful trying to move n get myself out of the bed. I went for a massage today hoping somehow that it would give me relief. The lady doing my massage said I've go great toned, calves which people spend ages training for - was a lovely compliment.

Anyway back to suboxone - I'll do some research end of this week when I've finished work on my assignment. See what I can.

Evey :)
 
I've been updating my progress through this sub taper program.

They require me to come in at least every 3-5 days. Now at 2 mg today being the second day at 2, I think I can do the rest on my own. They gave me 2 mg for tomorrow and 1 mg for Wednesday. I have approx 20 mg sub my self. I think I can keep going on this plan with what I have. Why drive 20 miles to do what I can do on my own.They got me this far. Next week I have a visit to discuss naltrexone. I have made up my mind that I don't want opiates anymore and have no desire to ever have any again. Should I still take the naltrexone? Any ideas on that?

Opinions on that? MR. S? or anyone that has some real insight on the matter.

I plan to follow the same schedule. I will finish the week with 1 mg ( Friday) Saturday skip a day and Sunday take 1 mg. Depending on how I feel skip Monday and tues take .5 mg and skip and then .5mg.

Thats where I'll jump off. I don't feel the drop to 2 mg and I'm almost certain I could just stop. How bad would the Wd's be now compared to if I wait to the .5mg time? Will stopping now make me bed ridden and very sick?

Thanks for the support you guys especially MR.S who has solid knowledge about all of this stuff and even after years of hearing the same stuff still comes here to help when he can.Kudos to you.
 
^I would go as low as you can...Under 2mgs is where it really gets tough...2mgs is a lot..

I would drop to .5 and stay on that until you're really adjusted and then jump from there, or even down to .25, but that's tough to measure out...

Naltrexone makes some people feel uncomfortable and weird, some people do well with it...I personally don't like it, but it works for some people..
 
^I would go as low as you can...Under 2mgs is where it really gets tough...2mgs is a lot..

I would drop to .5 and stay on that until you're really adjusted and then jump from there, or even down to .25, but that's tough to measure out...

Naltrexone makes some people feel uncomfortable and weird, some people do well with it...I personally don't like it, but it works for some people..


I have to agree...
2mg is still a hefty dose..getting as low as possible seems to help.
I jumped at .25 and it still sucked...mostly weakness, depression and sleeplessness for a few weeks.
 
^I would go as low as you can...Under 2mgs is where it really gets tough...2mgs is a lot..

I would drop to .5 and stay on that until you're really adjusted and then jump from there, or even down to .25, but that's tough to measure out...

Naltrexone makes some people feel uncomfortable and weird, some people do well with it...I personally don't like it, but it works for some people..

I have to agree...
2mg is still a hefty dose..getting as low as possible seems to help.
I jumped at .25 and it still sucked...mostly weakness, depression and sleeplessness for a few weeks.

Wow, I just can't understand 2mg being a hefty dose. It only equates to something like 40 mg oxy. I could kick a 40 mg oxy habit in my sleep. lol I did kick 90 mg a day thing on my own. ( That was no walk in the park, but I did it)

So is 2 mg like quitting from 40mg oxy? Or is it totally different? Would it be hell or bearable?

Can someone tell me how to cut strips into 1 mg and .5 mg? how the heck could you cut .25? They have been giving me the tablet form, but I have some strips. I assume that from this point that 20 mg of sub will be enough for me to taper to where I need to be.

I'm going to just go to 1 mg tomorrow and hold that for 2-3 days and see how I feel. I want this to be done and as easy on me as possible.

Is the every other day method a good plan?
 
^Its the Bupe's long half life that makes it much more difficult. Instead of being sick for 4-5 days from an oxycodone withdrawal you will be sick for 2-3 weeks. Its really hard to compare the severity of withdrawal from X mg of Bupe/day to Y mg of oxycodone/day. because of the drastic half life difference of the 2 meds.

I've cold turkeyed that much oxy and more, too. I do not think I could cold turkey off 2 mg of bupe, but honestly I wouldn't even try because I don't have weeks of my life to throw away, nor do I have the desire to go through that ordeal.
 
I've been updating my progress through this sub taper program.

They require me to come in at least every 3-5 days. Now at 2 mg today being the second day at 2, I think I can do the rest on my own. They gave me 2 mg for tomorrow and 1 mg for Wednesday. I have approx 20 mg sub my self. I think I can keep going on this plan with what I have. Why drive 20 miles to do what I can do on my own.They got me this far. Next week I have a visit to discuss naltrexone. I have made up my mind that I don't want opiates anymore and have no desire to ever have any again. Should I still take the naltrexone? Any ideas on that?

Opinions on that? MR. S? or anyone that has some real insight on the matter.

I plan to follow the same schedule. I will finish the week with 1 mg ( Friday) Saturday skip a day and Sunday take 1 mg. Depending on how I feel skip Monday and tues take .5 mg and skip and then .5mg.

Thats where I'll jump off. I don't feel the drop to 2 mg and I'm almost certain I could just stop. How bad would the Wd's be now compared to if I wait to the .5mg time? Will stopping now make me bed ridden and very sick?

Thanks for the support you guys especially MR.S who has solid knowledge about all of this stuff and even after years of hearing the same stuff still comes here to help when he can.Kudos to you.

Only you can decide what's best for you. Maybe it's a good idea to go discuss the naltrexone n see what you think. It's good that you no longer want opiates x
 
^I don't wanna scare you, but even 1mg of suboxone will hold you comfortably...

Whstever chart you read that equated 40mgs of oxy to 2mgs of bupe, it's a very rough chart that's probably only talking about "analgesic properties", how well it kills pain...

You cannot compare buprenorphine to regular opioid agonists...It's a very unusual drug...That's why we keep telling people not to take high doses...This drug does not follow the logic of a normal opiate...

Yeah, trying to use 40mg of oxy as a gauge of how much suboxone you should take or how you should get off of it is not going to work very well....2mgs will hold much higher than 40mgs of oxycodone...

I understand you're in a hurry to jump off of it, but when you go to zero is when you're really gonna feel it, regardless of how much you taper down....but the more you can taper down the better off you'll be....


I first went on methadone in '99, before buprenorphine even existed...I felt a nice glow at 50mgs and kept going up to 100...I realized that because of tolerance, raising my dose anymore wasn't gonna get me much higher after I adjusted to it...What it was gonna do is make my habit skyrocket...It was difficult to get off the methadone, but I did a taper to 1mg and it wasn't that bad...

Low doses of buprenorphine are a lot stronger than it seems like, and it does lose effectiveness after a certain point...

Whenever you stop taking it, is when you're gonna feel the WDs....Stock up on other stuff to make it as smooth as possible, but it takes a good 2-3 weeks to feel normal....
 
^Its the Bupe's long half life that makes it much more difficult. Instead of being sick for 4-5 days from an oxycodone withdrawal you will be sick for 2-3 weeks. Its really hard to compare the severity of withdrawal from X mg of Bupe/day to Y mg of oxycodone/day. because of the drastic half life difference of the 2 meds.

I've cold turkeyed that much oxy and more, too. I do not think I could cold turkey off 2 mg of bupe, but honestly I wouldn't even try because I don't have weeks of my life to throw away, nor do I have the desire to go through that ordeal.

Bupe is a weird drug... I can't compare it with any other opiate. The stacking effect from the long half life means it can take weeks to get it out of your system.
Don't get discouraged...forewarned is forearmed. Just tell yourself your gonna feel pretty shitty for awhile.
It's not as brutal as oxy WD....but it seems to last forever.
You sound determined...you can do it!
 
Wow, I just can't understand 2mg being a hefty dose. It only equates to something like 40 mg oxy. I could kick a 40 mg oxy habit in my sleep. lol I did kick 90 mg a day thing on my own. ( That was no walk in the park, but I did it)

So is 2 mg like quitting from 40mg oxy? Or is it totally different? Would it be hell or bearable?

Can someone tell me how to cut strips into 1 mg and .5 mg? how the heck could you cut .25? They have been giving me the tablet form, but I have some strips. I assume that from this point that 20 mg of sub will be enough for me to taper to where I need to be.

I'm going to just go to 1 mg tomorrow and hold that for 2-3 days and see how I feel. I want this to be done and as easy on me as possible.

Is the every other day method a good plan?


When it comes to detoxing from suboxone, you really want to get to sub-milligram levels, and then as low as possible. Trust me, the withdrawals from kicking 2mg's compared to something like .25 or even .5 are night and day. Cutting the strips down into .5's and .25's is pretty easy to. Just keep cutting them in half.

If you have an 8mg strip, for .5mg doses, cut them into 16 pieces. If you have a 2mg strip, it's even easier, you only have to cut them into 4 pieces.

For .25mg doses (where I recommend to jump) cut an 8mg strip into 32 pieces (it's actually not that hard) and a 2mg strip into 8 pieces.

As for getting on the naltrexone.. that's really up to you. I have heard some really nasty things about it and the people I know who have tried it really regretted it.
 
Yeah, Not Again, I've noticed your posts during the past few weeks regarding your taper, and I didn't really want to say anything bc i didn't want to be discouraging, but really, 2 mgs is the highest i've ever had to go on suboxone to get as much as is possible for me to get out of the drug. Coming off any amount of other drugs (a few hundred mgs of oxy or a gram+ of heroin, ived daily anyway), the most bupe that has still had an w/d killing/therapeutic effect on me is 2 mgs. I've started at higher doses before without any difference. Getting to that point (2 mgs) from higher dosages, for me, has never even been noticeable. really, tapering sub has never been noticeable at all to me until the 1mg to .5mg drop, and even then it's not that bad. Stopping completely is where the suck really sets in for me. As someone else said, you don't really feel buprenorphine after a while--u just feel normal--so it's easy to trick yourself into thinking that coming off will be a cake walk bc you haven't been getting high anyway. It is often not. Follow the advice here and taper to the lowest amount possible. 2 mgs is absolutely too high to jump; so is 1. I would at least hold at .5 for a while, and ideally drop to .25 or lower before dropping off to minimize w/d symptoms.
 
Not Again, the good news it that you still have 20mgs of bupe...You can take your time...I think folding them is the easiest way to break them up...I fold all mine into 16ths, which is .5...From there, I'd just fold those and rip them for a .25...

Maybe I just suck with scissors, but every time I've tried to do it without folding them and using scissors, the pieces end up all goofy and uneven...

A lot of doctors love to use the naltrexone because it makes them look good....Here they are charging people's families thousands of dollars to "cure" them of opiate addiction, and half the time the person just walks out the door and gets high the same day! You have to be determined to stop...being off everything feels great, it's totally worth doing!...A lot of people think they should stay on maintenance for life because they're able to live a normal life on them, but you don't realize what the maintenance drugs are doing to you until you stop taking them...There's a lot of subtle feelings that get dulled..

Anyway, doctors love the naltrexone because it completely blocks you from getting high...It makes a relapse impossible, so that makes them look like they what they're doing....The reality is, you'll only stop if you wan to stop...Knowing that you have something in your system that's preventing you from being able to do opiates can help some people...but people who have been on opiates for a lot of years sometimes report feeling shitty on them...I wonder how much of your natural endorphins the stuff blocks myself...

I'm on 1.5mgs twice a day right now, my girlfriend is on .5mgs 3 times a day...I know I'm gonna need 3 weeks of not being under a lot of pressure to jump off....I could get to 1.5mgs twice a day no problem...I was at .5mgs once a day for a month in the spring, but I'm taking it to maintain and for the anxiolytic properties and the little buzz it gives me...You may notice that you feel 2mgs and less more than the higher doses..

If you taper to .25 and do it right, you should be able to function, but I'd clear your schedule as much as possible when you make the jump..
 
well thanks for the advice, and thanks for scaring the crap outta me....

I will taper a bit more and get to the mcg prolly .5

Then at .5 start skipping days.

I just found this while searching and his idea is similar to what the rehab I was going to is doing. He also has a skipping day method that sounds good.

It says once down to .5 skip a day then skip 2 days then skip 3 days once your at the 4th day the half life has caught up with it's self and you should be ok.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-drugs/suboxone-subutex-therapy-50887.html

p.s sorry to post a link to another forum. I was going to post it here but it's way too long.

So here's the last part that makes a lot of sense.

after I reached .5mg I began a process of skipping days. I would take a dose one day, then skip one day. Then dose again, and then skip two days. Then dose again, and then skip three days. Then dose again, and then skip four days. After four days clean I was finished. The half life has had time to catch up with itself.

We have found some people, for whatever reason, tend to stress out and suffer anxiety when it comes time to skip days. If that is your experience you can continue the standard 25% taper every four days all the way down to zero in lieu of skipping days if that makes you feel better. Again we are all a little different. The idea is to be successful and the skipping days is not written in stone. That is what worked for me and has worked for most others following this taper plan. But if you need to taper down to nothing instead of skipping days that is certainly a viable and acceptable option.

The reason for sometimes feeling w/d symptoms is the long half life of buprenorphine, the main drug that is in sub and the generic now available. To be very simple it can take days before we experience the w/d symptoms from sub. So this is why we wait for four days to allow for the half life which can easily be up to 72 hours depending on some variables. When we make it four days without symptoms we should be fine reducing again.

It’s not uncommon to have some minor side effects from sub as with almost any medication. There can be some depression, sleep problems, anxiety. So we suggest not taking the sub close to bedtime, get some mild to moderate exercise depending on your physical condition, there are things to do that will help lots of things. But stick with the same principles all the way down as far as you are comfortable. We are here to help at that point.
 
I've seen several people keep up a work or school schedule right thru a low dose jump...but I was so weak I could hardly walk a flight of stairs. Everyone is different and it helps if your young...
People really seem to panic a bit when they don't feel ok after two weeks...the major shittyness is over by week two, but the weakness and depression can last 30 days or more..
It really helps to sleep..and there are some good non addictive sleep meds that are fairly easy to get from a Drs. Trazadone is a godsend...and Nerontin helps the jimmy-legs, pain and over all kick. Ibuprofen around the clock too..
But first you got to get yourself to .25mg. How long have you been at 2mg? Will you drop to 1.5 next?
 
I wouldn't want anything to do with jumping off sub above .2 mg. I did get down to under .1 mg and jumped after using it for 1-1/2 months. I hardly noticed a difference from stopping. I think it helped that I didn't stay on it that long.
 
^Its the Bupe's long half life that makes it much more difficult. Instead of being sick for 4-5 days from an oxycodone withdrawal you will be sick for 2-3 weeks. Its really hard to compare the severity of withdrawal from X mg of Bupe/day to Y mg of oxycodone/day. because of the drastic half life difference of the 2 meds.

I've cold turkeyed that much oxy and more, too. I do not think I could cold turkey off 2 mg of bupe, but honestly I wouldn't even try because I don't have weeks of my life to throw away, nor do I have the desire to go through that ordeal.

Yea, the half-life plays a huge role in the withdrawals. An equivalent dose of oxy is usually easier to quit because while using the oxy your body has times when there is little to no oxy in your system, so your brain is still familiar with operating without any drugs so when it's finally without them it's not as much of a shock.

With suboxone you have it in your system 24/7 so your brain is so used to having the sub in it that stopping is pretty difficult since you go from bupe all the time to no bupe at all. Compare that to oxy where you are going from oxy for maybe half the day, then going back to normal for a bit which is when you start feeling sick between doses.

As for the naltrexone, if you decide to take it make sure to wait 10 days after your last dose of suboxone before starting it. It's not like bupe or naloxone which only puts you into precipitated withdrawals if you still have opiates in your system from that day. The naltrexone puts you into precipitated withdrawals if there are even any metabolizes of the drug in your system, so with bupe it takes a while to be in the clear.

Take it from me, I only waited 6 days after only taking a total of 8mg of suboxone over 4-5 days, and it put me through precipitated withdrawals that did not get better for 2 days. It sucked since I had already kicked everything, but then it put me back in withdrawals and they were a little different than regular withdrawals but def bad. If you read around you will hear of other people that went through this after their doctor told them they would be good to start it after a week off the subs, but it was not enough.
 
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