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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Suboxone and Fiorcet

KratomTom

Greenlighter
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
13
I was doing pods for quite awhile and tried to switch over to Fiorcet (butabarbital, caffeine and APAP) which was at least obtainable and affordable. Worked well for awhile and I cut the pod use down to 20 grams a day, then I was doing fiorcet and sometimes 150mg of Tramadol in between on different days. Then the whole thing got to be too much so I decided to get on Suboxone. The first 4 days I took it, first day 6mg, second 8mg, then the doc wanted me to go to 16 but on the first and second days my eyes felt like they were going to explode and I had a super headache, I had to stay in bed in a dark room. I cut to 2mg on days 3 and 4 where the doc wanted me to take 16mg. The 2 mg was better and on the 4th day I actually felt real good. After that I went to his schedule 16mg per day but I don't really feel anything. And I now have a problem with the fiorcet. I can cut down on them but if I am at work and start to get edgy 2 fios help out.
The doc gave me valium to help with this, it makes me too slow and tired at work to do anything. The fios work but too much caffeine and APAP...... Plus if you build up too much it sounds like you have been drinking.
Question is, is there anything else that is reasonably safe to take with suboxone? I could take tramadol to switch off the fios or even some phentermine. but will it throw me into withdrawals ??? or make things worse. I just need to get off the daily fios for like 3 days and I will be good with just the suboxone......
 
Taking opiates and barbiturates isn't a good idea just in general, but since you've been combining it with the pods you must have a tolerance for both opiates and barbs. Butalbarbital isn't the strongest barb either...

However, Suboxone isn't pods, so please be careful when it comes to combining that with your barbs. As far as combining Suboxone and Tramadol, there was a Tram + Sub thread floating around here somewhere....here it is.

How much Fioricets have you been taking? There is the possibility of mild barbiturate withdrawal from those as well, and the last thing you wanna be doing is going through opiate and barbiturate withdrawal at the same time...
 
phentermine isn't a good idea, its a amphetamine like stimulant that will just cause anxiety and problems.

the valium you got should help, although you've been taking a barb so you should have some tolerance to GABAergics. if the valium makes you too slow like you said try a lower dose.
 
^ Good point, stimulants in general should be avoided while withdrawing from opiates and/or depressants.

You want to keep your anxiety levels as low as possible.
 
Thanks so much all of you.....
I got off the pods, with suboxone and it me terrible migraines, I told my doc and asked if it might be the naloxone causing it and I should be on subutex? He said he can only give subutex to pregnant woman. I stuck out the pain for 3 days and on the 4th it felt like everyone told me it felt. "Put up with WD for 12 hours, Go in get a dose and 20 minutes you are good as new". But while I was in pain those 3 days, although scared to take any other drugs and make things worse, I couldn't take it anymore and did some fios. They helped me make it to the 4th day.

Now I can take any amount of Suboxone in the morning, 4, 8, 16, I still feel the same, just not in WD. Then during the day I get shaky, I tried doing 4mg 4 times a day as when first taken it does provide a little calmness. When I told my doc, he said, "It doesn't work like that" it has a half life of 32 hours and if you take 16 in the morning should be better than 4,4,4,4. I also read the whole "Less is more" thread on sub.
So now experimenting with the sub dosage, I wake up around 4am and drop 8 or 16 of sub and 2 fios. Then around 10am 2 fios, 2 fios at 3-4 and 2 or 3 fios for bed.......... It's pretty much the prescribed dosage 1-2 every 4 hours.

When I was in detox a few years back I heard the nurses saying the doctor was using Tramadol to help getting people onto suboxone, but I figured he gave them some tram instead of just going cold.
not together.

So if I can do Tram it will be a big help to kick the fios, I don't even really like the fios, its just after you do them for awhile they are good. at first if you do 3, you just feel like you have been drinking, but after doing them for awhile doing 2 or 3 gives you a small rush almost like an Opiate and it kicks in, in like 5 minutes......

Doing Tram I always do 3, no more no less..... and usually never more than every other day.....

If they work it will be a god send but I know, there is the chance I will get hooked on all three.

I really want to get off this crap, I was on methadone for 12 years, then clean for 10, if it (meth) wasn't such a pain to get I would rather be on that..... Way back when your family doctor used to give you a script for methadone..... 10mg dolophine's, then everyone ruined it by selling, shooting, snorting, trading. Just like whats going to happen to suboxone, they will bump it up to Class II.

But thanks so much for the help, at least I have things to try, its a shame the doctors can't work it out and you have to do it yourself.
 
Now I can take any amount of Suboxone in the morning, 4, 8, 16, I still feel the same, just not in WD. Then during the day I get shaky, I tried doing 4mg 4 times a day as when first taken it does provide a little calmness. When I told my doc, he said, "It doesn't work like that" it has a half life of 32 hours and if you take 16 in the morning should be better than 4,4,4,4. I also read the whole "Less is more" thread on sub.
So now experimenting with the sub dosage, I wake up around 4am and drop 8 or 16 of sub and 2 fios. Then around 10am 2 fios, 2 fios at 3-4 and 2 or 3 fios for bed.......... It's pretty much the prescribed dosage 1-2 every 4 hours.

The less is more sub thing is only for some people, your mileage may vary, and it looks like it is.

I'm actually more concerned about you developing a dependency on the Fioricets, I used to be prescribed them for migraines and I noticed a tolerance to the effects of the barbiturate showing up very quickly, faster than benzodiazepine tolerance develops by a long shot. That's a pretty large amount of butalbital. The longer you use Fioricets the worse your rebound headaches have the possibility of being.

There are other classes of drugs that are even more effective than Fioricet and similar medication, namely the triptans, however, they would more than likely interact with Tramadol, since they both work through serotonin systems. That's something you would want to discuss with your doctor if he decides to switch your migraine medication to something other than the barbiturate/caffeine/APAP combination products.

So if I can do Tram it will be a big help to kick the fios, I don't even really like the fios, its just after you do them for awhile they are good. at first if you do 3, you just feel like you have been drinking, but after doing them for awhile doing 2 or 3 gives you a small rush almost like an Opiate and it kicks in, in like 5 minutes......

Tramadol is an oddball drug, it has both SNRI and opiate actions, which can make it hit or miss for many people. I actually noticed that it caused headaches for me on the comedown, something I blame on the SNRI action. It doesn't really have any GABAgernic action like barbs do, which means it would be of limited usefulness when it comes to coming off the Fioricets. I would go with either tapering down your dosage of Fioricet or switching to a benzodiazepine and tapering with that, if you feel you need to.

I'm not experienced at all when it comes to barbiturates, maybe somebody with more experience in that drug class can back up or refute my statements about that....

I really want to get off this crap, I was on methadone for 12 years, then clean for 10, if it (meth) wasn't such a pain to get I would rather be on that..... Way back when your family doctor used to give you a script for methadone..... 10mg dolophine's, then everyone ruined it by selling, shooting, snorting, trading. Just like whats going to happen to suboxone, they will bump it up to Class II.

You can do it. But i still think you should quit one drug at a time instead of trying to do both with Tramadol.
 
So if I can do Tram it will be a big help to kick the fios, I don't even really like the fios, its just after you do them for awhile they are good. at first if you do 3, you just feel like you have been drinking, but after doing them for awhile doing 2 or 3 gives you a small rush almost like an Opiate and it kicks in, in like 5 minutes......

Opiates will not help the symptoms of barbiturate withdrawals. It works the other way around. If you take opiates to try to get off barbiturates or benzodiazepines it can make the symptoms of muscle tension/pain/spasms worse.
 
OK.... I am writing too much so it is confusing for you guys, but very helpful....
1. I am already hooked on the Fios
2. I don't have any headaches, it was only when trying to get on the subox, my eyes felt like they were going to explode. Other people said they just put up with one day of WD and the subox was a wonder.
3. I am trying to get stable on Subox and get off the fios. So now maybe tram could help me cut down, at least I know it won't throw me into WD in the middle of work.
4. Once I am stable on subox I can start to cut down, seems its pretty easy until you try to jump off. Or I may just stay on for awhile, I have a wife, kids, job, no time to be sick.

Subox just kinda makes you straight, where Methadone you always have that little warmth there.

Thanks for all the help.
 
Ahh, okay, that makes more sense.

I would work on getting stable on the subs first thing, and then cut down, like you said.

After that has been worked out, I would work on getting off the Fioricets.
 
I've found with suboxone that once I got over the idea that I needed 8mgs of sub a day I was able to drop down to 2mgs a day without much pain. The big difference is I don't crave other opiates on 8mgs of sub a day, while on 2mgs a day I start thinking about Heroin again. I don't have insurance so I'm trying to use as little amount of sub as possible, but I feel so much better on sub, I don't want to go back to H again.
 
^Good to hear!

I think the OP should be able to (slowly) reduce his Suboxone dosage to a level that he feels comfortable with, and then take it from there.

Keep us posted, KratomTom. :)
 
Barbs are no joke. I got on Fioricet and ended up hooked on them as bad as any benzo I ever have. Taking 20-ish a day and I was so fucking strung out on them. The bright side was I took them for migraines, and during the many months I was on them I never had a headache.

But the dark side is that not having headaches is a small price to pay compared to a potentially deadly addiction to barbiturates. But I was after a while to the point where I was on opioids, barbs, benzos, and pregabalin. Specifically, suboxone, pentazocine, or heroin, butalbital, and alprazolam and temazepam with up to 2 grams of pregabalin a day. It was bad, to say the fucking least.

Be careful...barbs intoxicate in a way that is hard to put your finger on, because unlike with benzos, I didn't black out on barbs, could usually think straight, and thought I had self-control. In retrospect, I was dangerously mistaken.
 
Problem with Butalbital is that all the combinations include Caffeine so increasing doses just make it harder to feel. That is what prevented me from becoming hooked. 5 pills has as much caffeine as 2 cups of coffee. I'm real sensitive to caffeine, makes me edgy and hard to sleep, uncomfortable at doses so high. It overrides the effects of the barbiturate for me.
 
^ I definitely agree, man, but to an extent. Reason being, butalbital is probably one of my favorite drugs, period. I fucking love it, it's euphoric as hell to me. Excellent social lubricant. Unfortunately, the caffeine can get to be a little much in higher doses, just like you said...though that never stopped me, haha. At the right dose, I feel like the caffeine compliments the barb. It just depends, I guess. I was a Fiorifiend.
 
Well I am stable on the Suboxone now 16mg per day all in the morning. and I have cut the fios some. I also found that if I am real busy at work I can go a good 8 - 10 hours without, and even then just take 2 for a pick me up. I also feel I can cut the Sub easily until I get to the lower dosages. When I was doing Pods I was doing Pods one day and Tramadol the next, then to get off the pods (which by the way, I think are completly banned now, all the sites seem to be down)
Next move is to try to stay off fios for 3 days, which it seems is safe enough to try using Tramadol or Phentermine, I know ones an ope and ones an upper but my body doesn't care, as long as there is some effect it doesn't care if its up or down. Didrex would be better but they seem to be hard to come by these days.............
 
^ I definitely agree, man, but to an extent. Reason being, butalbital is probably one of my favorite drugs, period. I fucking love it, it's euphoric as hell to me. Excellent social lubricant. Unfortunately, the caffeine can get to be a little much in higher doses, just like you said...though that never stopped me, haha. At the right dose, I feel like the caffeine compliments the barb. It just depends, I guess. I was a Fiorifiend.

There does exist a version that is only butalbital and APAP, I can't remember what its brand name was, it may have been Fioricet without Caffeine for all I know. The generic was "Butalbital and acetaminophen". I had a prescription for that one after I had the Fioricet. Certainly more addictive/euphoric than the version with caffeine.

KratomTom:

I think you have the right idea with using the Tramadol, but I still think you should avoid using phentermine, even though its not as potent as, say, Adderall or Dexedrine, it is still a stimulant and will most likely make your withdrawal symptoms that much worse and you'll have to end up either taking more depressants to counter-act the anxiety or more opiates.

You certainly can lower that Suboxone dosage down to whatever you feel you can handle and take it from there. No shame in maintaining on a steady dose either, the point of the Suboxone is to make WDing as easy as possible. :)
 
I just had to revive this thread b/c I have extensive experience w/ butalbital (& I wish some would spell it correctly? ..As many barbiturates have very similar spellings).. & there isn't a whole lot of information on it on BL. There's even less information on habituation! Anyway, I can also relate to this thread b/c I am on 4mg of buprenorphine (suboxone formula). I have also been dependent upon butalbital, at doses of around 1500mg-1800mg/day, for around 4 years (used intermediately w/ carisoprodol up until it was scheduled here in the US in Jan '12). I increased my dosage from 200mg/day to my current dose (roughly ~9 times increase in dosage) during this time due to tolerance.

Be careful, dependency & tolerance creeps up quickly. & also, at higher doses i've noticed intoxicated-like side effects (ataxia, dizziness, mental cloudiness, long-term memory issues) w/ much less euphoriant or medicinal properties as noticed at lower doses. Even if I attempt to increase a single typical dose by 50%-100%, I get little effect. From my personal experience, this "lack of effect" starts to realize itself around ~1000mg/day. I don't know if my experience w/ butalbital is due to some unknown ceiling effect, or merely b/c it is an intermediate-acting barbiturate w/ a relatively low lipid solubility (compared to other barbiturates). Also, since some of my butalbital use constitutes the fioricet formula, the NSAID-effects of acetaminophen may antagonize the GABAergic effects of barbiturates (this is documented phenomena), not sure on this though. Also, naloxone is used for barbiturate overdose; & although I am only consuming 1mg of naloxone via a very very poorly absorbed route (sublingual)- this may contribute, perhaps?

BUT I DIGRESS, SEE BELOW ON WEANING...
 
First:
I highly recommend attempting to wean off butalbital first for several reasons: I guarantee you'll be at my dosage levels eventually (its fucking expensive, I have depression more severe than i've ever had before, my sleep is erratic & disturbed, its very hard to function "normally", and if you're using the fioricet formula be aware that more than 12 pills a day exceeds 4000 mg of acetaminophen, the maximum dosage--daily use at or above this level will cause hepatotoxicity and/or liver cirrhosis). ALSO, psychologically very important: GABAergics are very VERY prone to cause PAWS (they'll especially increase long term anxiety & induce general hypersensitivity to stimuli long after cessation of use, sometimes even years; possibly even indefinitely). I went 5 days w/o butalbital & I likely lost my fucking mind; Yes, there is a more psychological/craving issue w/ opiates, but coming off of 1-2 bundles (10-20 bundles) of dope a day was a goddamn walk in the park compared to barbiturate withdrawal!

So, the w/d I felt during those 5 days? ..Auditory & visual hallucinations, extreme paranoia, anxiety, & insomnia (the latter 3 symptoms of which are magnitudes worse than opioid w/d), tremor, nausea, vomiting, & diarrhea (not as bad as opiate w/d), intense RLS, twitching, minor convulsions (in my experience), bone pain (barbiturates do have analgesic properties after all), chills, fever, and profuse sweating. & this was only 5 days of w/d.. i found it peaked on day 2; mental effects increased to frightening levels on day 3 (this turned to be the "peak"). Its been a year. I am still affected by this, I still cannot watch certain TV shows i watched during this time without triggering extreme psychological stress. I've never had a "flashback" from psychedelics (& I used a lot- I had the luxury of sampling many psychedelics b/c I went thru my "tripping phase" before before the DEA's "operation web tryp", which busted all the vendors).. but this is a "flashback" of sorts. I am not familiar w/ PTSD, but it may be some manifestation of this.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Process Of Weaning:
SO.. to weaning: Oddly enough, both butalbital & buprenorphine have nearly similar mean biological half lives- 34 hours & ~37 hours, respectively (although buprenorphine has a more erratic half-life, dependent upon your personal metabolism).. So the following info can apply to both drugs. But first.. REMEMBER you should only reduce your current dose by 5-10% per "wean" (i.e., w/ butalbital, if you've managed to stabilize on 200mg/day & you're ready to wean again, reduce to 180-190mg. This may be tricky, but you can fix this by crushing the pills & equally dividing the piles into needed doses. Then mix w/ any citric juice or carbonated colas). Also, b/c of relatively long half lives; each "wean" should occur every 5-15 days.. OR, perhaps a better measure, you can drop/wean when you feel "normal" or stablized at your lowered dose (remember, don't expect to feel "high" or euphoria since you're weaning; you're just looking for normality, stability, functionality).

During the weaning process, the low-end doses become much more tough. So, I find the following procedure very helpful. When you get comfortable at the minimally prescribed dose (for buprenorphine this is 0.2 mg - 0.3 mg. For butalbital, this is 50 mg), you can stop dropping your dose & instead start slowly spacing out your doses (using a longer time frame for spacing- 10-20 days. OR, you can space out to your comfort- so long as you feel stabilized). Use intervals of 6 hours (particularly w/ butalbital, this may differ w/ buprenorphine/suboxone). For example, once you're at 50 mg/day of butalbital, space out your dosing from every 24 hours to every 30 hours; then in, say, 10 days space out dosing 50 mg of butalbital to once every 36 hours (or 1.5 days). Once you get comfortable/stabilized dosing every 4-6 days, you should be alright to stop. Although if needed, before you completely stop you may have to stretch out dosing intervals depending on length of use (max should be dosing every 10 days before cessation, in order to avoid continued use).

JUST REMEMBER: its about RELATIVE DOSES.. not absolute milligrams! Many people tend to drop from 2mg of suboxone to 1mg for example. But this is a 50% drop!! To feel relatively comfortable, you should drop from 2mg to 1.8mg in this scenario! Good luck!
 
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