Suboxone - A waste of medicine

[dusk84]

Okay bluelighters, I had to get this information out somewhere, so I figured here would be the best place to do it. SWIM has a legal script of 4mg of Ativan a day, for the past 10 years, and a gram+ of heroin a day. Let me make this next sentence clear. SUBOXONE MAY WORK FOR HEAVY HEROIN ADDICTS, BUT IS ONLY IDEAL FOR YOUR RUN OF THE MILL PILL POPPER. To transition to suboxone (especially if you're like SWIM, and have a co-morbid benzo addiction) from a really heavy heroin habit (10 caps (that's what it is in dayton, tenths of grams, but they're really like 20ths) a day) you must be in withdrawals SO bad that it's ten times more worth it to just let it run the rest of it's course. Of course, a suboxone doctor will tell you suboxone and benzos can be lethal, even though common sense would tell you this quack obviously doesn't realize if a gram of heroin + 4mg of ativan a day won't kill you, a shitty ass sub + 4mg of ativan won't, but hey, he's the professional, right? So they will tell you to wait until you're as sick as possible, which is impossible, because they also want you to quit your benzos, so your anxiety skyrockets at 24 hours, but heavy heroin users will go into precipitated withdrawals (look it up) which are god awful if they don't wait at least 48. if you're gonna wait 48, you might as well push it past 72 and do it cold turkey.

i'm not advocating methadone, but at least it doesn't include a painful transition. the goal of suboxone is to minimize the pain of the transition, but if you're a heavy heroin user (especially one with a comorbid benzo addiction) you have to go through so much pain before suboxone will work, you might as well go through a little more pain and ride it all the way out. this is just my honest opinion for all those poor souls torturing themselves and wondering why suboxone isn't working even though they waited 24 hours, and why if you take benzos with H you might as well save your benzo script because it works better for anxiety during w/d than the subs do, in my opinion. hell, knock yourself out with the benzos until the worst of the w/ds are over. i am just extremely upset that suboxone is as overrated as it is. for anyone with a half serious habit, the transition is so much work and letting yourself get way sicker (what most addicts want to avoid) to restabalize is just, idiotic. then, you just have another addiction to come down from which (like methadone) people say is worse than heroin. DON'T BE FOOLED. if you want to go through the terrible pain of withdrawal, to get minimal relief from a drug that will not only block all other opiates from your system, but be just as hard to come off of, go do suboxone. it, is not a miracle drug. it is the orange bile of satan's rotten guts spewed out from the 7th layer of hell by satan himself. if you're a heroin user and suboxone is your only option, TAPER FIRST. if you can't get down to maybe 1 cap (5-10 dollars worth) a day, suboxone isn't going to work. it's not impossible, but the goal is either pain or no pain right? why feel 80% of the w/d to get on subs when you can just feel a little bit more crappy for ONE MORE DAY and start to naturally feel better? i understand, if you're at 48 hours and you JUST CANT TAKE IT (been there) switch to subs. but the transition will NOT be easy and they will try to rip your script of benzos. case closed.

*Edit* Couldn't find the suboxone forum, or opiate, sorry if posted in wrong place.

 

[Jabberwocky]

We don't SWIM here. Read BLUA.

Other than that, I don't even know where to begin... That sucks that is sounds like your went through precipitated withdrawal, but that isn't buprenorphine's fault.

You probably meant to post this in Other Drugs (that is the forum for opioids for instance).

 

[cj]

I agree with you that suboxone may not work for someone with a heavy IV heroin habit. Also quitting Benzos cold turkey is dangerous and many sub docs don't know there head from there ass. That said I don't think this is Sober Living material so I am moving it to The Dark Side mods there can do as they wish. Welcome to Bluelight!

 

[dusk84]

thanks, i knew i probably misplaced it. yes, the doctor lost all my faith when he said "buprenorphine combined with benzos OR MARIJUANA is deadly, and that cocaine is not a problem", he is a quack for sure.

 

[dusk84]

so i'm going to attempt the impossible i guess, cold turkey with nothing but clonodine, phenergen, robaxin, and ativan. and immodium. wish me luck. the motivation being i'm fighting to keep my benzos (which i actually need, painkillers i do not, well not heroin anyway) should allow me to push harder than i've ever pushed before. *side note* i have successfully detoxed at home ONE TIME but literally drowned myself in ativan (at which point i didn't have a script for, nor a tolerance) and knocked myself out hence my suggestion above. this is obviously, dangerous, and recommended for no one, but it worked for me.

 

[Carl Landrover]

This logic makes no sense whatsoever. Like I'm not even going to type more to explain my confusion because it just makes no sense.

To transition to suboxone....you must be in withdrawals SO bad that it's ten times more worth it to just let it run the rest of it's course.

Is your gripe more with suboxone or the fact that suboxone docs make you try to get off benzos at the same time? They're very different issues.


This is the unedited quote, I just took out the parts in parentheses:

To transition to suboxone (especially if you're like SWIM, and have a co-morbid benzo addiction) from a really heavy heroin habit (10 caps (that's what it is in dayton, tenths of grams, but they're really like 20ths) a day) you must be in withdrawals SO bad that it's ten times more worth it to just let it run the rest of it's course.

 

[dusk84]

This logic makes no sense whatsoever. Like I'm not even going to type more to explain my confusion because it just makes no sense.






Is your gripe more with suboxone or the fact that suboxone docs make you try to get off benzos at the same time? They're very different issues.

Kindof both. It's a comorbid issue. Even a regular heavy user would have to wait about 48 hours (24 isn't enough for people that shoot as much as me) and then if you're suffering that badly already, push it another 24 hours to 72 and it'd be altogether for the better. Also, if you try coming off opiates and benzos at the same time, you're not going to be able to go long enough without freaking out because they're both raising your anxiety through the roof. My gripe is with the fact A if you're using heroin and benzos and doing just dandy, subs and benzos won't kill you. period. so yes, i have the gripe he wants me to taper off of 4mg a day of ativan in 6 days. My second gripe is that heavy opioid users get really sick when they still have a lot of heroin in their systems, because it's far less than they're used to. for example, someone who uses 2 grams of heroin a day may be vomiting and convulsing when all but half a gram of heroin has left his body. but that half a gram still in there will be kicked out by a suboxone and send him into even worse withdrawals. my gripe is that heavy users must go through an excruciating level of agony before suboxone will provide relief, why not ride out that agony a day or two more and just get it over with?

*Edit* for those of you uninformed, half a gram of heroin is still a lot. my point is, there is a cutoff and it's not well known and it needs to be known. everyone keeps saying what a miracle drug suboxone is for combatting heroin, but that's a lie. it should read "miracle drug for combatting narcotic pain pills and very low heroin habits, almost completely inneffective for "rock star" habits." my issue is with both, but if i had to focus this post into one issue it's that suboxone just doesn't work if you're on too high a dose of heroin. I read another post (on this site) that said if 30 - 50 mg methadone won't help your sickness, suboxone will be ineffective. if this is true, it is weaker than i thought. all my friends are on 120-145mg methadone maintenance (i can't do it cuz i don't have a car) for habits lower than mine. i don't know the quality of everywhere else in the world, but around here we LIKE hearing about fentenyl laced shit, because it's the only thing left strong enough to give us a buzz. maybe we are the minority in being able to get that GOOD of quality of dope, but for us, suboxone just doesn't work. That's what i'm warning other "heavy" users about.

 

[My3sons]

I totally get what you mean. I was on subs the first time around but couldn't catch after my last 2 year relapse. I also had a heavy iv habit and just couldn't tolerate waiting the 48 hours. Too many responsibilities and didnt have the 48 hours to hide out so would try subs too early and go into pwds. So i went with mmt this time.

 

[Ligaturd]

It is a liability issue to be prescribing buprenorphine (an opioid) while knowing the parient is still going to be using benzo's. I have heard of people being prescribed alprazolam along with Suboxone in quite a few cases, I understand though why doctors won't touch it though. Once you can get past the initial discomfort, suboxone can provide you with a lot of stability in life. Opioid users are babies and even though pain is only temporary, our brains are screaming for instant gratification. I can tell you, it is worth it to get over the initial discomfort. I've been on suboxone for two months and my life is soo different just in this short period of time, I'm no longer hurting myself and my emotions are my own. It does provide stability, cut down on cravings.

I made sure that my dose was rather low, I don't get any euphoria from suboxone, it doesn't pacify me like full agonists do. I still have massive anxiety, depression and also it doesn't numb e physically, I have started producing testosterone somewhat normally, if I was on a full agonist or a much higher dose, this would not be the case. But as it stands right now, my life is much different and I am able to go through the motions, mentally, emotionally, physically I am slowly getting better and I plan to be off of suboxone in a few months. It is helping me get my life together and be able to approach recovery with a clear and stable mind and it also prevents me from using and getting high and regressing.

 

[Phil.McKeer]

Good lord OP, what a pile of crap. I hope to sweet baby jesus (the white one) that no one reads your post and actually believes any of it.

 

[poloblue]

Good lord OP, what a pile of crap. I hope to sweet baby jesus (the white one) that no one reads your post and actually believes any of it.

Same lol while I do wish I was only on them for the short term instead of 3 years it gives u time to get ur mind right n if u taper at a slow enough rate u can avoid nasty w/ds, I had bad w/d's lowering from 8mg to 4 but that was w/ my docs advice, ever since 4 I lower 2 to 4x as slow as he recommended n the w/d's are a cakewalk. So far. Lol I'm @ 1/2 of 1mg so startin to get nervous lowering more, only because of ridiculous stories where the OP prolly wasn't tapering correctly. But still lol

 

[dusk84]

Same lol while I do wish I was only on them for the short term instead of 3 years it gives u time to get ur mind right n if u taper at a slow enough rate u can avoid nasty w/ds, I had bad w/d's lowering from 8mg to 4 but that was w/ my docs advice, ever since 4 I lower 2 to 4x as slow as he recommended n the w/d's are a cakewalk. So far. Lol I'm @ 1/2 of 1mg so startin to get nervous lowering more, only because of ridiculous stories where the OP prolly wasn't tapering correctly. But still lol

Suboxone is crap. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[poloblue]

Suboxone is crap. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Deff agree man over 3 yrs on it n hasn't helped my addict brain at all. All its done is keep me away & now at such a low dose I feel like I did 4 years ago just want to get high. Shits beat.

 

[ish675]

I understand your frustration, but I feel it is inappropriate to badmouth a drug just bacause it didn't work for YOU. I have absolutely no doubt they that was your crappy experience with subs, but I would hate for someone to read this and decide not to even try suboxone. I have been off of a 1-2 gram of good dope habit for over a year with subs. It took a little time (2-3 days) to switch. It's not a miracle drug, nor is it advertised as one. After some initial discomfort from the switch (obviously going from a potent full agonist to a weird agonist / antagonist is not pain free) but except for a few relapses (if you want to call it that) I have been opiate (except for subs) free for over a year. It DOES work for heavier heroin addicts, it just doesn't work for everyone. To everyone else: discuss options with your specialist DOCTOR, suboxone or no.

 

[spacejunk]

Buprenorphine may have its shortcomings, but ultimately - it saves lives, in the current treatment of opioid addiction.

 

[ish675]

Buprenorphine may have its shortcomings, but ultimately - it saves lives, in the current treatment of opioid addiction.

Couldn't have said it better. It's not a miracle cure for addiction. But it offers help in an area where there are not many options. (At least here in the USA)

 

[poloblue]

I understand your frustration, but I feel it is inappropriate to badmouth a drug just bacause it didn't work for YOU. I have absolutely no doubt they that was your crappy experience with subs, but I would hate for someone to read this and decide not to even try suboxone. I have been off of a 1-2 gram of good dope habit for over a year with subs. It took a little time (2-3 days) to switch. It's not a miracle drug, nor is it advertised as one. After some initial discomfort from the switch (obviously going from a potent full agonist to a weird agonist / antagonist is not pain free) but except for a few relapses (if you want to call it that) I have been opiate (except for subs) free for over a year. It DOES work for heavier heroin addicts, it just doesn't work for everyone. To everyone else: discuss options with your specialist DOCTOR, suboxone or no.

Don't get me wrong it's awesome to keep u away from drugs n I felt just like how u do about them, until now, when I'm trying to get off of them & am @ .25mg after years on 8mg....they don't help your addict brain, they do keep you away from dope, while destroying your oral health n keeping your body/mind used to having atleast some kind of opiate for even longer. But yes my first couple years on it @8mg & 4mg I had no ill feelings towards the drug.

 

[ish675]

, while destroying your oral health

I don't mean for this to come off as being as asshole, I just feel the need to clarify. My fiancé is a dentist and she says suboxone has ZERO effect on your oral health. What has an effect is the fact that some people are lazy and don't take proper care of their mouth. When you take drugs, really any kind, people tend to let their personal hygiene slip first. I can guarantee that if you brush at least 2 times daily, and floss regularly, that the subs will have no ill effect. They CAN however cause dry mouth, but again, with the proper medicine (xylitol mints and dry mouth toothpaste) that shouldn't be a problem. Sometimes I even brush an hour or so after taking the sub, but subs alone will not ruin your mouth. If you have poor oral health, before you blame the subs, think back, did you brush and floss as you should have?

 

[cire113]

Wow this thread is hilarious;

Sub works for even the most hardcore addicts but there is an adjustment period ;

Your gonna feel some discomfort no matter what...

All opiates cause dry mouth; the above poster is spot on;

I was inn done and subs for years and my teeth are perfect . I've seen other ppl though loose their whole mouths....

Sub and methadone do save lives ;

But man getting off them is a mother fucking bitch ass of a marathon

Good luck

 

[poloblue]

I don't mean for this to come off as being as asshole, I just feel the need to clarify. My fiancé is a dentist and she says suboxone has ZERO effect on your oral health. What has an effect is the fact that some people are lazy and don't take proper care of their mouth. When you take drugs, really any kind, people tend to let their personal hygiene slip first. I can guarantee that if you brush at least 2 times daily, and floss regularly, that the subs will have no ill effect. They CAN however cause dry mouth, but again, with the proper medicine (xylitol mints and dry mouth toothpaste) that shouldn't be a problem. Sometimes I even brush an hour or so after taking the sub, but subs alone will not ruin your mouth. If you have poor oral health, before you blame the subs, think back, did you brush and floss as you should have?

Cool guys.....lol. Well I do brush twice a day, floss after meals. Word. That's cool your SO is a dentist , some of the most misinformed ppl I've ever met give health advice.... & often are paid for it...I spoke to a representitive for reckitt, about this specific issue, they said the same thing as your SO, that doesn't make them right. Not gonna blindly believe something when I have evidence of the contrary...Although that may make them misinformed & spread misinformation.... Ask the suboxone users, they will tell you. As for being a bum, I haven't engaged in the lack of hygiene lifestyle that comes w/ dope, since I have been on medication...the fact is 4 years of basically "lipping" subs as you would w/ chewing tobacco in no way does your mouth any fucking good lol. That is just common sense. The fact is subs decrease saliva production which is our 1st & main source of defense against bacteria, 4 years of that every single day...even w/ proper oral hygiene has a good chance I.m.o. to diminish oral health to atleast some degree. If medical professionals are arguing w/ that I really have no respect for them. I'm a person that went to the dentist all his life & had the dentists actually compliment the set of chompers I had. Presumably being in the upper echelon of chomper having patients @ this particular place.. Lol. now I agree maybe if I brushed 10 times a day everything would be gravy, but that isn't by any means "practicing normal or acceptable hygiene" that is probably more in line w/ ocd or psychopathy I.m.o....subs have kept me away from dope for 4 yrs, so I am grateful for that. The reason I brought the oral health part up in this forum, & to a rep for reckitt, was because I was not made aware normal & acceptable hygiene might not offset the lack of saliva, & subsequent mouth fucking of up. I've had the need to spit more then ever these days, which worries me even more since dry mouth I shouldn't b spitting getting rid of saliva I already don't have much of....what would your SO recommend to increase my saliva production / save mouth from further damage....or should I start brushing 5 or 10x a day instead of the normal & acceptable 2?