Tryptamines [Storage Subthread] Tryptamines

[FractalStructure]

Hello, I've spent the last hour finding out specific info on something, and I left a comment in the solubility thread but no one seemed to answer nor can I find much of use on this subject:

Two things, first of all

1) 4-AcO-DMT, swim has fumarate salt just lying around in a pretty cool place just as a "line", however its usually at most 60 degrees down here and it hasnt been very long.

2) 4-HO-MiPT, swim has also fumarate salt, and as swim has heard 4-hydroxy's are more prone to hygroscopic bs, so this one is in a tight pill-bottle, double-bagged, with desiccant taped to the top of the bottle, is this sufficient to prevent loss?

I'm mainly wondering what the shelf-life of these substances under these conditions are, and the reason the 4-aco-dmt is just out in the open on a videogame box is because it was the most efficient way to keep it, its still sealed in a cabinet which is cold and dark. Is 4-AcO-DMT hygroscopic?

I looked everywhere online and found no evidence of 4aco degrading too quickly, someone please help me figure this out and tell me if im doing something wrong. The 4-aco is NOT meant for long term (only one more month tops) storage, fyi.

Thanks!

~FS

 

[solistus]

Good questions, and I as well have been curious about 4-aco's stability, but the SWIM talk does no legal good in those rare cases where online posts are actually incriminating. If you want to avoid any potential risk of trouble, stick to hypothetical questions.

All I've been able to find from my fairly light searching (I'm not SWIMming in the stuff myself so I've been less focused in my research) is that the fumarate salt is supposed to be preferred for its stability, but how stable it actually is in the conditions you described (room temperature, dark) is a question I still haven't found the answer to. I understand it's extremely stable when handled like one would LSD - airtight in a dark freezer - and that it supposedly does degrade under normal conditions at some rate but how quickly, or why, I haven't a clue. At any rate, if it is stable for at least a few weeks' time when not kept cool but otherwise properly handled, it would be much more practical.

 

[Delta-9-THC]

So you're not keeping it in the freezer? That's probably the only other thing you can do. I've had my 4-aco-dmt for close to a year and it seems to be exactly the same as when I bought it. Hopefully it stays like that for a while.

I doubt it will degrade noticeably over just a month but you may want to put your 4-aco-dmt in a airtight container just to be sure.

 

[Solipsis]

Well firstly degradation is not a threshold event, it's a gradual slope and several factors are involved which you probably know: light, heat, oxygen and moisture are primary.
Some substances have a specific weakness to one or more of these factors. That's because degradation is a chemical reaction or several of them, depending on certain conditions.

4-substituted tryptamines seem susceptible to oxygen and moisture, both may oxidize the product or turn it into either a compound with a nasty texture - like goo for instance - or an inactive degradation product, or both.

To answer your questions, which 1) is not really: 4-AcO-DMT should probably not be laying around open to the elements whatever the temperature. Protect it from moisture in the air and oxygen just to be safe, even though it seems more stable (esp. the fumarate) than 4-hydroxylated tryptamines. It should last a couple of months easily but IMO the only way to guarantee that is by not letting it sit around openly.

2) You are protecting it well from the most important factors this way, but depending on the timeframe you think of storing it in... consider sticking it in the fridge or freezer. Do make extra sure that your pill-bottle withstands air exchange since colder temperatures come with dangerous levels of condensation.

Shelflife is a gradual slope as well instead of a threshold cutoff. Do you draw the line at a potency drop of 30% or 70%? Even if you answer that every storage situation is different.

You may get an idea from anecdotal evidence but your mileage will most likely vary... from what I hear and read 4-HO tryptamines don't last over a year if you don't give it some proper care. If you make a point out of fighting all 4 factors adequately they should last for years (and years more). If you fail to prevent especially harmful factors from coming in contact with them a day can be plenty to ruin it. Think putting them into water without any anti-oxidant. An anti-oxidant doesn't even help much in all likelyhood.

Be anal about packaging your 4-tryps, otherwise it seems foolish to me to order them at all. I'm happy my 4-HO-MiPT and 4-HO-DiPT are well protected and it wasnt much effort.
I should take care of 4-HO-MET right away.

P.S. no need to create duplicate threads. bump if you must.

 

[any major dude]

I've been reading up on the black gooey 4-subs, erowid has an interesting bit of info on it in the 4-aco-DET page. Anyway, I was noticing a difference in the color of the 4-Aco-DET on the erowid page as compared to some I've recently seen in person. The stuff on erowid's page is almost the same color as the MDAI thats been floating around, which has also reportedly been turning black when stored at room temp, whereas the sample I've seen is very white. Could this possibly be due to a common contaminant?

 

[Delta-9-THC]

Is the desiccant really going to help that much? If 4-subs are stored in glass vials with plastic screw caps and in the freezer will that be sufficient to last years?

I don't know if a desiccant will fit in the vials.

 

[FractalStructure]

I wanted to tell you guys that now my hypothetical 4-aco-DMT is hypothetically not just laying around, I dont have anymore desiccant right now for it, but I put it in the hypothetical rc bag it hypothetically came in (how should i put this... if any of you are familiar with a certain canadian supplier and the bags that they use, does double bagging the 4-aco and putting them in those bigger "special" looking bags help? do they protect from moisture and oxygen?)

Either way, I figure its good enough to make it last at least a few more months without any noticeable degradation, and the -mipt is safe, i think.

However, someone correct me if im wrong, but I chose not to refrigerate because of the constant freezing/thawing/refreezing and the damage that can do to the compound(s).

As a side note, I've had some 2ce for like, a year now that was kept in conditions that would prolly fuck the psilo analogs up and its as good as ever.

I'm joking about the hypothetical thing. I think its probably as legally safe as saying "someone who isnt me just got some drugs, how would this friend of mine adulterate and re-rock the 4564335 ki's of hypothetical cocaine swim just recieved?"

 

[Solipsis]

Is the desiccant really going to help that much? If 4-subs are stored in glass vials with plastic screw caps and in the freezer will that be sufficient to last years?

I don't know if a desiccant will fit in the vials.

I think that depends on the volume of air you seal in with it. Personally I would not like it if the tiny bit of moisture in the air condensed onto the tryptamine in the freezer. Over time it could do the maximum damage for that amount of water. May not be that much but it can catalyze oxidation as well. Most people don't put a sacrifice metal in there like iron shavings, so if you seal in a volume of air you have oxygen.

It may sound tedious but storing somewhat instable molecules is a 'best practice' business dont you agree?

 

[Delta-9-THC]

Certainly. I suppose there is no reason NOT to do it. I definitely want to preserve my tryptamines for as long as possible as it's always been a plan of mine to try to save at least a small amount of each of my favorite chemicals to take 20+ years from now

If it's even possible to save them that long. I don't see why it wouldn't be though as I have heard of LSD being stored from the 60's that still works fine as long as the correct precautions were taken.

My glass vials are very small (the perfect size to hold say at most maybe 2 grams of powder depending on the density) so I'm just hoping that I can find some packets that will fit in there.

 

[NW-baltiland]

I think that depends on the volume of air you seal in with it. Personally I would not like it if the tiny bit of moisture in the air condensed onto the tryptamine in the freezer. Over time it could do the maximum damage for that amount of water. May not be that much but it can catalyze oxidation as well. Most people don't put a sacrifice metal in there like iron shavings, so if you seal in a volume of air you have oxygen.

It may sound tedious but storing somewhat instable molecules is a 'best practice' business dont you agree?

Iron shavings, eh? Never heard that, but it seems like a great idea. Maybe just 2 or 3 little slivers of iron in each vial filled to the top basically. How would you put the iron in with the chems? I like to keep my RC's storred properly inside small, air tight containers, put inside the fridge. Let me ask a question, which is better, fridge or freezer? I would think freezer but then I always put my chems in the fridge because it's right above freezing and I always feel like it will do the least damage, I guess just in case there is any moisture in there. Thanks for the response in advance.

 

[LicktheShade]

I've had 4-aco-dmt (fumarate) for about 6 months, I haven't used it recently but it looks fine, just kept in the original bag.
I got 4-ho-dipt and 4-ho-mipt (fumarate) about a month ago, but at the moment i'm just keeping them in their bags, inside a pouch, inside a box on a shelf away from the sun. Should I be storing these in another way? I don't have much of either compound so I don't want to freeze them for years.

 

[TheAzo]

Magnesium turnings would be better than iron filings.

Or you could just use those silica gel packs that are designed for the purpose.

 

[solistus]

LicktheShade: so you kept it in the baggie, which was in a box in a shelf at room temperature, and it hasn't changed at least visibly in 6 months, right? If you try it anytime, let us know how the potency seems affected.

Solipsis: if 4-aco-dmt fumarate were stored in a vial within an airtight container with dessicant, shavings or something along those lines in the container as well for moisture control, and that were kept in a dark drawer but not cooled below room temperature, do you think that would significantly slow degradation at least compared to it being directly exposed? Any chance you'd hazard a guess on approximately how long its half-life might be in those conditions, or for that matter an approximate time to reach any particular threshold of potency? I'm trying to get an idea of how rapid material loss over time would likely be. Slowly degrading at a rate of a couple percent a week is no huge deal I suppose, although it would make accurate dosing increasingly difficult, but if the stuff will be 90% inactive in a month, I guess it's only practical with freezer storage.

 

[Delta-9-THC]

^I doubt it will degrade that quickly but I can't say that with certainty.

 

[xwinorb]

I think all 4 substituted tryptamines will degrade if exposed to water and/or air. Vacuum pack it. Better keep in freezer also, but I think vacuum packing more important than low temperature.

I have 4-AcO-DiPT and 4-AcO-Mipt, both vacuum packed in plastic in my freezer. Whenever I use any, I weight it and vacuum pack it again.

Easy to find good food vacuum packing machines, not so expensive.

 

[fatso]

I keep my 4- aco-dmt and 4-ho-dipt in small glass amber viles inside a tinted ziplock bag, inside another ziplock, inside the freezer. can it last for years this way? would fridge be better b/c of the constant freezing and thawing the freezer would cause?

 

[xwinorb]

If you vacuum it, don't worry with moisture from having it in/out the freezer. I have mine in vacuum plastic bags, sealed, inside another plastic bag, wrapped arouund it.

Never had seen moisture getting on it, allways dry.

I guess yours will last a long time, but there is still AIR inside the vials. They will eventually loose potency I guess.

Just like shrooms, better way to store them is to dry WELL and to vacuum pack. Avoid air and moisture exposure.

 

[fatso]

i guess ill stick to the freezer then. thanks

 

[DragonFly31]

I wanted to bump this thread as there are questions in it whose answers I'd like to know...

I wanted to tell you guys that now my hypothetical 4-aco-DMT is hypothetically not just laying around, I dont have anymore desiccant right now for it, but I put it in the hypothetical rc bag it hypothetically came in (how should i put this... if any of you are familiar with a certain canadian supplier and the bags that they use, does double bagging the 4-aco and putting them in those bigger "special" looking bags help? do they protect from moisture and oxygen?)

Either way, I figure its good enough to make it last at least a few more months without any noticeable degradation, and the -mipt is safe, i think.

However, someone correct me if im wrong, but I chose not to refrigerate because of the constant freezing/thawing/refreezing and the damage that can do to the compound(s).

As a side note, I've had some 2ce for like, a year now that was kept in conditions that would prolly fuck the psilo analogs up and its as good as ever.

I'm joking about the hypothetical thing. I think its probably as legally safe as saying "someone who isnt me just got some drugs, how would this friend of mine adulterate and re-rock the 4564335 ki's of hypothetical cocaine swim just recieved?"

So, 1) If any of you are familiar with a certain canadian supplier and the bags that they use, does double bagging the 4-aco and putting them in those bigger "special" looking bags help? do they protect from moisture and oxygen?

2)Can constant freezing/thawing/refreezing cause damage?

3) Regarding SWIM and talking hypothetically. Is it, or is it not, useful, in case Judge Dread comes our way?

 

[Solipsis]

Solistus, I think you will be fine that way. I only put mine in a closed vial with a dessicant and put that in the freezer. What I said about metal turnings or shavings is general theory not used by me, especially not sine 4-AcO-DMT doesn't sound half as instable as 4-HO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT and 4-HO-MET.

Xwinorb, it's best to consider anyway that objects that are colder than ambient temperature attract water condensation. Not necessarily seen as droplets but your product can certainly get wet if you don't allow it to return to ambient temperature.
I always wait a while before opening my vials because following theory has always worked perfectly for me and seems better than following your own cocky suspicions (no offense). I probably also am blessed with well synthed compounds as pretty stable salts...
Although lately I got smelly AMT, some 5-MeO-DiPT and 4-AcO-MiPT that are supposedly freebases. Haven't checked out their appearance because I don't wish to expose my chemicals if there is no need to. I should probably stick this in the freezer as well, which I will when I stick a vial back in there that is now out to weigh something.

Sucks that you have to thaw everything if you stick them in the same 'vial', I need to get some more of them. I use mini mason jars like this:

Probably not the very best option but easily available to me.

Besides, I like having all the same mini jars / vials for building my sample collection. Yes I am in the strange habit of collecting and planning on exhibiting these things.