St Johns Wort and MDMA neuroprotection

[MeDieViL]

these are all signs of serotonin depletion (at least Im pretty sure thats what your articles say) and while you experience a depletion in baseline serotonin after you do the drug (thats the NATURE of the drug) it was shown through the imaging technique PET (positron emission tomography) that after 20 weeks of discontinued MDMA use serotonin values ( and the associated axons) were recovering. That is why so many people who take MDMA wait like 4 months until doing it again. You can weather this by looking for good stuff in what you eat or taking some amino acid supplements.

Serotonine depletion isnt the nature of the drug at all, its actually a sign of neurotoxiticy, and its something they look for when checking wheter a drug is neurotoxic or not.

Source that axons are recovering after 20 weeks?

 

[chantho]

Serotonine depletion isnt the nature of the drug at all, its actually a sign of neurotoxiticy, and its something they look for when checking wheter a drug is neurotoxic or not.

Source that axons are recovering after 20 weeks?

what i meant by the nature of the drug was: imagine a dam right? open the dam, flash flood, then a slow trickle (the last phase being analogous to the depletion and the water to the serotonin).

sorry bout the no quote just off the top of my head, looks like i was wrong and the recovery time is a bit more considerable (12 months actually) heres the quote for that:
"Time Course of Regeneration of 5-HT Uptake Sites:
...At the 6 month time point, the density of 5-HT uptake sites was only 75% of the values of saline-treated controls whereas by 12 months after MDMA treatment the density of 5-HT uptake sites returned to control levels."
MDMA-Induced Neurotoxicity
Parameters of Degeneration and
Recovery of Brain, Serotonin Neurons

GEORGE BATTAGLIA, S. Y. YEH AND ERROL B. DE SOUZA'

Neuroscience Branch, Addiction Research Center


and something very interesting i just found, a study that shows perhaps low level doses of MDMA will prevent 5-HT damage. whaaat?! heres the article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555677

Brain Res. 2009 Aug 25;1286:32-41. Epub 2009 Jun 23.
Repeated exposure to MDMA provides neuroprotection against subsequent MDMA-induced serotonin depletion in brain.

Bhide NS, Lipton JW, Cunningham JI, Yamamoto BK, Gudelsky GA.

College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH 45267, USA.

National Institute on Drug Abuse, Baltimore, MD 21224

sorry for the confusion :D

 

[MeDieViL]

Dude, i know what serotonine depletion is:D.

Regular MDMA users have 5% less serotonine then controls, and serotonine depletion is a marker of neurotoxiticy in rodents, so your wrong that its the nature of the drug.

Will write a better reply tomorrow.

 

[thelearner]

What about going for the full monty and doing all three (MAO-B, Anti-oxidant, SSRI)?

For example:

2 Hours Before MDMA:
----------------------------
2.5mg Selegeline sublingually (on full stomach w/ fatty food)
8g Vitamin C (sodium ascorbate)
1000mg NAC
200mg Ubiquinol (CoQ10)
ALA
ALC
7g Omega-3

2 hours later: take 1.5 pills (approx 150-200mg MDMA)
Then, 4 hours after MDMA, take 20mg Prozac

I have done this, without the Prozac (it's sitting in my drawer), with success and felt MUCH better the week following than previous rolls. I was also able to drop dosage WAY down over the course of a LOOOOOONG evening to maintain the roll. Took 2 pills from 9pm until 2am, then 1 more at 3:30 which wore off at around 7:30am. Normally to go for that long would have taken 5+ (I know, I know, excessive) and I would have been stimmed to hell and back, just cracked the fuck OUT at the end. So the Selegeline encourages a reduction in dose that's very nice.

This is the week after (tried this on last Saturday), and despite a 2.5yr relationship ending this week, I feel, well, pretty darn good. Mood is good (despite random crying fits due to breakup) and I'm motivated, optimistic, etc. The only negative was some VERY mild paranoia toward the end of the evening 5-7am, and it could just have been that I had crashed a private party (sorta) and they didn't want another swingin' dick trying to swoop the girls.

So, I'm wondering if I wanted to add an additional layer of protection, could I take Prozac at +4h in combination with everything else I listed above? Are there any safety concerns with these 3 substances in combination?

 

[Montecarlonos]

So, I'm wondering if I wanted to add an additional layer of protection, could I take Prozac at +4h in combination with everything else I listed above? Are there any safety concerns with these 3 substances in combination?

I would drop the Selegeline and just use the prozac. It's surprising how effective SSRIs are at reducing the hangover.

 

[thelearner]

I would drop the Selegeline and just use the prozac. It's surprising how effective SSRIs are at reducing the hangover.

Well, to me, the Selegeline has a couple of distinct advantages:

1. It potentiates the roll quite nicely, reducing MDMA consumption overall, saving money and reducing load on the body of eliminating it. Less MDMA consumed is always better.

2. It provides neuroprotection without a "time limit" -- in other words, with SSRI's there's a window of time that closes around the 4h mark and at that point your evening is over. As is often the case when rolling, evenings have a way of continuing themselves, and when this happens, at least for me, I have a strong tendency to throw caution to the wind and keep the night going.

Which means that I would often end up well past the 4h mark and the SSRI wouldn't work at all -- whereas the Selegeline would have afforded protection the whole time. The SSRI is a nice "backup" in my mind for evenings that DO end on time OR when combining other PEA drugs with MDMA and Selegeline isn't an option.

Would REALLY love to know if anyone here can identify safety risks of the Selegeline + MDMA + SSRI combo.

 

[Dr. Beat]

For a few years I tried lots of anti-oxidants while on MDMA pills, then a few years of taking SSRI's a few hours after taking MDMA pills, but I did not like the long-term effects of SSRI's, so then the next few years I took Selegiline with pills, but I felt the Deprenyl reduced the trippy-ness of the MDMA experience a bit, so after searching around for a while, I tried taking Memantine with pills and it is the best thing ever to reduce the come downs from MDMA pills. I have been doing this combo for the last 3 years, and it has allways worked well for me.

I just posted more about this in the thread about EGCG and MDMA if you want to know more about this.

 

[thelearner]

For a few years I tried lots of anti-oxidants while on MDMA pills, then a few years of taking SSRI's a few hours after taking MDMA pills, but I did not like the long-term effects of SSRI's, so then the next few years I took Selegiline with pills, but I felt the Deprenyl reduced the trippy-ness of the MDMA experience a bit, so after searching around for a while, I tried taking Memantine with pills and it is the best thing ever to reduce the come downs from MDMA pills. I have been doing this combo for the last 3 years, and it has allways worked well for me.

I just posted more about this in the thread about EGCG and MDMA if you want to know more about this.

How often are you rolling? Really want to know the degree of sustainability / frequency.

Man, some form of neuroprotection is SOOOOO important I just don't think I'm going to roll anymore without it, period. Took 2C-I at 27mg on Saturday followed by 1 roll 3-4 hours later, then another 2 hours later. Took my mega anti-oxidants before 2C-I, then took 20mg Fluoxetine 4 hours last pill, which was 2h too late for more or less full protection.

Feel like SHITHOLE today. Sad, demotivated, etc. even though it's a perfect day in SoCal and life is good. Whereas the weekend before I took 3 rolls total over 7 hours, same anti-oxidants, no 2C-I, and 2.5mg Selegeline 2h before rolls. Felt FINE during the week even though I was going through a breakup!

Maybe it's just back to back weeks of rolling, but I swear the Selegeline makes a HUGE difference.

 

[Dr. Beat]

Drugs that activate your trip receptors, like 2-CI and LSD make the damage and come down from MDMA much worse. Drugs that block 5-HT2 receptors decrease the damage and reduce the come down from MDMA.

and taking pills a week apart is never a good idea- space them out. I usually wait a month or more. But each to their own.

 

[thelearner]

Drugs that activate your trip receptors, like 2-CI and LSD make the damage and come down from MDMA much worse. Drugs that block 5-HT2 receptors decrease the damage and reduce the come down from MDMA.

and taking pills a week apart is never a good idea- space them out. I usually wait a month or more. But each to their own.

Trip receptors? Huh?

Yes, I'm aware that coadministration of certain psychedelics can exacerbate neurotoxicity of MDMA. Probably need to stick to MDMA only or MDMA + Tryptamines instead of MDMA + PEA's so I can not only take the Selegeline but also avoid the increased toxicity. Thanks for the reminder.

And I am DEFINITELY clear on weekly dosing being problematic. However, I hope that with the right cocktail / dosing / regimen to protect the brain, it may be possible to dose that frequently without long-term problems. The more research I do, the more agents and options I see available that are effective at preventing toxicity. Since I can't run a double-blind clinical trial, I only have myself to test with. Given what I know about MDMA, it's a risk I'm willing to take at the moment, though it is a risk.

 

[melange]

dude please do not take mdma fucking weekly

 

[thelearner]

dude please do not take mdma fucking weekly

Yeeeeeeaaahhhh...about that.

Went 4 weekends in a row. To be honest, I didn't feel THAT down all things considered (going through a 2.5yr relationship ending during this time). And I thoroughly enjoyed each experience, except the last, which just felt like a waste. Was pleasant but not much more, a pale shadow of previous experiences. Also a couple of 2C-I experiences in there, one the night before the 4th roll in 4 weeks. Could have had an impact, as I am CONVINCED 2C-I is a monamine releaser.

Anyway, I don't feel too down or anything, but I do feel...slow. Just, well, kinda dumb. I think 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off is the most one can pull off with the anti-neurotoxic regimen. Will take a couple weeks off and then see how that treats me.

Also, would welcome suggestions for alternative "social" drugs. Can't drink alcohol due to other health issues, and weed makes me anti-social. 2C-I is a bit over the top, and I think it's a monamine releaser.

Any other bright ideas for my once-weekly night on the town? Wouldn't mind getting a nice rotation going, maybe MDMA, LSD, Mescaline, Week Off, rinse, repeat. :D

 

[stormyweathers]

what do you mean monoamine releaser?

 

[MeDieViL]

Dude, i know what serotonine depletion is:D.

Regular MDMA users have 5% less serotonine then controls, and serotonine depletion is a marker of neurotoxiticy in rodents, so your wrong that its the nature of the drug.

Will write a better reply tomorrow.

Generally when a drug is being tested for neurotoxiticy they look at monoamine depletion, MDMA does deplete serotonine in rodents however adding in antioxidants prevent this from occuring (wich is why the autors conclude mdma has been protected from neurotoxiticy-

Also look up nichol's study's on selective serotonine releasers, they dont deplete serotonine and thus arent neurotoxic, when they combined it with a dopamine releasing agent it did cause long lasting serotonine depletion.

In short its not the nature of the drug, but neurotoxiticy that causes serotonine depletion, wheter that is relevant to us is unclear as we dont have an exact idea on mdma's toxiticy yet.