Several months ago I was diagnosed with social anxiety and mild depression and was put on 20mg paroxatine. I discontinued use after one month for several reasons, one being that I wanted to trip on mushrooms and i felt that my medication would inhibit that. I tripped a little over 2 weeks ago and I had an overall good trip, but last week i decided to go back on paroxatine because my anxiety had returned. After returning to the medication for one day, i started having visuals similar to those experienced on mushrooms, such as geometric patterns, morphing/melting objects and environment, etc. in combination with the typical onset side effects of paroxatine. I dont think that it has anything to do with HPPD, considering i didnt have these visuals before getting back on my medication. I'm going to stop taking it to see if the hallucinations go away, but i was wondering if anyone had an explanation for this?
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PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |
SSRI induced flashbacks?
- Thread starter Swankie
- Start date
Welcome to Bluelight!
What you recount does sound unusual. I am not here to tell you what you should or shouldn't call it, but IMO there is a very common misconception about flashbacks when people basically jump to that conclusion adding together psychedelia and a later episode bringing back up very similar effects.
Most specifically a flashback is reliving a particular event, not qualities that can be attributed to a kind of event or experience. A flashback can happen entirely without ever having used a drug, and they are set off by a trigger. There are several reasons why flashbacks are closely associated with psychedelics namely because psychedelics amplify how strongly experiences are emotionally charged and therefore may have potentially serious and even traumatic impact. The more emotionally charged or traumatic an event or experience is the stronger it is singed into our memory. Our long-term memory seems mostly constructed of associations and attributed emotional values.
We may recognize a specific association to direct us to and associate most of all with a certain charged or powerful memory; and if we are triggered by experiencing again exactly that associated stimulus, the rest of the memory may very well play before our mind's eye. I've experienced this, the trigger was a song which I listened to for the last time closely following the most powerful, jarring and life-changing experience of my life. There was about 6 months in between the experience and the flashback, and there was no question about it and what the flashback related to. Being reminded by something can be general and having a deja vu can remain confusing and vague, but a flashback is exact.
Maybe this fits your episode, or maybe not. If not, I am definitely not trying to say it is any less valid but just that there is a different mechanism and calling it a flashback might be inappropriate. If we must label things HPPD does not sound out of the question. Someone might argue that to qualify for true HPPD effects must persist independently, but having effects of one drug return by using another drug is a bit more common whatever we ought to call it. For example it is typical for unexpectedly strong psychedelic effects to occur when a person uses cannabis during a period of extraordinary sensitivity. Previous use of psychedelics may open a person up to various things, the fluctuations produced by the psychedelic experience can cause chronic disturbances or disruptions as manifested by something like HPPD. There can be relief from depression, overexcitability, and I think many more higher brain functions regulated by serotonin.
I don't think we fully understand the long-term effects of psychedelics at a neurological or pharmacological level, at least I am at this point not able to hypothesize a mechanism.
SSRI's tune your serotonergic system in a different way than is normal or natural, apparently in a way its coherence is more stabilised and balanced. If you continue use of SSRI's after having sent a sort of 'shiver' through your CNS via psychedelics - which I think has been suggested, thought or hypothesized to temporarily cause de-coherence, affecting how the brain's specialized circuits orchestrate their role and input/output - maybe there was some de-regulation by the psychedelics and if the SSRI suddenly tries to get a grip on it again I can imagine that there are some interactions reflecting that amplified or decreased coherence. It would explain effects fitting both sides of the story and it will probably just take a little time before you get used to the changes.
I think HPPD is just a manifestation of chronic decoherence which affects the processing of sensory information.
IMO this just goes to show that discontinuation like this is not without risk and being on or off meds like this produce different modalities.
I don't think waiting to see if the hallucinations go away will prove that much, though it is certainly not such a bad idea to want to compare and control your "baseline" again before proceeding. Of course I have no idea what dosage you are prescribed and what not, but slowly but steadily working your way up again seems smart. Maybe during the weekend so that you can see if this effect fades or grows. Make sure you are in a safe setting and that you go easy enough to make sorta sure you keep a grip and remain well in control despite sensorical disturbances.
Of course the absolute best thing would be if you have a professional and understanding therapist who is mainly interested in your well-being and who is capable and competent enough to help you through this. Neither I or other Bluelighters are meant to be substitutes for healthcare professionals and me trying to come up with an explanation is not something to rely on if you feel unstable.
I'm curious: do these effect feel like some unfamiliar weirdness regarding superficial disturbances or distortions while your state of mind and mood remain clear or even consolidated? Or do you feel strongly affected by it, feeling like you are out of it ?
What you recount does sound unusual. I am not here to tell you what you should or shouldn't call it, but IMO there is a very common misconception about flashbacks when people basically jump to that conclusion adding together psychedelia and a later episode bringing back up very similar effects.
Most specifically a flashback is reliving a particular event, not qualities that can be attributed to a kind of event or experience. A flashback can happen entirely without ever having used a drug, and they are set off by a trigger. There are several reasons why flashbacks are closely associated with psychedelics namely because psychedelics amplify how strongly experiences are emotionally charged and therefore may have potentially serious and even traumatic impact. The more emotionally charged or traumatic an event or experience is the stronger it is singed into our memory. Our long-term memory seems mostly constructed of associations and attributed emotional values.
We may recognize a specific association to direct us to and associate most of all with a certain charged or powerful memory; and if we are triggered by experiencing again exactly that associated stimulus, the rest of the memory may very well play before our mind's eye. I've experienced this, the trigger was a song which I listened to for the last time closely following the most powerful, jarring and life-changing experience of my life. There was about 6 months in between the experience and the flashback, and there was no question about it and what the flashback related to. Being reminded by something can be general and having a deja vu can remain confusing and vague, but a flashback is exact.
Maybe this fits your episode, or maybe not. If not, I am definitely not trying to say it is any less valid but just that there is a different mechanism and calling it a flashback might be inappropriate. If we must label things HPPD does not sound out of the question. Someone might argue that to qualify for true HPPD effects must persist independently, but having effects of one drug return by using another drug is a bit more common whatever we ought to call it. For example it is typical for unexpectedly strong psychedelic effects to occur when a person uses cannabis during a period of extraordinary sensitivity. Previous use of psychedelics may open a person up to various things, the fluctuations produced by the psychedelic experience can cause chronic disturbances or disruptions as manifested by something like HPPD. There can be relief from depression, overexcitability, and I think many more higher brain functions regulated by serotonin.
I don't think we fully understand the long-term effects of psychedelics at a neurological or pharmacological level, at least I am at this point not able to hypothesize a mechanism.
SSRI's tune your serotonergic system in a different way than is normal or natural, apparently in a way its coherence is more stabilised and balanced. If you continue use of SSRI's after having sent a sort of 'shiver' through your CNS via psychedelics - which I think has been suggested, thought or hypothesized to temporarily cause de-coherence, affecting how the brain's specialized circuits orchestrate their role and input/output - maybe there was some de-regulation by the psychedelics and if the SSRI suddenly tries to get a grip on it again I can imagine that there are some interactions reflecting that amplified or decreased coherence. It would explain effects fitting both sides of the story and it will probably just take a little time before you get used to the changes.
I think HPPD is just a manifestation of chronic decoherence which affects the processing of sensory information.
IMO this just goes to show that discontinuation like this is not without risk and being on or off meds like this produce different modalities.
I don't think waiting to see if the hallucinations go away will prove that much, though it is certainly not such a bad idea to want to compare and control your "baseline" again before proceeding. Of course I have no idea what dosage you are prescribed and what not, but slowly but steadily working your way up again seems smart. Maybe during the weekend so that you can see if this effect fades or grows. Make sure you are in a safe setting and that you go easy enough to make sorta sure you keep a grip and remain well in control despite sensorical disturbances.
Of course the absolute best thing would be if you have a professional and understanding therapist who is mainly interested in your well-being and who is capable and competent enough to help you through this. Neither I or other Bluelighters are meant to be substitutes for healthcare professionals and me trying to come up with an explanation is not something to rely on if you feel unstable.
I'm curious: do these effect feel like some unfamiliar weirdness regarding superficial disturbances or distortions while your state of mind and mood remain clear or even consolidated? Or do you feel strongly affected by it, feeling like you are out of it ?
Hey Solipsis!
I would first like to thank you for taking the time to construct such an informative and meaningful answer to my question, seeing as I am new to Bluelight and psychedelics. I hope that I can do the same for you, since you took a definitive interest in my problem.
I will admit to you that I have inappropriately catagorized my experience as being a flashback, and I appreciate your explanation which has helped me better understand the literal meaning of flashbacks. Like I said, I'm relatively new to these drugs and I have little to no understanding of their lasting effects, so I am grateful for the guidance.
I would like to preface this discussion by saying that I smoked a moderate amount cannabis on two separate days in the two week period between when I ingested the mushrooms and began taking medication again. This cannabis use, on both occasions, did NOT produce any hallucinogenic effects similar to those experienced during my trip. I bring this up because you used cannabis as an example when describing drug use triggering the effects of another (in this case, psychedelics). I wonder if this effect has a name, and also why the cannabis did not cause me to experience these psychedelic effects while the SSRI did. I'm assuming it has to do with the fact that psychedelics and SSRIs affect the same neurotransmitter/bonding sites in the brain, but what do I know, I'm a Greenlighter
.
Anyway, what confuses me is the fact that I experienced no HPPD-like effects for the full two weeks up until I began taking an SSRI again, regardless of whether I was sober or using cannabis. This is why I'm not sure if it actually is HPPD or some type of short-lived version of it induced by SSRI medication (I am hopeful for the latter).
You suggested that the deregulation caused by the psychedelics may be interacting with the SSRI, causing me to experience these odd effects. In your opinion, do you think that these effects are permanent or do you think they will decrease over time and/or with cessation of use of my SSRI medication? I know you suggested that I work my way up the dosage ladder again, but I am concerned for my perception in the permanent future, which is why I have decided to cease using SSRIs for good and look for an alternative to solving my anxiety problems. It may be therapy or a natural remedy, who knows. But after this experience, I'm not sure if I will ever be able to use this type of medication again. Considering I was able to go off of them the first time without any significant withdrawl symptoms, I am not worried since I have only been on them for roughly a week this time around. I can only hope that I have not developed permanent or semi-permanent HPPD from this interaction, but I guess only time will tell for me.
In response to your final question, I have never felt specifically "unstable" but I have been experiencing rather significant depersonalization/derealization since the first day I noticed my perception was altered (roughly four days ago). Therefore, I have been feeling "out of it" during this fiasco.
I look forward to your response and thank you for your assistance!
I would first like to thank you for taking the time to construct such an informative and meaningful answer to my question, seeing as I am new to Bluelight and psychedelics. I hope that I can do the same for you, since you took a definitive interest in my problem.
I will admit to you that I have inappropriately catagorized my experience as being a flashback, and I appreciate your explanation which has helped me better understand the literal meaning of flashbacks. Like I said, I'm relatively new to these drugs and I have little to no understanding of their lasting effects, so I am grateful for the guidance.
I would like to preface this discussion by saying that I smoked a moderate amount cannabis on two separate days in the two week period between when I ingested the mushrooms and began taking medication again. This cannabis use, on both occasions, did NOT produce any hallucinogenic effects similar to those experienced during my trip. I bring this up because you used cannabis as an example when describing drug use triggering the effects of another (in this case, psychedelics). I wonder if this effect has a name, and also why the cannabis did not cause me to experience these psychedelic effects while the SSRI did. I'm assuming it has to do with the fact that psychedelics and SSRIs affect the same neurotransmitter/bonding sites in the brain, but what do I know, I'm a Greenlighter
. Anyway, what confuses me is the fact that I experienced no HPPD-like effects for the full two weeks up until I began taking an SSRI again, regardless of whether I was sober or using cannabis. This is why I'm not sure if it actually is HPPD or some type of short-lived version of it induced by SSRI medication (I am hopeful for the latter).
You suggested that the deregulation caused by the psychedelics may be interacting with the SSRI, causing me to experience these odd effects. In your opinion, do you think that these effects are permanent or do you think they will decrease over time and/or with cessation of use of my SSRI medication? I know you suggested that I work my way up the dosage ladder again, but I am concerned for my perception in the permanent future, which is why I have decided to cease using SSRIs for good and look for an alternative to solving my anxiety problems. It may be therapy or a natural remedy, who knows. But after this experience, I'm not sure if I will ever be able to use this type of medication again. Considering I was able to go off of them the first time without any significant withdrawl symptoms, I am not worried since I have only been on them for roughly a week this time around. I can only hope that I have not developed permanent or semi-permanent HPPD from this interaction, but I guess only time will tell for me.
In response to your final question, I have never felt specifically "unstable" but I have been experiencing rather significant depersonalization/derealization since the first day I noticed my perception was altered (roughly four days ago). Therefore, I have been feeling "out of it" during this fiasco.
I look forward to your response and thank you for your assistance!
First of all my advice is: don't take any drugs like cannabis, empathogens or psychedelics for a while to give yourself a chance to level out.
Are you receiving counselling and therapy supporting that SSRI prescription? Can I take it you do not consider telling your therapist about this an option? It is one thing to hide having used mushrooms but discontinuation of AD's is something else. I don't know any of the background, I'm sure in some cases the SSRI prescription is not really an effective or appropriate treatment of depressive symptoms or anxiety, if there is additional psychodynamics and not clinical depression. But in other cases people stopping their meds can be pretty unsafe.
It is not my place to decide for you if it is more risky to keep discontinuing the SSRI or more risky to attempt taking it again with possible interactions. Also when I try to imagine some fitting explanation for you it it far too much unfounded speculation to base potentially important decisions on. Matters that really ought to be evaluated by a professional who is familiar with your background.
To me it seems like a lesser evil to tell your psychiatrist that you have stopped taking your medication due to side-effects surfacing that you find unacceptable and/or you are not really benefiting enough from it to justify continuing with it. Even if lying feels more wrong than not telling, your therapist is at least better prepared to handle what is going on with you.
I will say this though: starting up or stopping SSRI's but also other kinds of AD's takes a while for the brain to rewire to those changing modalities and this process can be edgy or even a bit dangerous (which is IMO illustrated by the fact that risk of suicide can temporarily increase before you get used to the effects and changes). It is not abnormal at all to take 2-3 or 4 weeks, a period during which some side-effects may appear and disappear before everything stabilizes. Of course some side-effects keep being produced when you stabilize again.
This is probably good news for you though it is still too difficult to really be able to know what to expect.
I think we probably don't understand HPPD and idiosyncratic interactions like this well enough to determine what is happening here, but maybe I just don't know a lot about it.
Still, it is best that do not worry too much about it and reassure yourself that permanent HPPD-type cases produced by SSRI's don't really seem to be heard of, it would have to be rare enough not to get picked up.
Not sure how effective the SSRI was for your anxiety and there are many forms of anxiety, but no maybe it is not ideal. But you should still confer with your psychiatrist IMO. Unfortunately a lot of anxiolytic drugs like benzo's are not really fit to take long term. I personally am helped by things like theanine and phenibut (I would recommend the former but would be careful recommending the latter) and also my very low dose mirtazapine helps a lot. Then again I didn't have crippling anxiety to begin with and my background and diagnosis are a bit different and I don't have to go into that now.
Good luck and be careful!
Are you receiving counselling and therapy supporting that SSRI prescription? Can I take it you do not consider telling your therapist about this an option? It is one thing to hide having used mushrooms but discontinuation of AD's is something else. I don't know any of the background, I'm sure in some cases the SSRI prescription is not really an effective or appropriate treatment of depressive symptoms or anxiety, if there is additional psychodynamics and not clinical depression. But in other cases people stopping their meds can be pretty unsafe.
It is not my place to decide for you if it is more risky to keep discontinuing the SSRI or more risky to attempt taking it again with possible interactions. Also when I try to imagine some fitting explanation for you it it far too much unfounded speculation to base potentially important decisions on. Matters that really ought to be evaluated by a professional who is familiar with your background.
To me it seems like a lesser evil to tell your psychiatrist that you have stopped taking your medication due to side-effects surfacing that you find unacceptable and/or you are not really benefiting enough from it to justify continuing with it. Even if lying feels more wrong than not telling, your therapist is at least better prepared to handle what is going on with you.
I will say this though: starting up or stopping SSRI's but also other kinds of AD's takes a while for the brain to rewire to those changing modalities and this process can be edgy or even a bit dangerous (which is IMO illustrated by the fact that risk of suicide can temporarily increase before you get used to the effects and changes). It is not abnormal at all to take 2-3 or 4 weeks, a period during which some side-effects may appear and disappear before everything stabilizes. Of course some side-effects keep being produced when you stabilize again.
This is probably good news for you though it is still too difficult to really be able to know what to expect.
I think we probably don't understand HPPD and idiosyncratic interactions like this well enough to determine what is happening here, but maybe I just don't know a lot about it.
Still, it is best that do not worry too much about it and reassure yourself that permanent HPPD-type cases produced by SSRI's don't really seem to be heard of, it would have to be rare enough not to get picked up.
Not sure how effective the SSRI was for your anxiety and there are many forms of anxiety, but no maybe it is not ideal. But you should still confer with your psychiatrist IMO. Unfortunately a lot of anxiolytic drugs like benzo's are not really fit to take long term. I personally am helped by things like theanine and phenibut (I would recommend the former but would be careful recommending the latter) and also my very low dose mirtazapine helps a lot. Then again I didn't have crippling anxiety to begin with and my background and diagnosis are a bit different and I don't have to go into that now.
Good luck and be careful!