Somniferum Tea, Potentiation and Extended Half-Lives

[Kenaz]

According to the figures I've seen, morphine has a half-life ranging from 1.5 to 4.5 hours: rxlist says "the accepted elimination half-life in normal subjects is 1.5 to 2 hours."
.

I (and many others who have experimented with PPT) have noted its extremely long duration: I've felt the effects of a decent dose of PPT for well over 24 hours. This suggests to me that there is Something Else going on here. I'm wondering if

* one or more substances contained within the pods interfere with the metabolism of morphine, thereby lengthening its elimination half-life?

* "poppy pod tea" isn't just a solution: it's a suspension of microscopic ground pod particles. When consumed, those pod particles are digested relatively slowly, thereby causing an extended/time release of morphine.

I'd like to know how much morphine is in an average serving of pod tea (the range of morphine content in 50-100 average servings would probably be more useful and easier to come by). I don't think it's an incredibly high quantity: if it were there I would expect to see a lot more reports of PPT-related deaths, ODs and hospitalizations. I've also heard many opiate-tolerant people say they could get little effect from PPT, or that it required an impractical amount of pod matter to get anything -- again, this suggests that we're not dealing with enormous amounts of morphine hitting the system at any given time.

Whatever the cause, it seems clear that there is something unusual going on here, and I'd love to figure out exactly what it is.

 

[Ham-milton]

I don't know about unusual. You have a massive collection of various psychoactive alkaloids that all act on the same receptor (at least in the same receptor grouping). There's bound to be a degree of synergism. Since some of that morphine is bound to be present as freebase (part of that microscopic ground pod particle soup), so that being converted to the hcl and then absorbed, probably slows it down.

The DEA came up with a figure of 1.5mg of morphine per pod. That's pretty useless, however. Adding the codeine, thebaine and trace alkaloid content, you probably have 4mg (at most) total per pod. What the fuck a pod is, I dunno. The pods they seized were pretty shitty, AFAI could tell. I'm referring to the dyed pods in the microgram (2002, maybe?).

I doubt pod tea gets much above 50mg of morphine per serving- however I did have a very kind friend (who always paid off his drug-oriented bets!) who used to take 4 cups of grounds per serving, 3 times daily, and when he switched to using oxycodone, he was able to take 3-400mg of oxycodone orally without any noticable high. Noticable to the outside observer, anyway- I doubt he didn't feel anything.

I'm inclined to believe that he also took pills on top of his tea, though.

 

[Acyl]

Ive been told that meconic acid plays a role in the effects.

I dont know how it does, or would.

 

[Kenaz]

I don't know about unusual. You have a massive collection of various psychoactive alkaloids that all act on the same receptor (at least in the same receptor grouping). There's bound to be a degree of synergism. Since some of that morphine is bound to be present as freebase (part of that microscopic ground pod particle soup), so that being converted to the hcl and then absorbed, probably slows it down.

What I'd like to find out is precisely which alkaloid or combo of alkaloids is responsible for the synergism. I'd also like to find out what role the ground pod soup plays: it would be interesting to compare the potency/duration of pod tea run through a micron filter through pod tea made with a simple coffee filter, for instance.

The DEA came up with a figure of 1.5mg of morphine per pod. That's pretty useless, however. Adding the codeine, thebaine and trace alkaloid content, you probably have 4mg (at most) total per pod. What the fuck a pod is, I dunno. The pods they seized were pretty shitty, AFAI could tell. I'm referring to the dyed pods in the microgram (2002, maybe?).

One source says Four opium poppy capsules, without seeds, which had already been used for opium production by lancing were analysed for their morphine content using a spectrophotometric method. The capsules were found to contain between 0.15 to 0.34 per cent of morphine.

Yet another says, The average content (of morphine in pods) varies considerably - i.e., from 0.15% to 0.39%. The extraction degree is 40-50%, and the capsules have a very marked swelling and absorptive capacity. An aqueous decoction of 50 g of poppy capsules, for example, corresponding to a volume of roughly 600 cc of the broken capsules, with 1,000 cc of acidified water, would give no more than about 600 cc of filtrate, which would contain roughly a quarter, or 0.035 g (35mg), of the morphine contained in the capsules used.

In the case of the Poppy Seed Tea death, tea made using the recipe used by the decedent (3 lbs. of seeds soaked in warm water with lemon juice) was found to contain 259 micrograms of morphine per ml -- so a big cup would contain over 60mg of morphinated goodness. That's definitely enough to send an opiate-naive person to the land of nod -- but I'd love to compare and contrast how that same person would react to a 60mg IR tablet of morphine. I have a feeling he would be a LOT more fucked up to start, but would sober up more quickly than if he had taken the pod tea -- but I haven't had a chance to experiment and find out.

I generally use a rough estimate of .2% - IOW, I assume the 20g of pod material has about 40mg of morphine, and assume that I'm extracting 20-30mg of that. That dose will leave me feeling very nice for 8 hours and pin-eyed and constipated for a good 16 after that.

I doubt pod tea gets much above 50mg of morphine per serving- however I did have a very kind friend (who always paid off his drug-oriented bets!) who used to take 4 cups of grounds per serving, 3 times daily, and when he switched to using oxycodone, he was able to take 3-400mg of oxycodone orally without any noticable high. Noticable to the outside observer, anyway- I doubt he didn't feel anything.

I'm inclined to believe that he also took pills on top of his tea, though.

12 cups of grounds DAILY?!?!?! Did the man ever defecate or eat anything besides pod grounds? If he was consuming the grounds, he was getting pretty much all the alkaloids out of the pod, so divide that by 500 and you'll have a guesstimate of how much morphine he was consuming. He obviously had built up a tolerance -- and never mind a cast-iron stomach, he had guts of depleted uranium!

 

[Ham-milton]

No, he didn't eat the grounds, he made tea out of them. I don't think that matters a whole lot. It was actually pretty gross to watch. He'd make up two or three days worth of tea at a time, use a funnel to put it into a milk jug or two and go from there.

I think that Acyl is right, too. Meconic acid is a known sedative (I can't find the structure, though- anyone?) and I'm certain it adds to the effects. I don't know much about it, though. No idea if it's a mu agonist or gaba-ergic or antihistamine or whatever else might cause sedation and potentiation. Wikipedia doesn't even have a page for it.

 

[Acyl]

known sedative, really?

The structure was posted in a thread a day or two ago.. I think you posted in that one also. Its a pyrone structure with some carboxylic acids ... Im not so great at naming yet, but this is the name listed for it under the Merck entry for "meconic acid" : 3-Hydroxy-4-oxo-4H-pyran-2,6-dicarboxylic acid

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

Meconic acid i do not think is active in and of itself but it will in forming salt conjugates in opium with the known active alkaloids express an effect on their pharmacodynamics and indeed may increase half life and other parameters

 

[Acyl]

How could that be possible? After youve ingested the tea, the meconic acid would protonate and the anion would pretty much be replaced by a chloride from the hydrochloric acid in the stomach. It wouldnt remain as the meconic acid salt for long, would it?

Even if it did, once it hits the intestine.. wouldnt you just be left with the conjugate base of meconic acid and a neutral opiate molecule? How would that work? Could it complex in a way (morphines phenolic hydrogen?) that keeps the structures together?

Im having a hard time understanding how a specific salt can affect the pharmacology of a compound. Can you explain it a bit more?

 

[Ham-milton]

C7H4O7, 3H2O = 254.08.

Meconic acid, HC7H3O7, 3H2O, is obtained from opium. It occurs in almost colourless crystals. The aqueous solution is acid in reaction, and gives a red colour with ferric chloride, the colour not being discharged by hydrochloric acid, nor by mercuric chloride (distinction from thiocyanate). It should be free from alkaloids.

Slightly soluble in water, readily soluble in alcohol.

Action and Uses.—Meconic acid has been described as a mild narcotic, but it has little or no physiological action, and is not now used medicinally. Its chemical reactions are of importance in toxicology as a valuable indication of the presence of opium.

The British Pharmaceutical Codex, 1911, was published by direction of the Council of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain.

Of course, that's from 1911, so perhaps they were wrong?

But I'm fairly sure it's active.

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

certain salts and esters indeed survive digestion and have impact on the metabolism and pharmacokinetics of the base substrate, many time greatly potentiating them

i have done a lot of research in this area and have a slew of first hand results

 

[Acyl]

Interesting, can you point me to any journals or anything related to salts affecting pharmacology?

Doesnt need to necessarily be opiates.