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Some news on the NMDA front - snorted memantine is different, but why?

dopamimetic

dopamimetic

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Mar 21, 2013
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I really only did this by accident of old habit, that I insufflated memantine (had the luck to acquire some pharm grade) instead of taking it orally or sublingually. Oh, the weird taste might have had something to do with it. Has a bad but transient burn and think(?) it's not caustic or causing real tissue damage as sublingual is painless too.... and the effects really surprised me. It's different, but almost as warm & fluffy as 2f-dck. Lasts for pretty long too, but no real dissociation, no cognitive impairment at all at at least 40mg yesterday and today.

Why is it so different? Please don't say placebo, unfortunately it wasn't really scientific isolated and logged experiment but I am very sure about this. I know this sort of feeling, only ever had this in the good times with some of the dissociatives and, a bit different, with 4,4'-dmar. Brings me to the question, do we in the end have more variables than one (I) would think? That the speed of onset might be very relevant for the overall effects and nor limited to the first minutes of an experience? Would explain what opioid users tell, but more as NMDA is afaik not your 0815 receptor and more directly intertwined with deep mind logic(?). Yeah, that fast-hitting ones are more clear, more active. Would comply with that oral 2F-dck was nothing worth to mention, only had the negatives almost.

I know we have low- and high-trapping NMDA antagonists. We have un-, non and competitive ones, we have ones with differing half lifes etc. and imho the main point was that high trapping ones are said to be too psychotomimetic, so both interesting as recreationals and ruled out as medicines. But what if we have different kinds of "recreationalism"? Also, if different people react differently to the same chems? Like some getting real psychotic symptoms while other don't. For me this has changed with tolerance, of course I am still worrying about psychosis, damage etc. but it is strange to read that some people get this with their very first take on dissociatives. Never ever had twisted/multiple thoughts or voices with DXM either.

These can stay away forever, but the cozy cuddly feelings and relaxation I miss soo bad.. that it makes me try things like snorting memantine.. (don't worry, I am more or less abstinent from RCs now)

Also this can be understood as a definitive warning. The good parts, the magic of dissociatives will fade and get lost with over-use, leaving one back as an empty, addicted shell. Reason- and senseless fear and tension instead of joy.
 
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Memantine's a weird one...yeah, it binds to the same NMDA site as ket, pcp, etc., but WAY more weakly. However, it additionally interacts with the receptor complex in another way, partially blocking calcium ions from the ion channel, like Mg+ but far more potently. And then you have a lot of auxiliary activities, many significant, eg, nicotinic AcH receptor antagonism, d2 dopaminergic agonism, sigma activity (like a buncha other random things, lol). Ketamine is a lot more selective for NMDA. And then yeah, you have duration and potency.

All this said, my adventurous friend has taken doses between 100-300 mg with classic dissociative results (confusion fully included!), but lasting 2-3 days. . .
 
Am I the adventurous friend? That sounds like what I do :)

I found that anywhere from 100mg to 400mg of memantine taken orally can produce a nice long lasting dissociative/euphoric state. "Diet Ibogaine"?
 
Yesterday I accidentally hit the threshold of real dissociation, it brought back the psychotomimetic symptoms I unfortunately get from time to time since I over-did the dissos (shit, yeah, learned the hard way. Things remained the same for so long and during so much material, then add in some excessive stress and a bad batch, and boom the ceiling and fan speak to you. Thankfully it's transient and I always know what's real and what not. Unfortunately, anti-psychotics do worsen it, all but olanzapine. Docs don't believe me of course.)

... but it felt different, in a good way. All over, it is a warm and somewhat cozy substance imho, it didn't have any of the darkness of the arylcyclohexylamine psychotomimesis. Twisted thoughts remained random, I could listen to them or focus on the noise where the brain synths them out of, silencing them. Somehow an interesting insight in how these things work.

I sleep very good since I am taking memantine, before I didn't and had violent nightmares every second day I'd wake up screaming or otherwise disturbed. Now I wake up refreshed, but unfortunately the stimulating base effect is completely gone today, I'm not sure but it appears to be similar to what I thought of the arylcyclohexylamines, that they primarily have two plateaus - sometimes I refer to that old DXM FAQ as it's the only(?) easily comprehensible paper about these things and much of it applies in general to dissociatives; there I'd say plateau 1-2 (or more concrete, 1 and lower 2nd maybe) are what I think of being pre-dissociative. With taking more, you cross the dissociative threshold and psychotomimetic symptoms begin. Strangely for a very long time, I did not get them at all, regardless of dose, while apparently some healthy volunteers get such symptoms from just a good ket dose (? or am I wrong and it's only relieably inducing voices in people with underlying conditions?)

Now, when staying pre-dissociative, there comes a stimulating and anti-depressive afterglow. With the heavier experiences, I'd get a more or less pronounced hangover of lethargy, demotivation, tiredness etc. and when going too high, everything feels scattered inside the brain for some hours..

Also memantine appears to have (at least) two states: an active / stimulating one, and a cloudy, lethargic one. I guess that's about dopamine. For sure I like the first one more; and for sure it is the one that's harder to hit, and that's shorter lived. Mixes pretty well with 2-fluoroethylamphetamine.

But whoa, 400mg memantine are a truly heroic dose... is there a trip report somewhere?
 
I gave some to a friend because I couldn't use it at the time and he described a high dose as a combination of DXM and Ketamine with a long duration.
 
sekio said:
Am I the adventurous friend? That sounds like what I do :)

I found that anywhere from 100mg to 400mg of memantine taken orally can produce a nice long lasting dissociative/euphoric state. "Diet Ibogaine"?
Click to expand...

Ibogaine's a scattershot if I ever saw one. Don't know what's mostly to do with it's utility in addiction, but I'd imagine kappa opioid/5-Ht2a/NMDA to all be relevant.
 
To me you gave the answer in your assumptions. Maybe the speed of onset plays a big role in the effect of the drug on the brain's neuronal exchange. As with alcohol; one dose alcohol in the form of vodka drank in a shot will have different effects than drank in soda over a longer period of time. ;) And in my experience very concentrated shots (IV) had a much more intense high. It's probably due to the fact that in this case with NDRI like Ephylone, binding in high concentrations to a maximum of "ports" of a neuron without leaving time for the previous neuron to send out dopa to cleave to these ports more than usual due to the bigger release due to Ephylone exciting its releasing quota ( I hope I still make sense) might be key to the intensity of some highs caused by certain drugs, and I believe each drug has its optimal concentration(g/kg) at administration to the neurons / duration of this administration at that dosage to reach said dose. :) Edit: Rereading myself I might have said that differently but it's fathomable :p
 
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How do you guys sleep on high dosages of memantine? Apparently this stuff has sort of an exponential dose-response curve, 20mg being threshold and with 40-50mg the fun begins... but it will keep me up for the next night, no chance for sleep at all and can only imagine what like 150mg would do to one..

The opioid potentiation is real by the way and absolutely beyond expectations. I was on 200mg morphine before for at least 18 months, struggling to get and stay off, various attempts ended up with the usual puking, shitting etc.pp. and heavy agitated lethargic depression ... but now with memantine, it cuts things down to 10% or so and I wonder what the reality is about that. Once they say dissociatives moduate mu receptors and counteract tolerance and depression directly, then again they talk about potentiation and that's what I really get.

Without any morphine, I will get lethargic, sweaty and runny nose etc.. just in comparatively low strength and without that horrible mindset. But taking just like 15mg morphine retard feels like a whole 200mg capsule, just wayy more clean and more stimulating. Its hard to tell right now whether its the memantine or the morphine keeping me up, as both compounds showed their ability to do so in the past. Recently I read about excitatory opioid activity, another theory of mine that appears to fit - I'll search and post the paper later..

But does this mean my tolerance will stay at the same level and when removing the memantine I'll get a full blown withdrawal, or does the brain readjust nevertheless and after some weeks I would be left with minimal tolerance?
 
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I'd think once you drop the morphine, you'll be OK. After all memantine is not an opioid, and cannot make more morphine appear out of nowhere.

I can't remember having any sleep problems when I was doing silly amounts of memantine. I remember that I would dose between 100 and 300mg orally and it'd give a very pleasant, long-lasting baseline dissociative buzz. Sort of like a ketamine afterglow. Only dosed once a day 'cause it lasted so long.

I called it "iboga lite", IIRC.
 
I've seen memantine and or agmatine used in conjunction to reduce tolerance to opioids. I have personally used it to help keep my kratom tolerance in check. I know kratom is not a traditional opioid, but it acts similarly on the same NMDA receptors.

By taking agmatine sporadically without a particular schedule in mind, I find it very useful as it keeps all the great opioid effects around when they have long since vanished. That is to say that I take it a few days out of the week and kratom has a decrease in effects on the days that I take it, but the next day the effects are much stronger from kratom when agmatine is not taken. If that makes sense lol

"The principal mechanism of action of memantine is believed to be the blockade of current flow through channels of N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptors — a glutamate receptor subfamily broadly involved in brain function. Surprisingly, other drugs that block NMDA receptor channels, such as ketamine, exhibit serious deleterious effects."

www.sciencedirect.com

Mechanism of action of memantine

Memantine is a clinically useful drug in many neurological disorders, including Alzheimer's disease. The principal mechanism of action of memantine is…
www.sciencedirect.com www.sciencedirect.com

The thing I find most interesting is that this receptor system can be responsible for the action of so many different substances while eliciting so many different effects on the body and mind.
 
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Apparently it isn't really tolerance reduction but direct modulation between NMDAR and MOR resulting in slowed down tolerance development, and/or potentiation but the usage for reducing tolerance / ceasing opioids is limited and this will be why all these seemingly amazed methods aren't really used in practice :( also why I always failed to get off morphine by using dissociatives (psychotomimesis began always way too early) and why I only developed addiction after I stopped using opioids only alongside dissociatives ... or am I wrong and need to wait some more time?

But today I woke up in somewhat accelerated withdrawal, felt worse than when I took the whole 200mgs too late in the day, and it was just maybe 10-15mgs the last 3 days. So something is off.. 40mg+(of memantine seem to be whats required to catch the tolerance induced by 200mg morphine XR. If I go lower, I'll get physical withdrawal.

Direct association of Mu-opioid and NMDA glutamate receptors supports their cross-regulation: molecular implications for opioid tolerance.

This means that using opioids will increase NMDA receptor density, doesn't it? Or only a certain sub-unit of them, which would more accurately explain the tolerance pattern I experienced. Just strange that opioids actually increase dissociative psychotomimesis in me. True, I do tolerate more hefty dosages now but overall I could push the dissociation safely much further w/o opioids.

Oh, amphetamine helps much. Gives the missed energy and the rebound/hangover takes away all that nasty norepinephrine from withdrawal. Just that there's little left of it.
 
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@karrotx, would you mind providing the full text of that paper about memantine? I don't manage to get anymore than that short abstract where they want you to buy.

Other than that, just want to add that I was wrong, its a matter of dosage. For my 200(400)mg habit of morphine, I require a hefty 80mg dose of memantine to catch all the symptoms and finally feel some energy again. Guess every day 80mg would be too much but maybe 80-60-80mg?

Guess clonidine would be a good aid too, to sleep over the worst stages but with enough memantine nobody would notice anything bad, they'd even think you're having a good day (means, this could make a detox-at-home procedure where people could remain to go to work). Granted, I took some benzos alongside, and not exactly few.. today were 6mg clonazepam to take the edge off. Clondine should do similar though.
 
Oh, Ive changes my mind. It was a mistake to continue take morphine alongside the memantine, even in very low doses. Am now in day three or so without any opioid, 60-100mg memantine, no dissociation to speak of, only w/d symptom is diarrhea where I probably could use loperamide but it's painless, finally feel my long missed energy coming back, the lethargy and sedation are lifting and somehow I feel good. It's not exactly easy mentally though, but overall positive. Can only recommend to withdraw with "silly doses of memantine". Guess its a different Level than using suboxone or stuff alike, you'll ne opioid free and it's painless...
 
Fuck that tolerance. Becomes expensive. 140mg memantine and no dissociation to speak of. Feels good though, lots of dopamine (strangely? in a relaxed way, nothing like the compulsive horny mess some dopa agonists must put you in) Very very little trippy with eyes closed.

So opioid tolerance = dissociative tolerance?? More or less.
 
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All the anecdotes about all the experiences here makes me believe that's exactly what's happening. I suspected it for awhile just like everyone else not sure what the mechanism of action is exactly.
 
So opioid tolerance = dissociative tolerance?? More or less.
Click to expand...

This isn't true, a good friend of mine was a long time IV fentanyl/heroin user, when I introduced him to PCP and analogues he needed very little - 10mg of 3-MeO-PCE was more than enough to produce an effect.

I was the opposite, I'd do huge doses of 3-MeO-PCE but could be satisfied with very small fractions of what my friend would use as a recreational dose.

IMHO dissociatives are everything that opioids should have been. Better euphoriant, safer in OD, withdrawal is much easier, way better painkiller etc.
 
IMHO dissociatives are everything that opioids should have been. Better euphoriant, safer in OD, withdrawal is much easier, way better painkiller etc.
Click to expand...
Yeah for me they are and opioids faild in many senses other than being exceeedingly addictive ...

Granted, disso tolerance isnt one to one opioid tolerance.
 
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