Some ACTUAL harm minimisation via speculation

[MobiusDick]

When you look at thiophene rings of sufentanil and the oxo-1,4-dihydrotetrazol ring of alfentanil, you realize that there is not always the appearance of a geometric match because of differences in molecular size, unshared electron pairs and steric hindrance, for something to fit in a receptor or, reuptake or vesicular transporter which typically binds a phenyl group.

It would be interesting to try to put a methylenedioxy ring on molecules similar to these and the N-methyl isopropylamine in an analogous position as 3,4 in MDMA to see what you have.

I suppose seeing if these two types of group can make a methamphetamine analogue might be the first step.

Also, although I realize that morpholine and piperidine or piperazine are different because of unshared electrons, these molecules in place of piperidine might be interesting too when producing analogues.

MobiusDick

MobiusDick

 

[Reminisant B]

^This post was intended as a discussion as to the ingredients in LU doves.

Seems to have been side tracked a bit.

Ketones + binders - that's all that was listed.

I am now tending towards the idea of bk-mdXX with alpha-PPP. [Still speculation]

 

[vecktor]

^This post was intended as a discussion as to the ingredients in LU doves.

Seems to have been side tracked a bit.

Ketones + binders - that's all that was listed.

I am now tending towards the idea of bk-mdXX with alpha-PPP. [Still speculation]

what gave you the idea that the ingredient list for these doves or whatever is anything but a work of fiction?
I know for a fact it is for spice and spice gold. so just because the ingredients list says ketones then there is no reason whatsoever to think they do in fact contain ketones.
GC-MS it.

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

though for some reason they may have accurately noted ketones as a vague nod to ingredients that are the actives they are desiring to be kept secret, since it actually is in no way legal (not a full violation of "scheduling laws", but still not legal in the least) this really as well does not have to be at all accurate as it would make no legal differenece if it was or was not in any way

mad scientist below seemed to be pretty assured in what he noted, though he did not explain how this info was derived

 

[Reminisant B]

GC-MS it.

If only. Someone with access should definately GC-MS them.

You are correct there is no reason to assume what they contain are ketones other than that's all the information to go on.

That was the intention of this post, to get past the complete lack of harm minimisation of selling legal pills without any knowledge of the ingredients. Speculation is better than nothing at this point - that's my view. [although this thread has got a bit mangled in the process]

 

[Reminisant B]

It's also possible that if the original london underground dove pills contained BZP and the new ones STILL contain BZP [unlike their new range] then that's possibly the reason for selling them as plant food.

As I remember reading somewhere that BZP is still quasi-legal if sold as such. [By this I mean the MHRA won't have as good a case as they had for PEP pills which were being sold for human consumption - hence a medicine]

...and maybe even MBZP just so they can accurately claim they are "BZP FREE"

Still whether this is pure ignorance I have a tendancy to believe retailers statements of they are free from BZP/TFMPP, methylone and ethylone.

Which for me points to something like alpha-PPP & bk-MBDB. [Possibly highly misguided speculation but as has been mentioned someone needs to GC/MS these]

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

also i believe those involved with these enterprises try to promote in some fashion it is safer for the "community" however if they purvey goods that the consumer can not make an informed decision on knowing the contents that would not seem to be at all so

you can't sell something as plant food and then have all your customers be legal high shops who also are actively priomoting them as ...legal highs

all you add is a fraud charge

puhhhleeazze....not clever at all

if the powers that be decide they want to go there they will have no problem making the case...my take...just a matter of time

 

[vecktor]

When you look at thiophene rings of sufentanil and the oxo-1,4-dihydrotetrazol ring of alfentanil, you realize that there is not always the appearance of a geometric match because of differences in molecular size, unshared electron pairs and steric hindrance, for something to fit in a receptor or, reuptake or vesicular transporter which typically binds a phenyl group.

It would be interesting to try to put a methylenedioxy ring on molecules similar to these and the N-methyl isopropylamine in an analogous position as 3,4 in MDMA to see what you have.

I suppose seeing if these two types of group can make a methamphetamine analogue might be the first step.

Also, although I realize that morpholine and piperidine or piperazine are different because of unshared electrons, these molecules in place of piperidine might be interesting too when producing analogues.

MobiusDick

MobiusDick

with sufentanil and alfentanil I bear in mind that these groups may be less as bioisosteres of phenyl more as isosteres of carboxylic acid esters a la remifentanil.
The tetrazole and substituted tetrazole moety is commonly regraded as a non classical isostere of the carboxylic acid or ester moety. as are some of the isoxazoles and oxazoles.
'thienyl amphetamine' is known and is not as active as the rat testing would seem to suggest, if anyone still knows where the Russian language ex hive forum is nowadays the info is there. So this doesn't bode too well for the thienyl MDMA analogue, if indeed it could be made.
I suppose this thread hijack should be moved into its own thread, but I'm too lazy to do it at the moment..

V

 

[mad_scientist]

though for some reason they may have accurately noted ketones as a vague nod to ingredients that are the actives they are desiring to be kept secret, since it actually is in no way legal (not a full violation of "scheduling laws", but still not legal in the least) this really as well does not have to be at all accurate as it would make no legal differenece if it was or was not in any way

mad scientist below seemed to be pretty assured in what he noted, though he did not explain how this info was derived

I used to work for a party pills company in NZ, and when the competitors came out with a new pill that seemed to be selling well we would send one off to the government drug testing lab to see what was in it.

We had an arrangement with the drug lab relating to testing street ecstasy pills for harm minimisation purposes, and I figured that selling "legal high pills" without the ingredients listed is pretty much just as dodgy as selling street ecstasy pills, so we got them tested too.

I would note that our company always printed the ingredients on our pill packets (which meant that the competitors ripped off all our new products and put out copycat versions within a month of our one being released, but not much you can do about that).

Also though I would note that there were more than one batch of white doves that went around even in the time I was in the industry, with completely different ingredients, so looks like LU just keeps on changing the ingredients but keeping the same colour, size and press on the pills. So just because the ones I had tested back in mid-2006 contained bk-MBDB and TFMPP, that doesn't mean the new ones have the same ingredients at all.

 

[MobiusDick]

I have not heard of LU Doves. Can some one enlighten me. If it is available in the US, I can do a GC/MS on it (and no I don't want someone to mail me some if it is only available elsewhere. I do enough questionable things that mailing things that are contraband in the US scares me.)

MobiusDick

 

[MobiusDick]

with sufentanil and alfentanil I bear in mind that these groups may be less as bioisosteres of phenyl more as isosteres of carboxylic acid esters a la remifentanil.
The tetrazole and substituted tetrazole moety is commonly regraded as a non classical isostere of the carboxylic acid or ester moety. as are some of the isoxazoles and oxazoles.
'thienyl amphetamine' is known and is not as active as the rat testing would seem to suggest, if anyone still knows where the Russian language ex hive forum is nowadays the info is there. So this doesn't bode too well for the thienyl MDMA analogue, if indeed it could be made.
I suppose this thread hijack should be moved into its own thread, but I'm too lazy to do it at the moment..

V

Interesting, I did not realize that. I know that resulting compounds that are made from substituting these heterocyclic groups with allyl, propargyl or methyl-cyclopropyl groups do not putatively have opioidergic agonist activity, so (not being a medicinal chemist) I made an inductive leap. I want to know more about this as I work on the pharmacology/mechanism of action of propionanilides, do you have some references or articles that you recommend on this topic? I know that some of the most potent analogues ever made by Chinese chemists have substituted an acetamide or a propamide group for the propanone on the tertiary Nitrogen, which to me is interesting for some reasons related to my research that I am not able to discuss on public forum.

Some of the medicinal chemists I work with probably should have told me this as I have discussed this issue several times with them. Are you involved in research or are you a self-taught aficionado (if you don't mind my asking)?

Mobi

 

[hugo24]

But I thought the Pyrrolidinopropiophenon to be a rather shitty stimulant,if at all?

 

[hotzenplotz]

these pills are quite long lasting, no wink of sleep until 20 hours later with just one pill. Many people have reported that. I don´t assume that it contains something like desoxypipradol, coz after overdoing it a fair bit sleep was still no problem at the end of the weekend.

The lu doves start out with a mellow and nice feeling for 2 hours( maybe one of the bk-mdxx) and then turn into something speedy.

Snorting these pills, which is usually not recommended because of pill fillers results in a shorter and less stimulating turn, but still about 10 hours of wakefullness

If there is some of their d.o.m.s in these pills that only work through the stomach lining, snorting shouldn´t work or at least lead to much shorter effects? Which wasn´t the case.

 

[Reminisant B]

..bit of a far fetched idea but what about the beta-ketone of methyl-DOM.

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=9441 [methyl-DOM]

^ showed seemingly stimulant activity that lasted for a long time. Seeing as the N-methyl is there it would make a stable cathinone analogue [?]

D.O.M.S would therefore have direct meaning. (possibly even meaning "DOM - substituted")

Like I say though possibly a bit far fetched! Still a technical possibility

 

[hotzenplotz]

read on the nz page of the company, who released these

Warning
UNFORTUNATLY THIS PRODUCT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO NEW ZEALAND OR AUSTRALIAN CUSTOMERS.

So something in this "plant feeders" causes legal issues in nz and australia.
Maybe the speculation goes back to some bk-mdxx?
Still think can´t be on it´s own, must be mixed with some stimulant, because of the long lasting insomnia.

 

[filmon]

BZP has been scheduled very recently in NZ. It's not due to become technically illegal for a few months yet, but shops have pulled them from the shelves.

Not sure if that would provide the legal implication you're looking for some context?

 

[hotzenplotz]

first batch of these party pills contained bzp/tfmpp and ethylone.
This new ones are bzp free coz they are sold at the eu market, were bzp might be banned soon too and the us too, were bzp has been banned for years. The company also said it doesen´t contain ethylone anymore.
It´s a guessing game, unless one sends a example of these pills to a test.
I thought bk-mdma was outlawed in nz, after the ease trials. Don´t know about Australia. And maybe there are many other substances that are banned in Auss and NZ, but not in the EU.

 

[MattPsy]

bk-MDMA hasn't been scheduled here in NZ. Nor has any prosecution gone ahead.
That said, I wouldn't recommend anyone do anything silly like import some. It'll get seized and you may be prosecuted (successfully or not, who knows, but it won't be worth the trouble at all!).

 

[phase_dancer]

If you've used any of the following Neorganics products: Neodoves, Sub Coca, SC2 or Spirits, please take the time to complete this short survey.

Although the LU doves have not been addressed in this present study, results of lab tests of the above Neorganics products will be released shortly in the Australian Drug Discussion thread Neo-doves 2.

 

[Ham-milton]

Neo-Doves have been tested by Stargate International. Here's something from tripme.co.nz:

Originally Posted by STARGATE - Harm Reduction Solutions

Friday 16th March 2007

Anonymous Pill Analysis

Pill Name: Neo-Doves

Appearance: Small red capsule containing white powder.

A small red capsule containing white powder. No piperazines were detected. Tests indicated that the capsule contained an unidentified substance, caffeine and possibly metamfepramone (dimethylpropion). These substances have not been confirmed. We do not have a reference standard of metamfepramone. Metamfepramone is an analogue of amfepramone and is considered a Class C controlled drug in New Zealand.

The analysis was by Marquis colour test followed by GCMS and GCMS of trifluoroacetic anhydride derivatives. GCMS analysis indicated that the unidentified substance possibly had a 1-amino-2-phenylethane nucleus such as amphetamine analogues possess.

Pills are analysed in New Zealand by a laboratory licensed to work with illicit drugs and the program is sponsored by Stargate as a harm reduction exercise. More pill results are at www.pillreports.com under New Zealand. Please contact us if you have substances to be tested in New Zealand. Please do not send us drugs.

Be aware that batches vary and popular pills attract copycat batches.

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