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Some ACTUAL harm minimisation via speculation

Reminisant B

Reminisant B

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LU Doves: Some ACTUAL harm minimisation via speculation

Ok I'm not entirely sure if this post will be generally accepted, I know a lot of people won't want to talk about possible contents. There are a lot of people I would assume who would want to keep the ingredients unknown.

The new "legal party pill" everyone is raving on about "LU DOVES".

Apart from normal curiosity, considering the number of people who are ingesting this, not giving any clue to the ingredients is highly irresponsible. So I'm hoping to possibly use a bit of shared speculative ideas from advanced drug discussion. Not experience reports but possible ingredients - yes it's only speculation but it seems better than nothing right now.

[Ok so making the possibly dangerous assumption listing only "ketones" as the main ingredients is something based on fact]

My incomplete (potential) list....

  • MDPV [and related compounds]
  • bk-MDXX [seems unlikely if you believe the advertising claiming no ethylone or methylone]
  • bk-benzofuran analogue of MDMA
  • Dimethylcathinone(also called Metamfepramon)
  • bk-PMMA and related compounds
  • bk-benzphetamine
  • Alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone [Alpha-PPP]
  • pemoline analogue [technically a ketone?]
  • bk-IAP/IMAP [or substituted versions]
  • bk-PPAP
  • bk-N-methyl-DOM
  • phenyl-piracetam / Carphedon (contains keto group)
  • bk-4MA +/- extra methyl for stability
  • methylphenidate type compound (with keto group ? e.g ethylphenidate)
  • tryptamine (with keto group - I don't know any though)

*any of the above in combination

Non ketone compounds
  • MBZP
  • MDBZP
  • MeoPP


unlikely compounds
  • bk-psycadelics (doesn't seem to have any psycadelic component to it)
  • new piperazine analogue which contains ketone group [?]

Known properties
  • Some level of entactogenic activity
  • Stimulant effects last long from anecdotal reports past the point of entactogenic properties, =>can cause insomnia
  • many reports of stomach upset & bad reactions combined with BZP

This is by no means conclusive and very speculative but something usefull might come out of this discussion. [hopefully :\ ] One of the major plus points for "legal highs" was you know what your getting (however rubbish the effects were). It seems with these you are even less likely of finding out components even compared to unknown street pills from unknown source.
 

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If I had to take a complete guess right now (THIS IS JUST SPECULATION) would be some kind of MDPV type compound combined with bk-MBDB or similar.

This doesn't seem to fit all the criteria from what I understand however and doesn't entirely make sense.


"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" 8o

Hard to apply to pharmacology as there are so many possiblities but a list of possible compounds might shed some light on the very dark areas legal highs are heading.
 
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This seems to have jumped out of thin air, for me at least. What are you basing all these assumptions on? Why the focus on Ketones?

It seems as though you assume everyone knows about these pills? :)
 
^ you make a good point.

They are called "Doves" produced by a company that used to make loads of BZP/TFMPP type "party pills". As can be expected most were all very similar however since the UK ban they have released a range of pills with their "D.O.M.S" proprietry blend which all (from reading reports) appear to be rubbish replacements sold as "BZP Free"

That said their latest pill called "DOVES" seems in a league of it's own, shrowed in secrecy.

It's sold as "plant food" and the ingredients only list binders/fillers and "KETONES" [to feed you plant or words to that effects]

Many comparisons have been made with bk-MDMA etc but the manufacturers claim they contain no methylone, ethylone, butylone. (Whether it's clever to assume this statement is true or not ?):\

Seeing as it's popular and clearly very active, harm maximisation is probably the suitable word as there is no possible way (without access to GC/MS) to figure out the contents
 
Thanks for the info :)

I suppose my first reaction is, has anyone tried to reagent-test these?

It is strange how they list the ingredients and yet emphasize that it isn't bk-MDx...

Of the ones you list, I HIGHLY doubt it is either a pemoline or piracetam analogue.
 
^Thanks the above thread you mention is on Neo-DOVES though. Agreed there is speculation on those as well but at least dimethylcathinone has come forward as a possible (with evidence to back up the claim)

LU doves are the tablets I'm refering to and are being sold from within the UK to the UK. So they are far more available and yet completely unknown. With what seems only basic reagent tests having been performed.

Very worrying, especially as they are sold as plant food.
 
The marketing interview with the manufacturers which is usually published with their other D.O.M.S containing products mentions "chaperone molecules" which help get the molecules where they are required.

possibilities:

Maoi inhibitors [which could form part of formulation]
  • Moclobemide [has a ketone group]
  • Toloxatone
  • Iproclozide

More likely
  • Piperidine (image below) - has ketone group and is known to increase absorption of supplements.

Moclobemide would not be entirely illogical though, chaperone molecules could refer to a bad explanation of how a maoi works.

Would also make sense why they are marketed as plant food (if they contained moclobemide) due to moclobemide definately being classed as a medicine. I would think though moclobemide is unlikely as the "chaperone molecules" are included in their other products where I think the instructions are given properly (not for helping plant growth).
 

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Two possible new ones added:

Alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone
bk-benzphetamine [?]
 

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Of course and I wasn't aware but have just read the methylenedioxy version is known and has appeared...

R,S-3',4'-Methylenedioxy-alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone

http://www.amphetamines.com/mdppp/index.html

APPP & something like this seems quite a feasable possibility & with a much shorter chain length than MDPV would possibly show more entactogenic activity? [Still speculation]
 

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...and the 4-methyl-derivative seems to have been researched. Interesting.

[EDIT] In fact quite a few

# Pyrrolidinophenone derivatives

* R,S-alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone (PPP)

* R,S-4'-methoxy-alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone (MOPPP)

* R,S-3',4'-methylenedioxy-alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone (MDPPP)

* R,S-4'-methyl-alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone (MPPP)

* R,S-4'-methyl-alpha-pyrrolidinohexanophenone (MPHP)
Click to expand...

taken from...
http://bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=210790&page=6
 
If these are the same pills as the "Doves" from "London Underground" that were sold in the party pill shops in New Zealand last year (not sure if they're still on sale now but I would assume so), they contain bk-MBDB and TFMPP.

Oh yeah and the Neo-Doves were also sold in New Zealand, they contained dimethylcathinone and caffeine, might have been other ingredients too, I forget.
 
There have been two versions of the LU Doves; the earlier version was on limited release last year and contained about 100 mg of bzp along with possibly ethylone or butylone.

Wonder if the new ones might contain a stimulant such as Diphenyl-2-Pyrrolidinyl-methanol (due to the horrible insomnia) along with another ketone such as listed in posts above. They're better as plant feeder in my view. ;)
 
Mona Lisa said:
Wonder if the new ones might contain a stimulant such as Diphenyl-2-Pyrrolidinyl-methanol (due to the horrible insomnia) along with another ketone such as listed in posts above. They're better as plant feeder in my view. ;)
Click to expand...

I would definately agree with speculation that they probably may contain some kind of stimulant in combination [other than BZP in the old ones]. From reading many experience reports it seems there is definately an element of lasting insomnia, more than can be accounted from bk-mbdb or similar compounds. However if one reads the ingredients list and believes it ...

ketones + binders

...are the only ingredients.

So I would speculate they don't contain Diphenyl prolinol as its not a ketone. [Although agreed this relies on the ingredient list being accurate]

α-PPP would still fit the profile as its a ketone, could account for insomnia and may well combine with bk-mbdb etc well.
 
Reminisant B said:
Ok I'm not entirely sure if this post will be generally accepted, I know a lot of people won't want to talk about possible contents. There are a lot of people I would assume who would want to keep the ingredients unknown.

The new "legal party pill" everyone is raving on about "LU DOVES".

Apart from normal curiosity, considering the number of people who are ingesting this, not giving any clue to the ingredients is highly irresponsible. So I'm hoping to possibly use a bit of shared speculative ideas from advanced drug discussion. Not experience reports but possible ingredients - yes it's only speculation but it seems better than nothing right now.

[Ok so making the possibly dangerous assumption listing only "ketones" as the main ingredients is something based on fact]

My incomplete (potential) list....


  • MDPV [and related compounds]
  • bk-MDXX [seems unlikely if you believe the advertising claiming no ethylone or methylone]
  • bk-benzofuran analogue of MDMA
  • Dimethylcathinone(also called Metamfepramon)
  • bk-PMMA and related compounds
  • bk-benzphetamine
  • Alpha-pyrrolidinopropiophenone [Alpha-PPP]
  • pemoline analogue [technically a ketone?]
  • bk-IAP/IMAP [or substituted versions]
  • bk-PPAP
  • phenyl-piracetam / Carphedon (contains keto group)
  • bk-4MA +/- extra methyl for stability
  • methylphenidate type compound (with keto group ? e.g ethylphenidate)
  • tryptamine (with keto group - I don't know any though)

*any of the above in combination

Non ketone compounds
  • MBZP
  • MDBZP
  • MeoPP


unlikely compounds
  • bk-psycadelics (doesn't seem to have any psycadelic component to it)
  • new piperazine analogue which contains ketone group [?]

Known properties
  • Some level of entactogenic activity
  • Stimulant effects last long from anecdotal reports past the point of entactogenic properties, =>can cause insomnia
  • many reports of stomach upset & bad reactions combined with BZP

This is by no means conclusive and very speculative but something useful might come out of this discussion. [hopefully :\ ] One of the major plus points for "legal highs" was you know what your getting (however rubbish the effects were). It seems with these you are even less likely of finding out components even compared to unknown street pills from unknown source.
Click to expand...

I Have done two benzofuran analogues of MDMA, but after a study came out on primates and possible neurotoxicity of these, I did not do them again. I noticed no damage from the two experiences (actually probably less from extensive period of MDMA/MDEA use in 1988. I used it first in 1984 and noticed no changes, but after the extensive use in 1988, I noticed memory issues. I at one time (in undergraduate school) had a photographic memory and could remember the blackboard from the days of class. Although this did not disappear all at once, I noticed it changed significantly during a 3 month run of daily use (sometimes up to an 1/8 oz a day with a girlfriend. She has since ODed about three years ago, so I am not able to discuss whether she noticed any differences.) Note that I did not put the connection together until later (perhaps 5 years.)

MobiusDick
 
MobiusDick said:
I Have done two benzofuran analogues of MDMA, but after a study came out on primates and possible neurotoxicity of these, I did not do them again. I noticed no damage from the two experiences (actually probably less from extensive period of MDMA/MDEA use in 1988. I used it first in 1984 and noticed no changes, but after the extensive use in 1988, I noticed memory issues. I at one time (in undergraduate school) had a photographic memory and could remember the blackboard from the days of class. Although this did not disappear all at once, I noticed it changed significantly during a 3 month run of daily use (sometimes up to an 1/8 oz a day with a girlfriend. She has since ODed about three years ago, so I am not able to discuss whether she noticed any differences.) Note that I did not put the connection together until later (perhaps 5 years.)

MobiusDick
Click to expand...

I have also thought that variations on aminorex and 4-methylaminorex would be interesting to know about as I found these quite different from methamphetamine (which I do not particularly like) insofar as they had less noradrenergic activity and more dopaminergic activity, and possible serotonergic activity, but that is much more speculative on my part as it is hard to distinguish serotonergic activity in yourself with any real objectivity.

MobiusDick
 
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