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So what makes abortion immoral?

RichardMooner said:
Even if life begins at conception, I don't see why it is immoral.
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I assume you're referring to the way the absolutist is said to believe in the quoted text i.e., that a unique and indivisible eternal soul enters the zygote upon conception, thereby beginning a new human life? From this perspective the zygote has gained supernatural properties that make it the same as an adult in fundamentally important ways. Indivisibility and eternality are astonishing transcendent properties/powers if they are possessed by any experiencing being, regardless of whether or not that being has cultivated memories and personality via experience in the aggregated and ephemeral physical world, wouldn't you agree? If one believes these powers are possessed by human beings by virtue of a soul, even omitting being a gift from God, then wouldn't denying such an entity's flourishing in the external world by destroying its fleshly means constitute an intentional denial of a supernatural will to life that transcends earthly concerns, and should thereby be morally deferred to?

I don't personally subscribe to the absolutist's beliefs, but if I did it couldn't be clearer to me why abortion is immoral. I imagine I couldn't help but feel compelled to go to extreme lengths to prevent them from occurring.
 
Trying2Iso said:
hair is already dead, tumors are part of your own body, and toilet scum aren't human. moot points
i support abortion rights, but i also admit that it is killing. abortion is more like Justified killing.
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Foetuses are part of your own body..
 
rickolasnice said:
Foetuses are part of your own body..
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In what sense do you think a fetus is part of a (woman's) body in the way hair or tumors are? The union of sperm and ovum as a zygote constitutes the first stage of a genetically unique organism. The zygote is directly dependent on its mother's body for nourishment, but it may develop a different blood type, grow flesh that would be rejected if grafted to the mother's flesh, etc. Whatever else may be said abortion certainly involves killing a unique living organism.
 
Ninae said:
The soul isn't said to take up residence in the body before 3 months
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90 days? How can I tell if it's ensouled yet? Do I consult a rabbi?

My only issue with abortion is that some people use it as a form of birth control because they're too fucking lazy to take the proper precautions. "I'll pull out and even if you do get pregnant we can always abort"
 
schwiftee said:
90 days? How can I tell if it's ensouled yet? Do I consult a rabbi?

My only issue with abortion is that some people use it as a form of birth control because they're too fucking lazy to take the proper precautions. "I'll pull out and even if you do get pregnant we can always abort"
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It's hard to imagine what the developmental criteria would need to be for a physically transcendent entity to become embodied. I see why many believe the soul enters at conception: genetically unique human body matter = an individual soul. Time in development is arguably critical regardless though. It usually becomes possible for a fetus to survive outside of the womb between the second and third trimesters. This indicates whatever sensations and perceptions are being experienced have attained a foundational level of viability. Even for a non-believer in souls the crossing of this threshold can be defended as warranting a greater level of moral concern.
 
The commandment which says "thou shall not kill".

Children are miracles from God, when you abort you are spitting in the face of Jesus essentially.

Legally we recognize "fetuses" as people in many states if you kill a pregnant women it's two counts of murder.

An unborn fetus may not be a child to you, but ask a women who miscarriages and she will never say well it was just a ball of cells anyways or it was just a fetus not a person yet it's okay. It's a human being and if you don't want to bring a human into the world you should practice celibacy.
 
LosBlancos said:
The commandment which says "thou shall not kill".

Children are miracles from God, when you abort you are spitting in the face of Jesus essentially.

Legally we recognize "fetuses" as people in many states if you kill a pregnant women it's two counts of murder.

An unborn fetus may not be a child to you, but ask a women who miscarriages and she will never say well it was just a ball of cells anyways or it was just a fetus not a person yet it's okay. It's a human being and if you don't want to bring a human into the world you should practice celibacy.
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"Thou shall not murder". King James is a shitty translation.
 
psood0nym said:
I assume you're referring to the way the absolutist is said to believe in the quoted text i.e., that a unique and indivisible eternal soul enters the zygote upon conception, thereby beginning a new human life? From this perspective the zygote has gained supernatural properties that make it the same as an adult in fundamentally important ways. Indivisibility and eternality are astonishing transcendent properties/powers if they are possessed by any experiencing being, regardless of whether or not that being has cultivated memories and personality via experience in the aggregated and ephemeral physical world, wouldn't you agree? If one believes these powers are possessed by human beings by virtue of a soul, even omitting being a gift from God, then wouldn't denying such an entity's flourishing in the external world by destroying its fleshly means constitute an intentional denial of a supernatural will to life that transcends earthly concerns, and should thereby be morally deferred to?

I don't personally subscribe to the absolutist's beliefs, but if I did it couldn't be clearer to me why abortion is immoral. I imagine I couldn't help but feel compelled to go to extreme lengths to prevent them from occurring.
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I still don't see why it is a sin according to Biblical standards.
 
LosBlancos said:
Children are miracles from God, when you abort you are spitting in the face of Jesus essentially.
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I wonder if God is proud of his sufferers of harlequins disease or his products of violent rape.


In truth, if humanity simply must abide these things, spitting in the face of jesus is pretty mild.

LosBlancos said:
An unborn fetus may not be a child to you, but ask a women who miscarriages and she will never say well it was just a ball of cells anyways or it was just a fetus not a person yet it's okay. It's a human being and if you don't want to bring a human into the world you should practice celibacy
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It would shock me if anyone who has recently gone through any substantial trauma, like a miscarriage, had much that was rational or reasonable to say on the matter so I get your point. Oddly, you seem to be arguing against yourself... A foetus is dependant on the mother in a way that is similar to my legs dependence on me. You can claim that a baby is sacred stardust but don't forget about my leg! ;)

Free sock for all.
 
psood0nym said:
In what sense do you think a fetus is part of a (woman's) body in the way hair or tumors are? The union of sperm and ovum as a zygote constitutes the first stage of a genetically unique organism. The zygote is directly dependent on its mother's body for nourishment, but it may develop a different blood type, grow flesh that would be rejected if grafted to the mother's flesh, etc. Whatever else may be said abortion certainly involves killing a unique living organism.
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I'd like to see it live without the host. You could say it's technically a parasite until birth.

I've said it's technically killing but to call it so would imply more than it is.

I firmly believe a foetus doesn't become a person until after birth.. so yes it's killing an organism but it is in no way killing a person.
 
^
??
Do you buy your logic wholesale?
Does this "parasite" need its "host"
after "replication"?
Still firm on that belief?
You can get your logic from me,
Its cheaper.
 
Umm.. yes a foetus needs it's host.. it lives off it's host and gives nothing back.. You think a 1 month old foetus could live independently of the mother? Your logic is cheaper.. i guess you get what you pay for.

parasite
ˈparəsʌɪt/Submit
noun
1.
an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

The fuck you mean after "replication"?
 
You're still lacking in logic.
I'll lend you some more of mine.
You said you "firmly belief a fetus doesnt become a "person" until after birth"
After birth the "parasite" still needs its host
I'm glad you realized that.
So when does it become a person?
At birth, at 1, at 11?
At what age is it ok to stop calling it a parasite and calling it a person? When it moves out and goes to college?
The life isnt anymore self dependent at
minus one month than it is at plus one month.
 
Seriously?

Read the definition of parasite. carefully now.. I was kind enough to post it for you.

See if you can work out the answer to your question. If you seriously can't.. Fuck me.

Care to point out exactly where my logic fails?

As for my belief.. Yeah.. it will start to become a person after or during birth.

If we could keep a human body alive but without a brain, would you consider that a person?

After birth the "parasite" still needs its host
I'm glad you realized that.
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No it doesn't. And I didn't say it did. You are just championing this reading comprehension today.. two in one post and another couple in that PM earlier.. bravo.
 
What I'm curious is what makes the statement "becomes a person" true.
Is it conception?
Is it organ development?
Is it breathing air?

Probably not. I think most people assume it's when a soul is inserted but don't even realize it.

Personally, I think being made to be human is a horrible punishment, so I've always been for abortions.

And a fetus is definitely a parasite during gestation & a baby is no longer a parasite after birth. It is able to breathe, eat, & excrete. It's just not self-sufficient. Big difference.

BTW, I don't hit my slaves. I believe in positive re-enforcement.
 
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