So I tried Heroin!!

[edarrin]

feelings differ when physiological symptoms begin to manifest as a result of not doing said drug, e.g. withdrawal

Yep, have to agree with that 100%. Then it becomes more than a luxury like "all that other shit". THAT'S the difference.

 

[diacetyldeath]

diacetyl - you are exactly on the mark and i really, REALLY hope uprising can understand that. sadly, though, as an experienced user of other opioids i can say he probably won't until it's too late and he finds himself on the same one-way street.

have -you- considered iboga? there are some shops that will ship it overseas and if you carefully meter out the dose it has a wonderful side-effect of rebooting your dependency...

the trick is this: do you really want away from the ball and chain? if you don't, you won't be able to quit. if you do, you'll feel relieved when your iboga trip ends and you feel no cravings and have no physical symptoms.

glad the smak hasn't ruined your life; for now i'm in the same sort of boat as you are, though, just not as intensely.

and chinacat - two days in a row of a drug that takes eight hours to eliminate? try more like "not more than twice in as many weeks."

- amar

If this question was for me, yes, I've considered iboga, but... I dunno. The more I read peoples' accounts of using it, and couple my understanding of such accounts with the inreasingly complex understanding I've developed over the years of what withdrawal actually is, what it isn't, and related phenomena, I get the impression that it wouldn't really work for me.

I could go into my opioid-using philosophy, but it's totally out of place after the lengthy posts that I regurgitated above, and would sort of make me look either incredibly hypocritical or delusional. So maybe I'll furnish it in another thread, another time.

But basically I'm pretty convinced that, if I used iboga, it wouldn't reset my dependency, basically because my goal is not to stop using opioids indefinitely; ideally I just want a free ticket back to baseline tolerance without the inconvenience of withdrawal or PAWS (that is, I want to be able to keep my job, and by doing that, my house, car, absurdly large televisions, video game gadgetry, et al).

Given the aforementioned understanding that I've cultivated over the years about What Withdrawal Is, my current theory is that iboga is more of a perspective-correcting enabler that enables someone to get through withdrawal by basically proving to/convincing their subconscious that it isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. But that person has to be in the right headspace; he has to have some kind of moral/spiritual/ethical problem with the fact that he is hopelessly addicted to opioids.

I do not happen to be in that headspace; in fact I believe my outlook on my personal opioid use is diametrically opposed to that mindset. Again, saying more would not really be in line with what I've posted so far, so I'll stop with that.

Still, if I'm wrong, and iboga could be a free ticket to baseline tolerance without the hassle of withdrawal even if the person using iboga A) has every intention of abusing opioids again and B) has no problem with the aforementioned, then I'd actually be really excited to try it.

However, if the above supposition were true, I feel like a whole metric fuckton of people would have already taken it and made it several orders of magnitude more popular than it is, since it would be, in effect, a miracle cure to which one could turn every time he woke up one day and realized that he is currently spending hundreds of times more money to get high than he had to spend back when he had no tolerance to do the same thing.

The phrase I typed in that paragraph, "micracle cure," is something I do not think currently exists vis a vis opioid addiction, at least in our society (see previous post in thread RE: current progress of medical/neuropharmacological knowledge, human nature, general capitalist nature of society), or else it would be really phenomenally popular and everyone would already have done it multiple times to "reset their dependency."

I kind of hope you post back and tell me that I'm absolutely categorically incorrect, and that iboga is indeed this miracle cure and I should get some right away. Furthermore, if you do post such a reply, I hope even more that I possess the machinery to be able to believe you with little enough cynicism to maybe try it someday. But I think it's more likely that I'll be on Methadone for a long, long time, and sort of forget all about what it's like to feel high on an opioid, and if I'm really, really lucky, someday I'll feel it again, and through the incredibly vast stores of knowledge RE: CCK inhibition, ULD antagonist therapy, NMDA antognism, kappa antagonism, and how all of these things relate to the process of becoming addicted (or re-addicted in such a lucky future case's example) to opioids that I have amassed over the years, I will at least be able to stretch the process out and enjoy it for a great deal longer.

Here's hoping. Cheers. *gulps down 110mg methadone and another 8mg of hydromorphone that he still hasn't figured out how to IV in sufficient quantities (e.g. 20mg+) without creating an unusable paste of binder-hydromorphone cement*

*shrug* Here's hoping.

 

[amar_g]

kind sir,

i am in a very similar boat to yours, but there are a few things you should know about iboga and about the people currently researching and dispensing it. i know i have a responsibility to furnish sources so i will do my best; i just don't generally trust any sources (lol).

first, you and i share the mindset of "opiates make our lives better." as i've already waxed poetic on opium here, there's no need to repeat it. i'm a substantially better educator - in every respect - when i use opium than i am without. and i love the accolades i've been getting for my superhuman abilities. just never tell anyone the secret haha.

anyway, if you want to get back to baseline, you should use my guide at Withdrawal here on this forum. I've developed this pattern carefully and independently of others in the five times I have attempted quitting. two times have been successful for months at a time, but i have not ever wanted to *permanently* be off opium -- it really does improve my life.

if you use the loperamide diet or even your methadone to wean yourself, get a beta blocker or alpha agonist to make the physical symptoms easy, and keep your mind in the mode of "if i can make it six months my body will be almost reset; if i can make it a year i will absolutely be reset."

again, the best thing to do for that is to make the symptoms bearable while you stop the stock bbb-crossing opioids (but keep collecting your doses; they'll come in handy when you return to it).

so let's talk about iboga... felonious though it may be in the united states, where i assume you reside, there are places in the netherlands and africa which will ship them to you. Now is where i will spend some time googling the sources i have previously read, because i do believe you are *somewhat* incorrect about it.

i take you to be quite an educated person, thus i won't waste your time with links to sites that claim to sell a cure. i'm trying now to find scholarly articles. while they load i'll provide a summary of what i've read:

iboga (ebOOga) contains ibogaine, which is a very powerful toxin that binds to multiple receptor sites and burns them dry. if you've ever done speed you know the next-day feeling of "holy shit i have no dopamine or serotonin" -- it seems as though its basic action is to deplete your stockpiles of everything and to burn up the receptor sites, tiring them out until they have to heal. the nice thing is that this healing process works to revert the damage caused by exogenous opioids, so there is quite a bit of physical relief.

http://www.a-keys.nl/ayahuasca/ayahuasca/Iboga.html is a faux-scholarly article and the first that i actaully managed to load. some of it is bullshit, and will set off your bs detector as it is, but some is legit; you will be able to determine the difference. i am being bandwidth-sucked right now because my web server is dishing out cars and plants and ebay stuff all at once, so i'm having trouble loading web pages, but i'll happily discuss it with you via pm any time.

i think that with a positive attitude like "i MUST stop this" you will have better results, but i also think if you gave yourself a day so you could start washing out (required so iboga doesn't hurt you) and then started your iboga trip with the goal in mind of reversing your tolerance, you'd still meet with great success. just give it a couple weeks after you trip to normalize - you'll be tired as hell from the internal healing process.

the thing iboga promises and that i have yet to discover first-hand is elimination of all the worst symptoms - heebie-jeebies, hot+cold flushing, etc. the mild ones remain, but you and i both know which symptoms persist when you stop opioids anyway.

i am very interested in trying it, but i am not willing to take the risk of importation right now for private reasons. it is illegal where i live as well.

so the articles i've read have claimed it is a reasonably effective part of a near-miracle cure, if that makes sense. but guys like you and i both don't want to be cured; we just want our cheap fun back.

well, my tea is steeping now so i'll get my cheap fun right now!

- amar

 

[e12dsm]

here's a thought... quit now before u even start. Not trying to be a dick or anything, but heroin is nothinggggg to fuck with. i remember when i thought i knew everything and was the toughest fuck on this planet, until i met "The Ron" dont get caught up in the web dude, u have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

 

[phr]

DD,

Why have you chosen methadone over suboxone? I think I've read some of your posts where you've mentioned that you were on suboxone, but why'd you switch?

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this, since you did say that your goal is to reset your dependency(or lower your tolerance as much as its physically possible). A one to two month suboxone taper is certainly easier than an equal methadone run... That to me seems like your quickest and best bet, unless you're considering an anesthetic naloxone detox(which has its own medical risk and high cost).

 

[JihadJack]

i do heroin every now and then. i think it's good, but not good enough to get addicted. but yeh, you dont know whats going to hppen untill uyou get a feel for the drug.

 

[SilverFeniks]

I've been trying to source heroin for years ... have yet to meet a single friend who has even used it, let alone knows where to get it. I still pray I'll find a bit some day, though I know for sure I'll love it ...

When I got my first taste of OCs, I had a very distant hookup, and, despite having used various drugs [mdma, psylocibin, ketamine, methadone] recreationally, I'd never experienced any sort of real addiction [not even cannabis smoking, which I enjoyed + did often, but never pined for].

But once I tried those OCs ... I'd go from once-a-week to twice-a-week .. run out, get more a few months down the line, and suddenly they kept disappearing quicker.
"These OCs will really help this minor surgery."
"I'll use these up at some point anyway, might as well enjoy them now rather than later!"
Home from work off a graveyard shift, when I'd normally eat breakfast and pass out? Why not skip my planned celebration party, not sleep, and have some OC with my cheerios?

After all those experiences, I always found myself addicted to anything I'd use. I'd get some amphs or MDMA [which, by then, I found incredibly inferior and not that enjoyable], and blow through them quick. OC destroyed my willpower and rationalization models.
I got a quick summer job, and got fired for being stupid and taking some bait, hoping I could buy something with it ... went back to an old job, started scamming cash from that to buy drugs ... all this while studying law/politics in Uni, playing the righteous, respectable hard-working student for everyone else.

Eventually I quit all the hard stuff, but even today I've struggled with drinking + smoking herb far more often then I'd ever have allowed ..

I post this all here because I can only imagine the warmth and bliss that heroin must contain .. OCs are seen as pretty strong for the virgin drug user, but I've yet to hear anyone compare their power to that of heroin. It seems the mighty H stands at the very top of the drug chain, commanding respect from all lesser intoxicants, demending obediance from all its unfortunate addicts.

For a while, on those OCs, I swore I wouldn't touch anything but opiates + cannabis ... which is roughly my approach these days [tho I do like a good premium brew]. I've had a few supplies of methadone, but no OCs [save one single bit] fpr something like 18 months .. but were heroin to come around, even being completely ignorant and inexperienced with it, I have no doubts I'd be willing to throw away all I've built for myself to finally obtain that revered state of junkie.

Bottom line: don't lie to yourself. it can do no good.

edit: why's this so rambling / disjointed? Cos I'd finished off some pod tea, that's why. Can't kick those urges, even a year or more clean!

 

[thujone]

there's a lot of knowledge here, but not everyone becomes a junky. you become a junky at the point where you cease fearing the drug and start using it more than just once every once in a while... i.e. more than once a month. i've almost become addicted once IVing for the third time in a week then I thought: "what am I doing? I already can't afford this, and this is not what life is. Nobody wants to live like this." and that was it. raw fear is key.

 

[Open Ur Eyes]

I have been doing oxy for almost 2 years now. Sometimes I will do it 3-4 days in a row. Sometimes I won't do it for a week, sometimes 3 times a week. Very sporadic use basically never using needles. I barely ever do over 40-60 mgs and have never done an 80. I find it very easy to control my use by only doing it at night after all my work is done and never raising my dosage. (I am full time college student with full time job) I think if you keep your priorities straight then you can be a successful chipper IMO I also do heroin evry once in a while (sometimes with needles) but I try to stay away from it and haven't done it in a couple months. Do you think if I keep up what I am doing, then I will eventually become addicted? The only withdrawls I have ever fault is minor chills and restless legs (which is really annoying!! lol) but I never have trouble sleeping without it or anything usually b/c im exhausted by the end of the day anyways. Are their any other succesful chippers out their that have done it for a long time and then stopped permantly with no prob? I honestly think I could basically b/c im kind of sick of them but that is what happens with me I usually get tired of the same drugs....neways im ranting cuz im fucked up on roxis. If I could get some input with someone with a similar situation like mine that would be nice...

 

[chinacat311]

yeah i was like you for a while.. i chipped OC like it was nothing. then somehow once or twice a month turned into once a week..then you know where it goes from there. you just gotta watch yourself. if you do it every weekend for a while, you will grow dependent on the drug even though you might not get physically addicted. the psychological addiction is the hardest part- and every time you use it just builds. you say you have been doing it for two years now..i think at that point it would be very hard for you to just stop completely..the psychological addiction is setting in even though you might not even feel physical withdrawal.

but it didnt last for me. some people can pull it off, but its rare. i just started doin it every day and didnt really think anything of it at the time, i had plenty of excuses/reasons to justify it.. just watch out and if you notice you are beginning to use more than you used to, take a break for a while.

 

[diacetyldeath]

DD,

Why have you chosen methadone over suboxone? I think I've read some of your posts where you've mentioned that you were on suboxone, but why'd you switch?

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this, since you did say that your goal is to reset your dependency(or lower your tolerance as much as its physically possible). A one to two month suboxone taper is certainly easier than an equal methadone run... That to me seems like your quickest and best bet, unless you're considering an anesthetic naloxone detox(which has its own medical risk and high cost).

I tried suboxone for... I guess around a year, really, off and on. My major problem with it was that it did *not* eliminate all of the symptoms for me, period. I mean, even the doc told me it probably wouldn't be a total fix -- I was injecting 40 bags a day when I got my first Suboxone Rx. And he was right.

Suboxone (32mg/day) fixed most/all of the physical symptoms, but there were still MAJOR, MAJOR craving/psychological problems. Obviously the craving -- I couldn't go 5 minutes without ... "wanting" doesn't convey the proper state of mind. I guess "Lamenting" my current lack of opioids is a little better, but the cravings were absolute hell. And then the motivational problems -- the combination of psychological withdrawal symptoms + the cravings made me into a useless wreck; I couldn't work, I couldn't be a proper significant other, etc., etc.

I'm sure Suboxone would work just as well as Methadone for someone using less than I was. But the fact is, it didn't for me.

In fact, I was afraid Methadone would be more of the same -- horrible cravings, horrible psychological symptoms. But it wasn't! Of course, now that I've read a great deal about Methadone, I can see why I have no complaints about it... In some ways, it's a great deal stronger than heroin/hydromorphone/oxymorphone. It's not nearly as euphoric, but it's definitely a respectable full agonist, and it gets the job done, albeit for the price of committing yourself never to feel high for the course of your treatment. I also think Methadone got me over a certain hump in terms of discipline -- going to the clinic every day (at least at first), having the nurses watch you take your dose, making sure you don't skip any -- there was really no option to think "Ok, today I'll use, but tomorrow I'll get back on track." So that helped for the short time that I think I needed it; these days, the perceived need to use OFTEN has gone away, at least for now. This is one of those topics on which I could write a novel, and I have a singing gig for which I have to leave in 5 minutes, and I still haven't made any coffee, so I'll shut up for now.

Suboxone was nice in that if I could handle the problems with it for a week, I could return to using with a significantly lowered tolerance (although it wasn't close to baseline). Unfortunately, things got to the point where I simply could not afford to return to using, at least for about a year. So I started Methadone.

*shrug* Things work differently for everyone, I guess. Again, I believe that most of the problems I have with withdrawal are psychological. I have an incredible *fear* of it, and I'm not one to get very worked up about things in general at all, so it's sort of odd. Nothing strikes terror into the core of my being like *knowing* I will be withdrawing in the next 8-16 hours.

So for now, Methadone is a good deal for me. Someday down the line I will be moving away from it, perhaps with the help of ibogaine. But not just yet.

Good luck; be safe.

-DD

 

[zigzag| dta]

heroin... hmmmm never had much of a desire to try it


but i have a burning desires to smoke some opium

 

[amar_g]

ime opium is much better eaten than smoked.