Heroin Smoother transition from big dope habit to bupe -- my experience

[DickMcWickland]

Hey everyone,
Longtime reader, first time poster here. First off, let me say how much this site has helped to empower me with incredible amounts of knowledge regarding opiate addiction and everything that comes with it. With or without Suboxone or Subutex, I'm now able to almost painlessly get through opiate withdrawals of any severity using a mix of easily available prescription drugs and over-the-counter medicines. Still, I thought I'd share my experience as a high dose heroin user with switching to suboxone/bupe regarding what works and what doesn't in the hopes that it can help save any fellow addicts the trial and error of consistent relapse as a result of varying levels of discomfort after making the switch.

My history is two years of on and off abuse, about 8 months of daily IV use of 1 gram/bundle/10 bags high quality east coast powder (ECP). A few months ago, I got an rx for suboxone and it simply didn't take. I would always wait around 18 hours and be in sufficient withdrawal to take my sub, however I would get very little relief, regardless of dose. And speaking of dose, it is true that doctors way overprescribe the stuff and that, even with a habit like mine, 6mg is no less effective than 16 or 32 -- I felt the same regardless. Let me clarify that the physical symptoms of my withdrawal have always been 90% relieved by that first dose of Suboxone, it's just that it does nothing to touch the mental anguish and extreme anhedonia that comes with withdrawal and I still feel incredibly weak and achy. Plus the sub gives me some unpleasant side effects, including terrible hot flashes. This has always frustrated me to no end, as seemingly near every other bupe user gets instant relief and claims to feel like they did pre-addiction almost immediately.

Anyway, as an addict who seeks immediate gratification to treat various underlying issues and insecurities, this lack of total relief has always lead me back to dope within a couple days. This last induction attempt was different and here's where I get to the point of the thread. I did 2mg of bupe at the undeniable onset of my heroin withdrawals and continued to dose another 2mg each hour until my physical withdrawal symptoms had mostly subsided, totaling 6mg to hold me for the most part. Of course, I still felt achy, depressed, and incredibly lethargic for the next day and a half, even after redosing with another 4mg every 8-12 hours (which is probably overkill anyway -- this stuff is strong and can stabilize someone with a more moderate habit at 1mg or 2mg tops). This is where I had the seemingly counterproductive idea of doing a nice big shot of dope on top of the subs to help saturate whatever receptors were clearly unsatiated, causing me to feel like shit. My plan was to do a .5g shot 8 hours after my last 4mg sub dose, knowing it would be partially blocked but hoping it would feel nice anyway. I'd say the dope's effects were 75% reduced, but I immediately felt great -- the mental fog of depression, anhedonia and lethargy was gone. I woke up the next morning, 12 hours later, still feeling very good. 18 hours in, when I'd normally be back in heroin withdrawal, the sub was still holding me, and much better than prior to taking the heroin -- no trouble climbing stairs or doing anything that needed to be done. At this point, I redosed 4mg bupe, and proceeded feeling good well into the third day. My plan is a short taper from this point forward, dropping my dose by 25% each day until I ultimately jump off at a crumb of bupe nearly two weeks later. We'll see how that goes, and I may update here, but the point, for now, is that doing dope on top of my initial induction to bupe made the transition smoother and far less miserable, reducing the urge to fully relapse as I've done in the past and reducing the major aches, depression, and near unbearable cravings. If you've found that, as a similarly high dose heroin user, you're having trouble making the switch, give this method a try. Remember, this isn't an excuse to relapse -- you're just using a big dose once several hours after the induction dose to stabilize yourself and continuing with your initial sub therapy plan 12-24 hours later, be it with the intention of a comfortable detox or long-term maintenance.

Anyone else had success with this method? What does everyone think? Any and all feedback is obviously appreciated. Hopefully I did everything right in composing this post. Thanks for reading!

 

[d1ahp]

If I don't wait long enough to dose Bupe, my experience is exactly the same as yours. You describe it perfectly. But if I spend 48hrs in withdrawals and then dose 2mg of Bupe, I actually get a buzz and feel perfectly fine. The issue is that I'm a junkie, and can almost never wait that long so I end up dosing 6-8mg while struggling with the mental anguish for 2-3 days until I stabilize.

 

[DickMcWickland]

If I don't wait long enough to dose Bupe, my experience is exactly the same as yours. You describe it perfectly. But if I spend 48hrs in withdrawals and then dose 2mg of Bupe, I actually get a buzz and feel perfectly fine. The issue is that I'm a junkie, and can almost never wait that long so I end up dosing 6-8mg while struggling with the mental anguish for 2-3 days until I stabilize.

Do you have a silly high tolerance as well? I ask because I have never waited more than 24 hours, but if what you're saying applies to a ~500mg oxy tolerance, I'd totally try to go 48 hours before dosing bupe. I have lots of kratom and gabapentin, a couple valium, and clonidine, so I could definitely do it assuming the first bupe dose makes me feel great instead of having to use the above method which, although I'm feeling good, is certainly prolonging the taper vs being able to start as low as 2mg.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I shoot 1-2G's of dope day; I am also a daily bupe user nowadays. this is not my first time on bupe or methadone; however, when it comes to bupe, I NEVER have to wait more than 8 hours to dose. when first starting out on bupe I usually wait 8-12 hours MAX before taking my first dose, which is ALWAYS 8MG! yes, 8MG is strong, but 8MG kill my urge to use, so ill stick w/ what works, esp. since I am scripted 16/MG daily.

also, there are days where I may be around the wrong people, or just get an urge, and I will end u buying dope. now I have WASTED plenty because I may have taken 16/MG the night before and 8MG at 8AM in the morning and here I am ready to shoot .5 shots at 8PM; yes, I get a small rush but the dope is WASTED and its just SAD! w/ that said, there have been many times where I have waited 12-16 hours after my last bupe for my first shot and have felt what I think in the full effect, or at least 75% of the shot.

one thing I learned about bupe over the many years is there is NO NEED to toy around w/ various doses throughout the day; just take what you need first thing in the AM and let the bupe play its part. yes, its a very strong drug, but realize you have a very strong dope habit as well, so there are days where 4MG, 8MG or even 12MG may not be enough to kill your urge, which is why I used the full 16/MG at times and when needed.

 

[DickMcWickland]

I shoot 1-2G's of dope day; I am also a daily bupe user nowadays. this is not my first time on bupe or methadone; however, when it comes to bupe, I NEVER have to wait more than 8 hours to dose. when first starting out on bupe I usually wait 8-12 hours MAX before taking my first dose, which is ALWAYS 8MG! yes, 8MG is strong, but 8MG kill my urge to use, so ill stick w/ what works, esp. since I am scripted 16/MG daily.

also, there are days where I may be around the wrong people, or just get an urge, and I will end u buying dope. now I have WASTED plenty because I may have taken 16/MG the night before and 8MG at 8AM in the morning and here I am ready to shoot .5 shots at 8PM; yes, I get a small rush but the dope is WASTED and its just SAD! w/ that said, there have been many times where I have waited 12-16 hours after my last bupe for my first shot and have felt what I think in the full effect, or at least 75% of the shot.

one thing I learned about bupe over the many years is there is NO NEED to toy around w/ various doses throughout the day; just take what you need first thing in the AM and let the bupe play its part. yes, its a very strong drug, but realize you have a very strong dope habit as well, so there are days where 4MG, 8MG or even 12MG may not be enough to kill your urge, which is why I used the full 16/MG at times and when needed.

That's great advice for someone on maintenance, but with my current goal of a rather quick taper (10-14 days), taking anything more than 6-8mg would be totally counterproductive. I totally agree with you though -- while it may only take a small dose to kill the majority of physical symptoms, my cravings only seem to lessen with doses of 16-32mg. I'm prescribed 16 as well, just like everyone who visits my doctor, even those with small hydro habits, lmao. Doctors know so much less about this drug than us addicts and it's frankly criminal that it's prescribed for anything less than moderately severe habits. With doing 1-2g a day and waiting only 8-12 hours, does the bupe actually make you feel good? Or is it like me in that it sucks for a few days?

 

[Bomb319]

Welcome to Bluelight! If you've been lurking here for awhile, you will know that this is generally a very friendly community and a great resource for practicing harm reduction techniques, or just sharing our experiences. THANK YOU for not using the ridiculous SWIM acronym on here as many people do when they first sign up. It does not protect you anyway and only complicates things.

I've also had a long experience with opiate addiction in one form or another (going on 8 years now) so if you have any questions or would like any tips, feel free to PM m anytime! I don't always log in every day, but sooner or later I will get your message. Congrats on choosing to go on maintenance therapy with Bupe! If it works well for you, that's great and more power to you. According to what seems to be the majority opinion around here, Bupe is generally a preferable alternative to methadone. Although the latter is a full mu-opioid receptor agonist, it seems to be much harder to come off of or even taper down compared to bupe. Another advantage for you is that if you DO eventually find that Bupe is no longer controlling your use or cravings, it is MUCH easier to switch from Bupe to Methadone than the reverse; going from 'Done to Bupe involves a very slow taper of methadone (sometimes only 1 or 2 mg every few weeks) until you get down to around 30 mg. At this point, some doctors reccommend that you "jump off" and will begin by giving a high dose of Bupe. The only problem with that is that as a partial agonist only, Bupe can and often will precipitate extreme withdrawal symptoms if you have any other full agonist in your system at the time - including methadone; therefore you must be completely clean for a certain period of time before making the switch, although I'm sure you already know that.

Anyways, good luck and welcome to the community!

 

[DickMcWickland]

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement and advice, Bomb! Although just to clarify, I have no intention of going on bupe maintenance and am merely attempting to use it as a detox tool over the course a couple weeks, possibly a month or two if I find the cravings unmanageable after the initial jump. I respect maintenance as a great option for people who've shown a propensity for relapse after relapse, but in my case, I'm simply not ready to resort to swapping one addiction for another. Sure it's through a doctor and, even out of pocket, a fraction of the cost of active dope addiction (people who complain about the cost of sub therapy seem to have lost the plot), but its long half life means the eventual detox from long term maintenance is surely worse than the few days of acute symptoms heroin involves. Plus I read about all the trial and error involved in these long tapers, constantly worrying about cutting strips into a million perfect little pieces in the final months, etc., and with all due respect, it seems like a huge burden. I recognize that staying clean without long term opiate replacement therapy will be a huge feat, I really do. It's just that I'm a lifelong athlete just getting back into several sports and working out daily, I have a new flourishing relationship with a great girl, and I'm a full time pharmacy school student and homeowner with a demanding job. I hope I don't come off as thinking myself holier than anyone else -- I'm only trying to illustrate that I have plenty of hobbies and other things to invest myself in, effectively filling the void of the scoring/preparing/using ritual, which is something most addicts simply don't do. In fact, I'm not sure I even believe in PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome) in people with addictions lasting fewer than 5-10 years. From what I've seen, people just get so used to the massive instant gratification provided by dope and they think normal is supposed to feel anywhere near as good, getting discouraged when it doesn't in the months following detox. If normal were so great, we wouldn't have given our lives to a drug in the first place. If one truly structures their time properly and does all the right things to get the endorphins flowing again as quickly as possible, relapse shouldn't be inevitable. But when I see people doing nothing but lying around feeling sorry for themselves, doing nothing to change the bad circumstances their addiction left them in (currently I'm in massive debt as a result of mine), well, of course it's a lot easier to blame "PAWS" for eventually giving in to the urge.

 

[Jabberwocky]

With doing 1-2g a day and waiting only 8-12 hours, does the bupe actually make you feel good? Or is it like me in that it sucks for a few days?

I am always shocked w/ how good I feel after taking full dose (16MG). most of the time I feel ON TOP OF THE WORLD and a normal person would think thats a good thing and you'd stay away from the bad stuff; yet when I feel ON TOP OF THE WORLD my mind thinks that if I shoot dope I'd feel even better. yes, its a very sick thought but it happens often.

I usually wake up and take 8MG by 9AM. that will last me throughout the day but there are times come 5PM I will start having urges and the texting/calling starts, so ill take another 4-8MG and within a half hour the urge is gone and I know I cant get high even if I got the best dope in town.

I use bupe based on my own cravings/needs. although ill always give myself that morning dose to get out of the house and actually feel "good/normal" throughout the morning but keep a few pills on me just incase the cravings come and I find myself looking for another type of fix.

 

[Ruby Slippers]

I think it always takes a couple of days to stabilize... l would use bupe the next morning after using, which means l would be in full withdrawals @ 8 hrs, and even though the sub would take away the worst of it l wouldn't feel good for a couple days.

 

[Jabberwocky]

once you get on a bupe program and are always using bupe but still dabbling w/ dope, it becomes norm and you always get the normal feeling once you take the bupe again. sure, you NEVER get the full effect of the dope because you are probably not waiting long enough, but you can always take the bupe within 8hrs and feel "normal" again. I am not talking about the people who do this once in a while, but the people who are scripted bupe and do this as a regular routine, such as myself. I wish I DIDNT DO THIS but I somehow cannot stop the dope, even tho I feel absolutely fine and actually GOOD!

 

[Hammilton]

I have a high tolerance, maybe about 300mg oxy to get high now. When I ran out and had to use subs the past couple days I waited until 36 hours and then took 4mg SL and 2mg snorted 2 hours later. Felt a mild buzz and about 90% better, no cravings but some real mild RLS. Next day 4mg SL and 2mg snorted again and felt a decent buzz, actually. Still, about 5 hours later when I wanted to sleep the RLS was back. Now yesterday took 2mg snorted and felt a stronger buzz than the previous 2 days, but again the RLS was back at bedtime so I took 1.25mg etizolam and good sleep, though I took it too late and was pretty groggy in the morning.

 

[DickMcWickland]

I have a high tolerance, maybe about 300mg oxy to get high now. When I ran out and had to use subs the past couple days I waited until 36 hours and then took 4mg SL and 2mg snorted 2 hours later. Felt a mild buzz and about 90% better, no cravings but some real mild RLS. Next day 4mg SL and 2mg snorted again and felt a decent buzz, actually. Still, about 5 hours later when I wanted to sleep the RLS was back. Now yesterday took 2mg snorted and felt a stronger buzz than the previous 2 days, but again the RLS was back at bedtime so I took 1.25mg etizolam and good sleep, though I took it too late and was pretty groggy in the morning.

You think snorting it is much more effective?

 

[Hammilton]

More effective? Yes and no. It definitely works faster, and I believe has a higher bioavailability. That can be neutralized by taking a little vodka or whatever liquor you've got on hand.

 

[RTrain]

If I don't wait long enough to dose Bupe, my experience is exactly the same as yours. You describe it perfectly. But if I spend 48hrs in withdrawals and then dose 2mg of Bupe, I actually get a buzz and feel perfectly fine. The issue is that I'm a junkie, and can almost never wait that long so I end up dosing 6-8mg while struggling with the mental anguish for 2-3 days until I stabilize.

I look at it like this, you might as well take the bupe as early as possible without it making your withdrawals worse. Sure, its not going to make them better because the bupe can't match your tolerance, pretty common with H. Of course, if you wait 48 hours, It is a rough 38-40 (I know w/d kicks in for me pretty quick, start feeling crappy around hour 8-10). If you just take the bupe in mild w/d then you probably won't get precipitated w/d, but it kind of just leaves you feeling crappy like 50% of a full withdrawal for the first day and it gets better pretty quickly. I can at least kind of function and usually get sleep with help of a benzo or benadryl on the first night. You might not stabilize as quick doing it that way, because your tolerance isn't dropping as rapidly if you are still doing a opiate, even it being a weak one. So its basically deciding if you want a 1 to 1-1/2 days of complete misery or 3 days of feeling pretty shitty, with each getting less painful.

I think it always takes a couple of days to stabilize... l would use bupe the next morning after using, which means l would be in full withdrawals @ 8 hrs, and even though the sub would take away the worst of it l wouldn't feel good for a couple days.

Basically how I do it, I will try to knock myself the night/morning before I start subs to sleep enough to at least get past 10, try to get to 12 or 14 hours. I clearly metabolize fasts so I am having bad withdrawals upon waking everyday. Usually I take the bupe and I kind of get an initially improved feeling which fades quickly and I feel back to how I was, maybe I have a little more energy than before. Still I feel awful for that first day and days 2 and 3 aren't great. But by days 5 or 6 I able to exercise strenuously and perform adequately at work. I'd just rather not deal with full in withdrawal for a full day, I know the sub will works better, but that is a brutal day, worse than the other way.

BTW, I have done what the OP stated before and commented on threads about it. Its not a bad idea and works IMO. Its not just a theory. You can even stretch it out to 2 or 3 days or using after dosing your Subs. Just cutting the dope dose down each time. But don't do it if you don't feel you need to help ease the induction. I know it takes me 3 or 4 days to feel decent on subs, so this method helps as an almost forced taper, because the Sub is blocking the full extent of the dope and outlasts it.

 

[bupebailey]

OP or Anyone with any help please do so asap Thanks so much!

This last induction attempt was different and here's where I get to the point of the thread. I did 2mg of bupe at the undeniable onset of my heroin withdrawals and continued to dose another 2mg each hour until my physical withdrawal symptoms had mostly subsided, totaling 6mg to hold me for the most part. Of course, I still felt achy, depressed, and incredibly lethargic for the next day and a half, even after redosing with another 4mg every 8-12 hours

My plan was to do a .5g shot 8 hours after my last 4mg sub dose, knowing it would be partially blocked but hoping it would feel nice anyway. I'd say the dope's effects were 75% reduced, but I immediately felt great -- the mental fog of depression, anhedonia and lethargy was gone. I woke up the next morning, 12 hours later, still feeling very good. 18 hours in, when I'd normally be back in heroin withdrawal, the sub was still holding me, and much better than prior to taking the heroin -- no trouble climbing stairs or doing anything that needed to be done. At this point, I redosed 4mg bupe, and proceeded feeling good well into the third day.

So Ive done basically the same thing. I built up to a total of about 32 mg of bupe over the past 1 1/2 days then did two hefty shots, the last being about 13 hours ago. im experiencing some mild leg cramps and would like some advice on when I can/should redose on the bupe and what amount recommended. any advice much appreciated and as quickly as possible. thank you for any input or advise.