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Slow Wave Sleep and Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor

Matthew Reece

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Jan 28, 2010
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31
Are there any easily available pharmacological agents, food, or activities that promote slow wave sleep or enhance the release of brain-derived neurotrophic factor?

Or for that matter, any agents that will repair putative MDMA damage to the prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate cortex, or will simply improve the quality and "refreshingness" of my sleep, or promote neurogenesis?

I know exercise is one such activity. Any others?
 
Are you having trouble sleeping, or other unwanted symptoms, after using MDMA?

MDMA even causing damage in moderate, responsible use, or at all is debated.

I don't know about any particular agents to repair damage through neurogenesis, but maybe these links will help you:

Cortical Serotonin Transporter Density and Verbal Memory in Individuals Who Stopped Using 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or "Ecstasy")

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/58/10/901

Does MDMA Cause Brain Damage? by Matthew Baggott, BA, and John Mendelson, MD
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml
 
I know there has to be some newer studies out there. These are almost a decade old. I think there were some from 08 or 09 that concluded the same thing: that mdma is not as neurotoxic as they thought. Anyone got a link?
 
Are you having trouble sleeping, or other unwanted symptoms, after using MDMA?

Apparently I'm sleeping just fine (according to a sleep study I underwent), but I've had problems with episodic memory and multitasking for about 5 years after using MDMA, so I'm trying to get my brain to "heal".

I figure SWS or BDNF might help.

MDMA even causing damage in moderate, responsible use, or at all is debated.

I think this is because there is a genetic difference between people who are susceptible to its neurotoxicity and those who aren't, which confounds all studies to date. (Or I and some others got something that wasn't pure MDMA).

I don't know about any particular agents to repair damage through neurogenesis, but maybe these links will help you:


Cortical Serotonin Transporter Density and Verbal Memory in Individuals Who Stopped Using 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or "Ecstasy")

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/58/10/901

This one says that verbal memory deficits continued after serotonin transporter density returned to normal.

Does MDMA Cause Brain Damage? by Matthew Baggott, BA, and John Mendelson, MD
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml

This article almost contradicts itself: "A growing number of studies describe differences between ecstasy users and nonusers. These studies have serious limitations, but suggest that some ecstasy users experience serotonergic changes and cognitive alterations. In contrast to studies of illicit users, the few controlled clinical trials with MDMA in healthy volunteers have reportedly not found evidence of cognitive changes, despite cerebral blood flow alterations in one study."

Unfortunately, I'm a bit of an exception. I never took any illicit drugs before I took MDMA (except for alcohol). Of course, my case wasn't a controlled clinical trial, but I was healthy (short of anxiety issues) at the time.

Anyway, I'm just looking for some way to make a full or partial-recovery.
 
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Apparently I'm sleeping just fine (according to a sleep study I underwent), but I've had problems with episodic memory and multitasking for about 5 years after using MDMA, so I'm trying to get my brain to "heal".

That sucks, I have had problems sleeping (most likely not drug related) and the sleep study I took also told me how fine I was. I sure didn't feel fine.

To jog your memory just a little, it might help trying to play a game online where the board shows you all the tiles, then flips them over, and you have to pair them. I know, cheesy sounding, but it very well could help a little bit with memory, or even multitasking.

I think this is because there is a genetic difference between people who are susceptible to its neurotoxicity and those who aren't, which confounds all studies to date. (Or I and some others got something that wasn't pure MDMA).

Makes complete sense.

If MDMA has one toxic metabolite, and 90% of people possess the enzyme to metabolize it quickly, the 10% who lack this enzyme will be stuck with the toxic metabolite longer at higher doses.*

*-I'm not saying this is a mechanism of action for MDMA neurotoxicity, just an example of how genetics could play a role.

This article almost contradicts itself: "A growing number of studies describe differences between ecstasy users and nonusers. These studies have serious limitations

It does almost, but, I just think it proves the difficulty in proving neurotoxicity.

But most studies involving street drugs are hard to control and always have serious limitations. I mean, no one knows whether the tablets they received were pure MDMA unless they GC/MS the stuff. Even the Marquis and other reagents can't tell without a doubt that what you've got is completely 100% pure shit with just a few fillers, no other actives.


Unfortunately, I'm a bit of an exception. I never took any illicit drugs before I took MDMA (except for alcohol). Of course, my case wasn't a controlled clinical trial, but I was healthy (short of anxiety issues) at the time.

Anyway, I'm just looking for some way to make a full or partial-recovery.

That is a pretty big exception.

Most people don't start out with MDMA.

As mentioned above, I have sleeping issues as well. I just received the phenibut (Beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid) I ordered.

I haven't tried it yet, but I'll let you know if I feel any relief. Some people report going past 5g of the stuff, and having what they compare to mild to moderate benzodiazepine withdrawal.

The stuff I got is in 250mg capsules, so I plan on staying in the lower dose range. 1-3 capsules, with one good high test dose (after initial low test dose) to get a feel for it.
 
^ Phenibut is great for me for anxiety but not for sleep. and watch out for tolerance. tolerance builds rapidly.
 
also - mdma, from what I have read affects serotonin axons in the raphe nuclei - which is part of the brain stem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphe_nuclei

any idea on how to regenerate this part of the brain? bdnf?

also, does anyone know if downregulation can occur for long periods of time? for example, can serotonin receptors downregulate for up to a year or more?
 
That sucks, I have had problems sleeping (most likely not drug related) and the sleep study I took also told me how fine I was. I sure didn't feel fine.

To jog your memory just a little, it might help trying to play a game online where the board shows you all the tiles, then flips them over, and you have to pair them. I know, cheesy sounding, but it very well could help a little bit with memory, or even multitasking.

I will try that. I hope it makes a difference.

Makes complete sense.

If MDMA has one toxic metabolite, and 90% of people possess the enzyme to metabolize it quickly, the 10% who lack this enzyme will be stuck with the toxic metabolite longer at higher doses.*

*-I'm not saying this is a mechanism of action for MDMA neurotoxicity, just an example of how genetics could play a role.

I'm glad it makes sense to you. Hopefully, we will be cited in future pharmacology and genetics journal articles regarding MDMA.

It does almost, but, I just think it proves the difficulty in proving neurotoxicity.

But most studies involving street drugs are hard to control and always have serious limitations. I mean, no one knows whether the tablets they received were pure MDMA unless they GC/MS the stuff. Even the Marquis and other reagents can't tell without a doubt that what you've got is completely 100% pure shit with just a few fillers, no other actives.

Yeah. My own doctors can't agree on the cause of my symptoms. I suspect a few of them might have even taken MDMA without ever encountering cognitive deficits, which is why sometimes they brush-off the connection as unlikely.

That is a pretty big exception.

Most people don't start out with MDMA.

I would imagine most people don't. Because MDMA is in pill form, it always seemed more appealing than smoking pot or snorting some other substance. It seemed clean - more like taking a medicine than anything else.

I thought it would help me with my anxiety.

As mentioned above, I have sleeping issues as well. I just received the phenibut (Beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid) I ordered.

I haven't tried it yet, but I'll let you know if I feel any relief. Some people report going past 5g of the stuff, and having what they compare to mild to moderate benzodiazepine withdrawal.

The stuff I got is in 250mg capsules, so I plan on staying in the lower dose range. 1-3 capsules, with one good high test dose (after initial low test dose) to get a feel for it.

I hope that works for you. Let me know how it goes.
 
It is a very good paper. Are you saying I should use a time machine to go to the future when these anti-insomnia drugs are developed? Or are you saying I should go back in time and not take ecstasy?

I think he meant the former.

But it does make sense, why go ahead in the future to get drugs to fix you when you could reverse damage?

But technically (if one can even be technical about this stuff?), even if you traveled back in time, your brain would still be damaged. You wouldn't age in reverse. You'd meet yourself, then, before you did MDMA, but you'd still be fucked up.
 
I think he meant the former.

But it does make sense, why go ahead in the future to get drugs to fix you when you could reverse damage?

But technically (if one can even be technical about this stuff?), even if you traveled back in time, your brain would still be damaged. You wouldn't age in reverse. You'd meet yourself, then, before you did MDMA, but you'd still be fucked up.

That's true. :( However, I might be able to buy the pill from myself, and have it analyzed, just in case it wasn't ecstasy. That might give me some leads on how to proceed.
 
It is a very good paper. Are you saying I should use a time machine to go to the future when these anti-insomnia drugs are developed? Or are you saying I should go back in time and not take ecstasy?

You're halfway serious about this? You're not just being witty?

The thing that keeps me sane, it seems, is the attitude that I'm supposed to have fucked up my life: that even though a lot of mistakes have been made, things couldn't possibly have turned out better: that fucking up is part of being human and those that don't fuck up are the weirdos. This doesn't make me happy, but it makes me not give a shit: and that's really all I want--to just not give a shit.

BUT NO! On the NATURE paper there's one compound I'm awaiting like it's the Second Coming. I'm not gonna name it cuz I've already done so too many times, but maybe you can ask the maternally-deprived rodents about it.

It potentially does everything you mentioned in your OP, but we won't know for sure (if at all) for another three years--when it's scheduled to hit the market (if approved).
 
You're halfway serious about this? You're not just being witty?

I have a sense of humor. I think.

The thing that keeps me sane... that fucking up is part of being human

It's possible that if people don't make mistakes, they aren't taking potentially worthwhile risks.

BUT NO! On the NATURE paper there's one compound I'm awaiting like it's the Second Coming. I'm not gonna name it cuz I've already done so too many times, but maybe you can ask the maternally-deprived rodents about it.

It potentially does everything you mentioned in your OP, but we won't know for sure (if at all) for another three years--when it's scheduled to hit the market (if approved).

Almorexant. Sigh. Why so long?
 
Since I've already started this thread, does any one know of any pharmaceutical agents that improve episodic memory?
 
Hi Matthew,

I was just about to create a similar topic to yours when I saw this one. I'm also after ways to repair certain damage that I did to my brain as result of drugs, mine was however more of an overdose that left me disabled but I can certainly use some of the advice given on this thread.

After years of investigating my symptoms it has now been concluded that my condtion is result of generalised damage to Serotonin (5HT) terminals in the brain and other neurotransmitters and the symtoms Im having are due to loss of functional neurons, a specialist has suggested that I try various medications that interact with hypothalamic neurotransmitters to see if they help. He suggested Cabergoline increases dopamine, fluoxetine increases 5HT, while venlafaxine increases both noradrenaline and 5HT, but it is uncertain yet whether my condition is due to overactivity or under activity of the mentioned brain chemicals.

I wish you all the best in finding the right help.
 
Hi Unlucky,

I read a little about your condition. Sounds like things are rough for you. I certainly hope you find the right help as well. Please let us know if you make any progress. Although your situation may be more severe or different, I know I could benefit from knowing what helps you get through it.
 
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