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Sleep supplements that do NOT work on GABA receptors & preferrably doesn't block REM?

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LindsaySparkle

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Sleep supplements that do NOT work on GABA receptors & preferrably doesn't block REM?

First of all, thank you for this forum. I just read a rather detailed thread entitled "GABA receptors & Sedatives/Hypnotics," so I'm hoping I can get some help finding some sleep supplements that do not work on GABA receptors (& preferably don't hinder REM.)

Some background information: For years I was on high dosage xanax (6+ mg/day), which ultimately increased the frequency and intensity of panic attacks to a non-bearable level. I ended up stopping taking them, and after a few years of withdrawals I am finally past the panic attacks and general anhedonia. I can also sleep quite well most nights. The exception is if I am excited about anything at all the next day (going to a new restaurant, taking an exam), I will not be able to sleep that night and it will make me miserable for the big night. So I would like to take some supplements on those nights that will help me sleep.

I have taken valerian root, which worked wonders, but eventually triggered a 2-week period of anxiety. Melatonin doesn't really work for me. Years ago, I used to take Ambien. I am scared to try that or Lunesta, etc because of their similarities to benzodiazepines, and because if I take them and only sleep 6 hours or so then I feel like a handicapped zombie.

Taking something like diphenhydramine works, but then I feel very dull mentally the next day.

Does anyone here have any thoughts or suggestions of things I could try? I'm not looking for something to take every day, just maybe once every 1-2 weeks.
 
Unfortunately the most effective sleeping aids I have ever tried all have something to do with GABA. However the ones I recommend act on GABA much differently to benzodiazepines/z-drugs and therefore you won't encounter the complications you do with the these.

I find L-theanine to be quite useful for calming the mind and helping me have a restful sleep, however this may not be so useful for your situation as it sounds like you have trouble actually getting to sleep.

Usually I wouldn't recommend phenibut to help for sleep as one can become reliant on it if used too often, and sleep problems are often frequent. However in your case it is perfect as you only need it 1-2 times a week and this is roughly the maximum frequency it can be used for without developing a tolerance to it. If you take anywhere from 500mg-1g roughly 2-3 hours before you plan to sleep you'll have a very deep and restful sleep and wake feeling refreshed and sharp, at least that it is the case for myself. I can't comment on it's effects on sleep architecture as I don't know about that, but a bit of research should uncover such answers.

It's effects are mediated through GABA-B (and benzodiazepines through GABA-A) so their effect profiles are rather different. The sleep is actually rejuvenating rather than just knocking you out and you feel cognitively on top of it the next day, perhaps even more so than normal ime. So yeah, this shit is perfect for your situation. There is no cross tolerance with benzodiazepines and as long as you don't take it more than once a week your body will not become acclimatised to it. Don't be afraid of the acronym 'GABA', it's not all-encompassing.
 
KingBlueTwista, I really appreciate that you took the time to respond to my post and I will try out your suggestions. I will admit that I am a bit afraid of the GABA acronym because of my prior experience with valerian root & because I am very afraid of restarting those extremely long and unpleasant withdrawals. I understand what you are saying about it being different though :)

I will also look into L-theanine, because my problem is actually that my mind starts racing and I can't get it to stop. If it would just shut up for a second I would have no problem sleeping :)

Thanks again!
 
I concur on the phenibut - it is great in short term cycles (no more than 4 days on, 3 days off to be on the safe side). And it definitely will give you a good night's sleep. If you have a natural addictive nature be careful with it because it can be almost as bad as benzos if misused.
 
If you have compromised sleep only twice a month I would be hesitant to recommend a pharmacological solution, be it OTC or prescribed.

I must ask; have you tried to intensive exercise either as regular routine or on days on/surround the 'anticipated event'? This may sound like a trivial question at face value, but people can actually get rather defensive about this question.
 
Oh and LindsaySparkle - be really careful experimenting with L-Theanine. As I am sure you know, a lot of us who are or have been dependent on benzos have opposite reactions to things than we should. I actually had a panic attack both times I tried L-Theanine - green tea itself gives them to me - so be careful.

I do agree with negrogesic though - if its only twice a month (I didn't see that part), I would not recommend a phamacological solution either. I think that's actually pretty normal for people to have problems two or three times a month. And you don't want to take the chance that you end up shocking your system with something and going back through any part of the withdrawal process. Good catch negrogesic.
 
kava!! there is nothing better for an insomniac in the world. You wake up refreshed, not tired like with ambien.
 
^^ before you go downing a buncha pills/capsules of kava form your local pharmacy store do some research about it. Learn the proper way it has been used by native cultures. Specifically take note of which parts of the plant can be toxic to your liver and make sure anything you are buying is free of those parts of the plant.

Aside from that - is kava not GABA mediated sedation; which the OP is explicitly trying to avoid.

Have you tried Doxylamine ? Its just a bout the next most popular OTC Anti-histamine based sedative. I don't know if you will experience the same side affects the next day as you do with DPH. Its cheap and can be found in many stores so its worth giving it a shot.

I'd say if you are only having trouble a few ties a month then something as simple as doxylamine or diphenhydramine should be all you need. Just plan ahead. If you know you may have some morning grogginess from the dph then try to go to sleep earlier, wake up earlier, get some exercise, eat a square meal, Have a cup of tea or coffee, etc.. get you blood flowing and the brain working.
 
You sound like someone who's done a lot of reading but not much actual doing. I mean as little offense as possible.

Kava is simply the best insomnia herb there is. I challenge you to find a brand that uses the toxic parts of the plant; that was a fiasco the FDA blew way out of proportion. It was because of greed.

"Hawaiian researchers learned from a trader in Fijian kava that European pharmaceutical companies eagerly bought up the stem and leaves peelings when demand for kava extract soared in Europe in 2000 and 2001. Before 2002, substantial amounts of aerial parts of the kava plant were being exported to North America and Europe and obviously used for the production of commercial pill extracts. For traditional use in the South Pacific, stem peelings and leaves are discarded, and only the rhizomes are used and extracted with water. This may explain why native populations that make heavy use of kava experience side effects that are mild, temporary, and confined to the skin, whereas industrialized countries that have newly adopted kava occasionally show severe, acute responses."


from wikipedia

"Kava has similar effects to benzodiazepine medications, including muscle relaxant, anaesthetic, anticonvulsive and anxiolytic effects. They are thought to result from direct interactions of kavalactones with voltage-gated ion channels. Research currently suggests that kavalactones potentiate GABAa activity but do not alter levels of dopamine and serotonin in the CNS."


"The effects of a kava drink vary widely with the particular selection of kava plant(s) and amount. A potent drink results in a faster onset with a lack of stimulation; the user's eyes become sensitive to light, the person soon becomes somnolent and then has deep, dreamless sleep within 30 minutes. Sleep is often restful and there are pronounced periods of sleepiness correlating to the amount and potency of kava consumed. After wakening the drinker usually does not experience any mental or physical after effects. However, this sleep has been reported as extremely restful and the user often wakes up more stimulated than he or she normally would (though excessive consumption of exceptionally potent brew has been known to cause pronounced sleepiness into the next day). Although heavy doses can cause deep dreamless sleep, it is reported that many people experience lighter sleep and rather vivid dreams after drinking moderate amounts of kava."


So basically, yes, it does work somewhat with GABA, but that doesn't mean it isn't still an option, as that's not it's single pathway of action in the brain.

It's as simple as this. If someone is asking me, "How can I sleep better?" and they haven't tried kava yet, well goddamnit, they NEED to try kava. If that doesn't work, you're pretty much fucked and will need some ambien or benadryl.
 
cryptix420 - you're missing the entire point. People that have withdrawn from benzodiazepines can go through withdrawal all over again whenever GABAergics are involved. A drug could have 50 million other things that it does - the fact that it potentiates GABA puts the OP at risk for going right back into withdrawal.

And by the way I have never gotten a damn thing from kava except a mild drunkenness.
 
Taking something like diphenhydramine works, but then I feel very dull mentally the next day.
Click to expand...

I think this may be one of your best bets if you wanna avoid GABA, as has been mentioned many herbals actually act on GABA too. It may be worth buying some choline supplements to help with the mental sluggishness you get from it. Piracetam also works well for that, and combines well with choline.
 
x er size

I understand the op's concern for non-GABA induced sleep as all GABA-agonists block REM sleep which is poor for life. Slowing down you're brain to the point of which is essentially incapacitating is not the same as falling asleep and dreaming. Dreaming is a very important part of life; the benefits of which heavily outweigh what is essentially hitting yourself in the head with a hammer until you pass out.

I will say, if you want to use the hammer method, Kava is natural.

On that note I'd say exercise is by far the safest most effective method to fall asleep. It has a plethora of other benefits too. Don't discard it like a faggot.
 
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What about melatonin? I used to take this infrequently some nights and it helped put me off to sleep. Not sure if it affects gaba though.
 
Orexin antagonists are an entirely new class of sleep-inducing medications, but to date none have been successfully commercialized. Mechanistically, they can be considered the opposite of the wakefullness promotor Provigil.
 
melatonin has no GABA-ergic effects; that much is true. Melatonin is also not really a sedative. It helps regulate your bodies Circadian Rhythm (internal clock) and can help with things like jet lag, shift workers type insomnia, etc. Some people swear by it. Its worth trying as its OTC and cheap. But it is not going to 'knock you' out in the way DPH, Doxylamine, or anything GABA-ergic will.

I'm interested to see where Orxein antagonists lead in the future. for the time being there aren't a lot of other options:
Melatonin
Other melatonin based drugs (Ramelteon)
Kava (Gaba-ergic)
Valerian (Gaba-ergic)
DPH
Doxylamine
Rx anti-histamines (mirtazipine, trazadone [these have a plethora of other effects but do offer sedation])
 
Hydroxyzine is pretty sedating too... and with fewer side effects than DPH... plus it has the added bonus of being an anxiolytic. Maybe look into that route? It is known as Atarax or Vistaril in the states.

Dramamine (dimenhydrinate) and Marezine (cyclizine) are also useful as sedatives...
 
I think it might be worth it for the OP to try Clonidine.

It will definately help with being over-excited during bedtime seeing how it reduces the things that excite your body and brain (such as norepinephrine). I find that the effects on blood pressure etc kind of mimic the natural things my body does when going to sleep mode. I'm in the same boat of not wanting to use GABAergics because of former benzo addiction, this type of drug feels very safe regarding that. I find there's a potent anxiolytic effect as well with clonidine... Also for me it seems to reduce the amount and intensity of nightmares.

Don't take too much though, otherwise you may find it makes you kinda lazy the next morning/day because there's not enough stress hormones to keep you going.
 
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