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Sincerity? Criticism?

wastedwalrus

wastedwalrus

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
2,249
I've found that this forum lacks much sincerity and criticism in the responses. Most of the commentaries regarding the poems are pretty simple or just "I like it". It seems to me that, in order to make this a more respectable place to present literary work, we shouldn't hesitate to speak our minds and certainly not produce commentaries that are only a few lines long.

Sharing art is a two-sided process. The artist shares it, then the audience enjoys it, hates it, comments on it, etc. I'd like to encourage people to give their replies a little more though and examine the poems/prose more carefully.

Nothing bothers me more when I feel like someone's comment is insincere or not truthful. I welcome criticism... it's what allows a writer to understand his writing better and to develop.

So, what is everyone's thoughts about this? I'm not trying to be an asshole... quite the contrary. My intention is to bring more substance to Words

Thanks,
Jason
 
Have you read the guidelines? The idea is that you'll only get criticism if you specifically ask for it. Otherwise, the rule is positive feedback only.

In my opinion, the Words folk are reasonably honest in expressing their opinions once you let them know your piece is open for critique.
 
Personally I like to know if someone hates my work more than if they love it.

I wrote it, I dont care if you love it. I want to know what you don't like about it. Both to see how people respond (does it make them angry or sad). And most importantly, I want to know why people don't like it to improve.

Thats not to say that positive appreciates and comments aren't welcome, its always great to feel appreciate, or to reinforce what you are doing right.
 
(Wordy) said:
Have you read the guidelines? The idea is that you'll only get criticism if you specifically ask for it. Otherwise, the rule is positive feedback only.

In my opinion, the Words folk are reasonably honest in expressing their opinions once you let them know your piece is open for critique.
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I'm aware of the guidelines. However, it feels to me that it is not just a guideline but a restricting rule. It makes me think that people are apprehensive to speak their minds because they're worried about possible censorship if the commentary isn't entirely praise. It strikes me as a bit... fascist ;)
 
Well, I personally attempt to be supportive, as I've told you earlier, in order to spur more creativity out of people who put in the time to share something. I'm just not a very critical guy.

I have, however, recieved constructive criticism in a poem I didn't mark for critique, and it actually was appreciated. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I personally would accept criticism if it isn't framed in a spiteful manner.
 
Of course. I'm not encouraging people to be cruel or harsh, just more open.

I actually posted a poem a few weeks ago just as an experiment. It was awful... no doubt. I wrote it in under a minute and gave it absolutely no thought. However, I received the same type of comments that I always get and that everybody else gets. If desired, I'll add the poem to the thread but it doesn't seem necessary. So what I found was, the quality and the content of the poem have little impact on the comments made by most people.
 
I try to be honest, but i know what you mean wastedwalrus.

Most of the time i am too tired from working for a bank in an incredibly fast paced position to be able to formulate deep critiques of what i am reading. Infact I would love to be able to read every single poem and reply as to what it did for me but i just don't have the will.

You understand eh?
 
I think there's a few reasons behind it...let me count them down with bullet points as I do love my bullet points: :)
  • As previously mentioned, the guidelines....it's generally not the done thing to criticise someone's work unless they ask for it - if you feel that you're not receiving appropriately critical comments on your work because of this, there's an easy fix: ask for a critique. I have done this on occasion and have generally had people give me a solid indication as to what they thought worked or didn't work.
  • Sensitivity: we're generally all nice people, and nobody wants to look like an asshole. So it's easier if you don't like something simply not to comment, rather than risk hurting someone's feelings by what you might think of as constructive criticism, but they may see as an attack.
  • Sometimes the writer isn't looking for a critique, sometimes writing is more a personal or cathartic thing....I have written plenty of stuff about my mum's death or my nephew's death or my history with cutting and depression that is purely there for my need to express it; while I'm happy if doing that helps someone else in any way, I'm not looking at it as a technical piece of writing, and it would feel weird for it to be judged like that in some cases because it is so personal.
  • Most of us aren't actually professional critics: it's easy to know if you like or don't like something, it can be a lot harder to enunciate exactly why that is....and so it is that you get a lot of "wow, I really liked that" (I know I'm definitely as guilty of doing this as anyone else is) simply because a lot of people don't have the aptitude or the time to sit down and actually analyse exactly what it was about that piece that grabbed you.
All just my opinion of course.. :)

EDIT: Dang, I knew there was something else I meant to mention.....the bit where you said you churned out a piece of crap just to test the sincerity of replies; you can't predict what people will or won't like, I've found. I have written pieces that I was massively proud of and checked back every day until they dropped off the page for comments only to find there may have been lots of looks but no comments. Conversely I have written stuff that I really didn't think that much of myself that people love. You can't predict what people will or won't relate to in your writing, no matter what you think of it yourself or what your intention was in writing it.. :)
 
Raz said:
I think there's a few reasons behind it...let me count them down with bullet points as I do love my bullet points: :)
  • As previously mentioned, the guidelines....it's generally not the done thing to criticise someone's work unless they ask for it - if you feel that you're not receiving appropriately critical comments on your work because of this, there's an easy fix: ask for a critique. I have done this on occasion and have generally had people give me a solid indication as to what they thought worked or didn't work.
  • Sensitivity: we're generally all nice people, and nobody wants to look like an asshole. So it's easier if you don't like something simply not to comment, rather than risk hurting someone's feelings by what you might think of as constructive criticism, but they may see as an attack.
  • Sometimes the writer isn't looking for a critique, sometimes writing is more a personal or cathartic thing....I have written plenty of stuff about my mum's death or my nephew's death or my history with cutting and depression that is purely there for my need to express it; while I'm happy if doing that helps someone else in any way, I'm not looking at it as a technical piece of writing, and it would feel weird for it to be judged like that in some cases because it is so personal.
  • Most of us aren't actually professional critics: it's easy to know if you like or don't like something, it can be a lot harder to enunciate exactly why that is....and so it is that you get a lot of "wow, I really liked that" (I know I'm definitely as guilty of doing this as anyone else is) simply because a lot of people don't have the aptitude or the time to sit down and actually analyse exactly what it was about that piece that grabbed you.
All just my opinion of course.. :)

EDIT: Dang, I knew there was something else I meant to mention.....the bit where you said you churned out a piece of crap just to test the sincerity of replies; you can't predict what people will or won't like, I've found. I have written pieces that I was massively proud of and checked back every day until they dropped off the page for comments only to find there may have been lots of looks but no comments. Conversely I have written stuff that I really didn't think that much of myself that people love. You can't predict what people will or won't relate to in your writing, no matter what you think of it yourself or what your intention was in writing it.. :)
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Everything said above is a mere regurgitation of what several people have already said, what the thread "guidelines" lay out, and what I already know. So of course Wordy agrees with it... it was his job to enforce it. I like what IXinX said, because it's true. A lot of us don't have time to right authentic commentaries. So then, why bother to write shallow flattery when you can find the time later to tell the author what you truly like about it (or dislike about it).

Because of the comments and lack of actual reading in this forum, there's not a whole lot of substance.

I'm sure the argument comes off as being a bit offensive (which is not my intention) but writers should savor this kind of opportunity =D
 
Look, don’t get me wrong, I can definitely see your point.

Speaking for myself, when replying to people's work in here, whether as a member or a moderator, I've generally taken the view that it's better to acknowledge that you've read someone's work than to just read it and not reply. And when replying, I try to say something positive about the piece; perhaps I’ll just pick out a single line that grabs me. Or failing that, I'll relate the piece to something more personal, or perhaps more general. Maybe I'll ask a question about what inspired the piece, or whatever. But if someone asks, “What do you think is wrong with this poem?” my response would probably be quite different. I don’t think this represents insincerity. It’s all about context.

Sharing art is a two-sided process. The artist shares it, then the audience enjoys it, hates it, comments on it, etc. I'd like to encourage people to give their replies a little more though and examine the poems/prose more carefully.
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You seem to be overlooking the fact that not everyone in this forum is trying to produce a work of art per se (whatever that might be). This isn't to say that they don't take their writing seriously. But like Raz mentioned, some people who post their stuff in Words are doing so as catharsis, to get something off their chest, to express personal thoughts and feelings - they're not looking for critique; they're not looking to 'improve' their work - it just is what it is. They just want to share something of themselves with other people.

So bearing all of that in mind, I don't think it's fair to critique a piece unless it's clear that the poster is open to critique. Would you critique a piece of writing which appears to be a suicide note? Extreme example, perhaps, but we do get that sort of thing in Words from time to time. Would you critique a journal entry, or a poem about a loved one who had been diagnosed with cancer? Bear in mind that you can't always assume what the writer’s intention is, or where a piece of writing is coming from. So I think it’s only fair to set ‘positive feedback’ as the default position, as a protective measure. And even when it comes to writers who are striving to create a ‘work of art’, some of these writers may not be comfortable with receiving criticism – for many writers, confidence in their own ability has to develop before they’re prepared to ‘put themselves out there’ and receive criticism. Everyone is different, and everyone has their own threshold – some people might be comfortable receiving criticism in private, but not in a ‘public’ space like the Words forum, which their friends might be reading.

At the end of the day, it’s a double-edged sword. Having a rule that allows for positive feedback only probably means that the feedback becomes a bit predictable and stilted (although it could be argued that the only limits are your imagination). On the other hand, if there was no restriction on critique, I’m pretty sure this would lead to many people’s feelings getting hurt, arguments, inappropriate comments, flaming, grudges… in short, it would all in end in tears. I think we have a happy medium, where you can have your work critiqued if you ask for it.
 
I for one am very glad there's not carte blanche on criticism here. I simply wouldn't post. Simple as that.

I'm not looking to "improve" as a writer or blah blah blah, poetry is simply a venting outlet for me, a creative space to play in, and there's no way I'd welcome a critique when that's not what I'm looking for. It's not my aim here.

Ironically, because I know my writing won't be ripped to shreds this forum has encouraged me to write more in the last few months than I have in the past 10 years. Simply having an audience, however passive, is a huge inspiration. (whether that increased output is actually mainly crap I have no idea and don't care; it's served its purpose for me.)

The Words guidelines encourage participation and save this place from becoming elitist and unwelcoming - which is the last thing even serious writers should want, if no-one's reading you, or this place is dead what's the point?

If you want criticism say "Please critique". It's pretty simple ;) Believe me I've seen some pretty "sincere" (euphamism: harsh) critiques here when they've been asked for.
 
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I am beginning to see where everyone is coming from. I understand that it's discouraging to some people and that some people simply want to post. I just find it a shame that a forum would be degrated to such a low status... mere catharsis? Isn't that the purpose of Journal?

I guess I'm used to a level of standards since I'm coming from more of the disciplined forums on BL (OD, for example) and from more intense poetry message boards. So, I apologize. It just seems like this forum is so... well, fake. Sorry but I cannot put it any other way.

Again, I have never intended to arouse hostility. I'm simply making an observation and I hope no one will hold this against me (though perhaps I deserve it since I am pretty fucking opinionated). All I want is what's best for Words. It's that simple.
 
No qualms here mate :) I think discussion is great, and the mods would agree with me.

Ultimately it should be the users of the forum who dictate how it should run. Everyone should be allowed to have a voice, dissenting or no.
 
I saw that this thread was about to drop off the front page, and it occurred to me that I still hadn't said everything I wanted to say on the topic.

I think it needs to be emphasised that there has been a considerable amount of feedback in the past from Bluelighters who find the Words forum intimidating, and often don't feel comfortable posting their writing in here because they don't think it's up to the ‘required calibre’.

I guess it’s subjective, but these feelings must be based on a perception of the forum which is very different from my own. Personally I've always found Words to have a welcoming, encouraging atmosphere - not elitist at all. And I think this should be preserved.

wastedwalrus said:
I just find it a shame that a forum would be degrated to such a low status... mere catharsis? Isn't that the purpose of Journal?
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Cathartic writing is just one example of writing which isn’t necessarily appropriate for critique. There were other examples given, and many more can be found just by opening some of the threads in the forum. The simple fact is, not every piece of writing posted in Words is aiming at ‘literary greatness’. And as far as the Journal goes, some people choose to post stuff in their journal, whereas others prefer to post it here to get a wider (or at least different) audience. Personally I wouldn’t want Words to be restricted to creative / artistic writing only – I love the fact that we get all sorts of different stuff in here. In fact, I’d love to see a bit more non-fiction (we do get a bit from time to time).

Bottom line: I think the danger of removing the ‘positive feedback only’ rule is that the forum could easily become elitist and intimidating. Remember that Bluelight isn’t a specifically literary board – it has a different focus, and Words is catering to all kinds of writers, and discussion of the written word. I think there’s still plenty of room for serious critique of creative writing within the current guidelines. If people want critique, they’ll ask for it – and (almost always) get it. It’s up to the individual, as I think it should be.
 
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You make a good point but, bear in mind I never said the criticism should be harsh or unfriendly. I only said that this "positive feedback only" rule is fake and ignorant. In order for anyone to respect anyone else I think that if someone sees a flaw they should express it politely... not throw flattery at an awful poem.

I was hoping the thread would fade away because it's a bullshit argument and my effort is redundant because it's me versus the forum. Eh... ignorance is bliss, I suppose ;).
 
I agree that it's better to express criticism politely, than to "throw flattery" at a poem which you think is awful.
 
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