Simons - reation to yellow!?, Mandelin - purple then green trails?!

[Ekstasis-//7]

Simons - reaction to yellow!?, Mandelin - purple then green trails?!

I recently bought an EZ-Test: Complete. For my first time using it I tested 2 different kinds of pills and found a couple of things that looked odd in the test.. So far I have not been able to find any info to shed any light onto the reason for these odd reactions so maybe someone with a bit of test kit experience can help me out...

Mandelin tested a Green Mitsubishi - I used a tiny scraping. In first few seconds dark purple specs were seen and trails when swirled. After maybe half a minute the faint purple trails turned progressivly dark greener (visible in picture). I have seen somewhat similar reaction occured on the other pill I tested (capsule). You can clearly see the green after a minute or so in this pictue... http://www.pillreports.com/viewpill.php3?sub=-1&area=3&id=46859

Why did the purple trails turn a dark green? Is this just a normal MDxx reaction with Mandelin? I have photos showing the colour Mandelin goes with Methampetamine. It is supposed to turn green straight away and It is a much lighter green and then settles as a slightly blueish green

Even more odd was when I Simon's tested a Green Mitsubishi. I mixed the buffer well with the reagent till the colour is well mixed then I added the scraping. It showed some of the specs sinking and going a dark purple or blue which is good but then later maybe after a minute or less a separate small yellow spread appeared. It did not pick up the yellow spread in the photo I took but it was clearly visible.

Does anyone know why there was a small yellow spread?

 

[bfisher]

possibly another chemical that was in the e ?

 

[Sevoflurane]

I mixed the buffer well with the reagent to colour is well mixed then I added the scraping.

The EZ test instructions recommend that u scrape then reagent, then buffer. I would imagine that mucking around with the order would result in different reactions.

 

[mrsmitconh]

Reactions should be pretty fast for the re-agents (<5 secs) especially Simons which would offer an instant change to Cobalt Blue. Add Simons to the scraping then add the buffer.
Mandelin does tend to offer up a greenish hint (after 30secs) especially on the edges with MDxx.
Use a reasonable amount of pill ... not just a little dust and crush into powder.

Your result seem like reasonable MDxx probably mostly MDMA but EZ Test is not infallible ... it's only a rough guide.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

I mixed the reagent with the buffer first then added the scraping for a couple of reasons.

1. I had read adivce from more than one testing company that it was quite A-okay to do it this way. (Off hand I don't remember if It was ez-test.com.au, chemicalsolitions.com.au or enlighten-hr.org but I'm sure I could dig it up if you really wanted me to find it...

2. The recomendations for ratio are for (I think from memory) add 1-2 drop of Simons to to 2-4 drops of buffer... So I wanted to make sure I didn't accidently get to many drops of one and make the wrong ratio before putting a scraping in.

3. The reagent has a different colour to the buffer. Mixing it well before hand you can get one uniform colour liquid then watch for any change in colour as the scraping is added. This is probably more so important with the robadope as it has a reputation for not reacting so obviously as the other reagents.

Mandelin does tend to offer up a greenish hint (after 30secs) especially on the edges with MDxx.

It sounds like what I suspected, the dark green is probably just the normal MDxx reaction. Just to give a little more detail... It's like this.... I added a small scraping of the Green Mitsubishi to the Mandelin liquid... (and I mean small (tiny) this was not just to minimise waste but also so as to get a better idea of the colour changes that occur.... eg. you use a big scraping and all you'll see is a big fat puddle of very dark purple/black and it could mask whatever else is going on.... Also you can then swirl the reagent so as to get a good idea of the colour (chemicalsolutions.com.au reccomend this). So it turned purple and as I swirled you could see lighter purple trails (becasue swirling thins the colour). It was only after the reaction had fully stopped going any more purple or spreading that it's like the purple reaction died and as I swirled it just on the edges (ie the thinned out purple trails) turned a dark green and got darker eventually almost black. I only saw some of this reation with the other pill I tested (the clear capsule) becasue despite using a similar sized tiny scraping it reacted very violently turning the whole liquid patch dark purple almost immidietly and bubbled heaps. Then after the reaction stoped I could see a very small ammount of the same dark green on the edges... I suspect I couldn't see more dark green simply because the it was the whole of the liquid was so dark purple.

and crush into powder.

Just a note Although I'm not very experienced yet with testing... I try to read a lot on how to test...ect. chemicalsolutions.com.au has some great advanced testing techniquies and they reccomend against crushing a scraping into powder... here's what they say

Take your scraping and spread it out to be about 0.7cm in diemeter (approx. 1 drop of liquid in size). Don't totally crush it to smithereens, just let it break into it's 'natural' bits.

They later talk about swirling the solution as the reaction takes place while looking at the different colour hues and looking for minuscule colour variations which are quite more apparent with 're-engineered' pills. I could understand that if you just crush the shit out of it it will more likely mix up chemicals and so therefore the colour reaction rather than say for example with a 're-engineered' pill where you might see different separate colour patches ect.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Back to discussing the separate yellow patch I saw with Simons reagent. Has anyone else seen a yellow reaction before with Simons??

I have only found a few other confirmed reactions to other chemicals on the internet with Simons Reagent some for example are Methamphetamine, TMA-6, 2-CT-21 ... All ranging from either Dark Blue, Greenish Blue or Violet. The only other (possible) reaction I have seen on the internet is from Erowid (some people suggested that it could be a real reaction to MDA, although Simons is not supposed to react to MDA) Who knows??? Maybe this is a bad photo and the yellowey-orange reaction of the MDA tested is actually showing the colour of Simons reagent with no reacion?!? If that is so then why does the liquid on the right with the MDMA reaction look clear directly above the blue bit??? Shouldn't a neagtive reaction be the same clear colour as that?

Sorry bout the other two colour gradients underneath... That's from my own docs... can't be bothered cuttin pics at this time in the morning...

Anyway check out this picture...

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Sorry don't mean to write an essay... just thought I'd post the pics of Mandalin Reagent reacting to methamphetamine crystals... the person said it changed to light green on contact then settled at a slightly blueish green... (whereas the reaction I had was the the light purple trails turning a dark green after maybe 30 sec or more then settling at an almost black colour... Definatly no light green on contact... I have read another report of sombody who tested a pill that had some traces of speed in the bag and it too went light green on contact... then purple... not the other way around.

 

[mrsmitconh]

I'm far from an expert with re-agents or otherwise .... but ... really ...
you are taking the re-agent tests to another level!! They are not expert devices ... actually far from it .. they offer a simple test for MDxx substances no more no less.

The advice on whatever site is flawed!
The idea that NOT crushing up into powder a miniscule shaving from a pill could realistically identify X, Y and Z substances is idiotic .. it assumes the manufacturer didn't powderise the ingredients hence you can identify chunks ... in reality they most probably did [and even if they didn't] hence you'll get no benefit from such a test.

EZ Test or any other re-agent test is to identify the presence of MDxx substances no more no less ... get used to it ... you're analytical talents are being wasted.

All my experience and opinion ... you decide !

PS As you are no doubt aware ... test results in real life are difficult to distinguish .. your photo's although nice have little or no bearing on the discussion ... it's simply impossible to for us to analyse !

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

I don't see how the advice on "whatever" site is flawed as you state...

Obviously these are not expert testing devices... unfortunatly I do not live in Switzerland (where they have GCMS testing in the raves) Unfortunaly GCMS testing is illegal here. Hell even the harm reduction guys here have to pretty much dodge the law to set up testing at a rave here... so anyway that's the best we've got...

From what I've read from various organisations who have used these reagent test kits and seem to have a fair ammount of expereince with them (including U.S. Department of Justice) is that they can give a good indication of many different chemicals and NO NOT JUST MDxx... have a look at a list on Erowid http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_faq_testing_kits.shtml and that's definetly not a complete list either. Many of the testing orgaisations (harm reduction ect) have tested probably many more different pills and pure substances that you or I would in our lifetime... Personally I think their experience and techniques is something to learn rather than dissregard so easily. And YES the kits aren't infallable or entirely accurate but we all know that even then many of these organisations including ez-test.com.au still say even they say when it comes to straight MDMA, MDEA or MDA, or MDBD that there are slightly different and noticalbe differences in colour and reaction time between them (unfortuatly fillers in pills can also slow reaction time but the colour will still be different for each of them). Also Mandelin reacts a slightly different colour and time with MDA as opposed to MDMA so they have said. They say you do need a good new test kit at room temperature. The difficulty arises when there is a mix of MDxx substances as one can mask the other. Other chemical reactions are obviously a lot easier to destinguish and I think in many cases it's just a matter of experince (the more reactions you see the more you'll be able have a better idea to identify the chemicals).

 

[mrsmitconh]

I don't see how the advice on "whatever" site is flawed as you state...
<snip>
They say you do need a good new test kit at room temperature. The difficulty arises when there is a mix of MDxx substances as one can mask the other. Other chemical reactions are obviously a lot easier to destinguish and I think in many cases it's just a matter of experince (the more reactions you see the more you'll be able have a better idea to identify the chemicals).

It's marketing or misguided belief .. that's my belief
EZ test are not here for altruistic reasons .. ok initially maybe but not any more.
The web page is deliberately vague so that users fully understand that these tests are BASIS tests. They say if it's purple it's probably MDxx .. hey no guarantee .. not 10% of the time or 80% of the time but just more than likely. These are not lab conditions .. re-agents age, temp changes, substances change, test conditions change ....

Tell you what you come back here after testing a few hundred pills and tell me you can distinguish the active contents [MDxx substances] better using the standard EZ Test Kit rather than by consumption and I'll hold my hand up and say to one and all I'm wrong but until then have fun with that little chemistry set.

It's great for identifying MDxx [mostly] and a few other substances give or take a few false positives and false negatives. I like the kit and use it weekly but pinch of salt ... and all that.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Firstly lets end the debate about the accuracy of these tests... I have already said many times that I aggree these tests are not lab tests what I mean is that I aggree that they are not perfect and so cannot produce 100% accurate test results. Obviously they are a home test (granted they have been used by law enforcement agencies for many years!) and they are not entirely accurate, they do age and expire and they can be easily contaminated and so on. Also there are many other factors that contribute to accuracy one for example is that a pill manufacturer could add a substance that is not MDxx to produce a purple colour on the Marquis test and so one could quite easily be misled into thinking it was a positive test for MDxx. I use these test kits as an idication of what is in the pill and nothing more (hell that's why I bought all 5 reagents... so I'd have a better indication of what is in there!).

It's marketing or misguided belief .. that's my belief
EZ test are not here for altruistic reasons .. ok initially maybe but not any more.

^^ I'm guessing what you're debating here is about validity of the original '97 EZ-Test chart here (Marquis) where EZ-Test company stated (and still state) that under ideal conditions with pure MDA, MDMA, MDEA, MBDB that there are definite differences in colour and reaction time between each of these.... If you choose to believe that this is just marketing then fine that's your choice but here is something I'd like to add... EZ-test has obviously removed the old chart and now uses the newer chart which simply shows a purple/black as being a more general colour for an MDxx substance. So in actual fact they do not openly market their Marquis products any more as being a test to differentiate between the different MDxx substances. It's only if you e-mail them or have a read in the EZ-Test FAQ's ...ect basically definetly not something that is openly marketed and everyone knows about... that they state that the old chart is still valid but they don't publish this chart any more becasue the differences between the MDxx substances were with pure powder and not pressed pills... they state that Marquis will still give a slightly different colour and reaction time for the different MDxx substances for pills today the problem is that because of fillers in the pill can slow the reaction time and also there are pills with a mix of MDxx substances which are the hardest to identify using the test.

I can niether confirm or deny the validity of the '97 chart yet using my own testing results because I have not yet tested enough MDxx pills to see any differences between different Marquis test results besides, the pills I have tested have been suspected to contain high dose MDMA. I do know that from anecdotal evidence that other (pill report) testers seem to have somewhat possibly confirmed what other testing companies have said... One for example someone testing a pill that at the time was suspected MDE he stated that it was the first time he'd seen Marquis reagent go that kind of reddish-maroon purple.(There are quite a few other such reports with people noticing slightly different colour from the norm on Mandelin test or Marquis test for pills many people suspected MDA and other pills that were suspected MDE... obviously pillreports should be taken with more than a pinch of salt ) Other companies such as www.chemicalsolutions.com.au state that they can tell differences in the colour between pure MDMA and MDA using a Mandelin reagent. So when I come accross a suspected MDA or MDE pill with my new test kit I will be very interested to see what comes up... if anything different...

The main reason for starting this thread in the first place was not debate the accuracy of test kits and whether or not Marquis and Mandelin can show differences between the different MDxx substances and so on... It was rather to get some feedback from other testers and their results and to be able to have something to cross reference my results with hence the title of this thread... I am new to using these test kits and unfortuantly so far I have only had one person in this thread give me their test experience with the Mandalin reagent... so mrsmitconh desipte bringing heavy handed opinions and debate to this thread thanks very much for giving some of your own your experience with test kits.

and as for

<snip> have fun with that little chemistry set.

... Sure thing I will! I'll have fun throwing those chemicals around like a crazy man and I'll be sure to post the pics on pillreports.com along with a final 'munch' test

here's a pic of the old '97 EZ-Test (Marquis) kit chart in case anyone wanted a look. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2817929

 

[mrsmitconh]

Your points are duly noted. I'm sorry if i seemed overly argumentative/heavy handed ... it's more my style of writing than my nature [I do attempt to tone it down ... alas sometimes I fail ].

I still fail to see the relevance of other users subjective testing of unknown substances in wildly variable conditions however that's only my opinion.

The full EZ test is useful for discerning between non-MDxx substances and MDxx that's one of the primary reasons I use the full kit and that's why I would never trust simply one re-agent.

Law enforcement have and do use similar tests but only as a preliminary means of identifying substances i.e. An MDxx positive would be more than adequate.

Every report/site offers a different spin on re-agents and results and IMO the best site is EZ Test as they make it clear it's fundamentally a test for MDxx. I'm sure under the right conditions with the correct variables that users can distinguish between MDxx substances but firmly believe it's a very rare event rather than the norm [am i back peddling?].

I respect your wish to be more analytical using these re-agents so will extract myself from this thread

Good luck

Edit:
PS I'll post a quick generic question to the ecstacy forum. To be honest I think we'll see replies confirming the users ability to distinuish MDxx substance with re-agents however I remain sceptical.