Shroomery strychnine thread from Other Drugs Discussion

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This is a copy of my strychnine thread on The Shroomery. It was deleted by a mod, along with other posts of mine about strychnine.

I also made a thread about strychnine on this site:

Strychnine's association with peyote and LSD

s240779 said:
Although strychnine is primarily known as a poison, it has an interesting history of medicinal use in low doses, especially in Asia.

“Strychnine and brucine although being toxic in nature have remarkable therapeutic action.”[1]

I first became interested in strychnine after reading someone's posts about it on Bluelight. The person says it's his "favorite stimulant", "favorite nootropic, and it works wonders as far as the potentiation of psychedelics." He even says it's "extremely similar to a non-hallucinogenic dose of acid".[2] Just recently, I came across two more user reports of strychnine, as well as historical information about its use as a drug rather than a poison. This motivated me to buy a cheap Nux vomica tincture from India and try it. My experience was in accord with the person quoted. I was very impressed with the effect, although for me it was primarily somatic, with only a hint of a psychological effect, so not spectacular, like he says. However, I also get very disappointing results from cocaine and amphetamines (i.e. weak mood elevation, short duration, and a bad crash), because I'm severely depressed, so that may have weighed down on the effect of strychnine. Regardless, I found the effect to be much better than nothing and I can't wait to get more. I've found that Nux vomica extract is sold for cock fighting roosters, so there's no need to order it from overseas.

I'm very excited about this because it's exactly what I was looking for: a cheap, legal substance that has a substantial effect. I bet it synergizes with a low dose of harmine or harmaline. I don't like their effects in substantial doses, but I do like them in very low doses. Such doses are good when combined with a psychedelic, but too faint by themselves. Strychnine may serve as a substitute for the psychedelic.

Check out my Bluelight thread for more info about strychnine: Strychnine's association with peyote and LSD


1. TLC Determination of Strychnine and Brucine of Strychnos nux vomica in Ayurveda and Homeopathy Drugs. Rathi A, Srivastava N, Khatoon S, Rawat A. Chromatographia 67(7):607-613, Apr 2008. DOI: 10.1365/s10337-008-0556-z

2. Viṣakaṇṭha, Nov 23, 2013. All his posts about it are on this page:

https://www.bluelight.org/community...-as-a-motivational-boost.503184/post-11972780

Asante said:
This has my interest for decades, I'd love to pick up a gram of strychnine nitrate. For obvious reasons the pure product is hard to come by.

People have gotten cramps from as little as 5mg, you have to keep the dose painstakingly low.

It lowers your convulsive threshold.

Be very careful with this, its a horrid poisoning if you take too much.

s240779 said:
I know. I already took too much. I described my experience on page 2 of that thread. Why strychnine nitrate?

Many overseas chemical companies sell strychnine and there's even a U.S. one that seems to be willing to sell it to anyone provided they pay an extra $70.

TrancedOutBrah said:
What's it feel like kinda? Any other drug somewhat similar to it in terms of feeling?

The dosage makes or breaks it. I had never heard of anyone using this recreationally or for productivity

Sounds like a horrible way to poison yourself. Wouldn't be the first time I've nearly killed myself from being stupid

s240779 said:
Based on my one positive experience, primarily somatic, like the body highs of LSD and an opioid combined (it has kind of a metallic feel), and a hint of mental clarity. It's good, but not psychological enough for me, which is why I think harmalas would complete it (and vice versa, cuz, as I said, desirable doses of harmalas are too faint for me).

When I first got it, I did only tiny doses, of course, which didn't induce a noticeable effect...except when I dozed off: I started having mild convulsions in my sleep. They shook me awake! It was pleasant cuz it was so mild, it was like, don't doze off 'til it's time to go to bed! Seems like a great way to stay energized throughout the day! It's also so interesting that it was only when dozing off that my body became sensitive enough to its activity at such a dose.

TrancedOutBrah said:
Have you tried Harmine by itself?

I meant to make a new batch yesterday but didn't get around to it.

Not sure what you mean by feint tho. I had a full on trip on 4g of rue with tracers like I've never seen before and quite euphoric at times. Did get nauseous and puke in the beginning but that all subsided with some ginger and peppermint then became enjoyable.

After experiencing that, I cut out Harmaline and now have tried just Harmine and experienced no nausea, tracers+clean euphoria. I was surprised to learn it has a reverse tolerance even

s240779 said:

TrancedOutBrah said:
Have you tried Harmine by itself?

Yeah, 99% pure from China.

TrancedOutBrah said:
Not sure what you mean by feint tho. I had a full on trip on 4g of rue

I'm saying, the highest dose of harmine that does not give me negative effects is so low that the effect is faint.

TrancedOutBrah said:
How much was it if you remember by chance?

Interesting that you had a weak experience with it. It's true though that you can def get negative side effects from too much rue though, can be very uncomfortable and in extreme causes life threatening

Strychnine seems interesting though from your description

s240779 said:
The amount that fits in the bottom of a standard vitamin capsule.

Asante said:
Strychnine nitrate, atropine sulfate, scopolamine hydrobromide.. those were the salts won from the common extractions.

Of course strychnine HCl is just as good if not better.

It's scary stuff.

TrancedOutBrah said:

s240779 said:
The amount that fits in the bottom of a standard vitamin capsule.

Oh sorry I meant $$$ from china

ShiroiTora said:

Asante said:
People have gotten cramps from as little as 5mg, you have to keep the dose painstakingly low.

It lowers your convulsive threshold.

For this reason I highly recommendation you not to take strychnine with harmalas. It's not only a neurotransmitter thing, metabolizing enzymes are also involved, and if one of them happens to be the one that metabolizes strychnine you might very well end up taking a lethal dose, no matter how careful you are.

Bardy said:
Yeah. Taking strychnine by itself is stupid enough, but combining it with harmalas just seems monumentally retarded and self destructive.

I’m sorry for the harsh words, I really am, but I just feel like you have a death wish OP. What do you think there is to gain by taking strychnine? Like seriously? Do you think it’s going to give you an edge over other people? Do you think you’re going to start breaking records and becoming the most productive person you can be? Because don’t we all know that’s a load of shit. Anyone who has ever done stimulants for those reasons knows that is the false promise of stimulants. And this is fucking strychnine man… Jesus. We’re literally talking about taking rat poison right now.

s240779 said:

ShiroiTora said:
For this reason I highly recommendation you not to take strychnine with harmalas. It's not only a neurotransmitter thing, metabolizing enzymes are also involved, and if one of them happens to be the one that metabolizes strychnine you might very well end up taking a lethal dose, no matter how careful you are.

In vitro Metabolism of Strychnine by Human Cytochrome P450 and Its Interaction with Glycyrrhetic Acid. (2012). Liu, L., Xiao, J., Peng, Z., Wu, W., Du, P., & Chen, Y. Chinese Herbal Medicines, 4(2), 118-125. DOI: j.issn.1674-6384.2012.02.005

Inhibition of human cytochrome P450 enzymes 3A4 and 2D6 by β-carboline alkaloids, harmine derivatives. (2011). Zhao, T., He, Y., Wang, J., Ding, K., Wang, C., & Wang, Z. Phytotherapy Research, 25(11), 1671-1677. DOI: 10.1002/ptr.3458


But you're not taking dose into account. As you saw, I said I only like very low doses of harmalas, i.e. to add some spice to an orally active psychedelic. Such doses are not sufficient for oral DMT and probably aren't sufficient for much of anything (except an observable "spicing up" of a psychedelic). People never seem to want to take dose into account when evaluating things like this. The MAOI attribute of harmalas is, of course, notorious, and people are always warning that, e.g. MDMA and SSRIs are likely fatal in combo with harmalas, and yet there are reports of these combinations, one of them from Bardy, who posted in this thread.* People act as though these combos are so bad that almost any dose will put you in the hospital or kill you. I, myself, tried both Zoloft and Lexapro with low doses harmalas. I didn't get a negative effect (the Zoloft gave me a potent stimulant effect). To just insist that any dose is bad is unscientific. A much more reasonable reply would be to say start with only a fraction of the dose(s).

edit Now I see that you did take dose into account, cuz you said, "no matter how careful you are". I don't know why you would assume such a thing. These aren't, like, the most powerful things in the world. Why would you just assume that it's so dangerous?


*See the bottom of this post: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28975090#28975090

 

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s240779 said:
Just found more reviews of it on Drugs-Forum:

It is a rather excellent stimulant! 69ron's descriptions are pretty spot-on. It is an entactogen, sharpens the mind and senses, and is a superior aphrodisiac. It takes about 45 minutes to an hour for full effects to kick in, which then last for maybe three hours more. In the doses I've been taking there is almost no edginess at all, and I can go to sleep easily 4 hours after taking it. Small doses can be used to keep the effects going, I'll start out with around 30mg worth, top off with 10mg after 4 hours, 10mg more after another few hours. I've yet to exceed 50mg worth in a day.

...

I also suspect that Strychnine does somewhat lessen a hangover. Before combining it with alcohol I did some research and found an old study suggesting it may alleviate some of alcohol's toxic effects. The other day I took 35mg worth of tincture, drank a bottle of wine - with a large meal and over a few hours - then my wife and I went home, had some amazing sex, and I woke up about 5 hours later to go to work. Normally I would have been quite tired all day after that but the only ill effects I felt were dry mouth from the wine. I actually felt pretty fantastic all day!

I'm not trying to advocate that people start using this stuff, or start pounding liquor and expecting this stuff to ward off a hangover. The wine thing may have been a fluke, I did eat a big meal and drink plenty of water. This is something that should be approached with the utmost caution. But so far I've really been enjoying it, I've tried it probably 12-15 times. For those who have plenty of experience with extracts/tinctures and very good self-control this is an excellent drug. And talk about cheap! This stuff is pennies a dose, easily the cheapest drug I have ever paid for, cheaper than a cup of coffee by far. If you assume the seeds you get are the highest potency possible, start with very low doses and work up until you find the sweet spot, this can be a fantastic substance.

One last thing, I'm a runner and read long ago about Thomas Hicks winning the 1904 Olympic marathon by taking strychnine. Well, I couldn't resist...earlier today I was feeling pretty tired. I took 30mg worth of seed and ran about 5 miles. I kept getting the urge to stop - it's a warm, humid day and I usually run in the morning, today I did it at 4pm when it was good and hot. Normally I probably would have had to stop a couple times for 30 seconds or so but every time I got the urge, my feet seemed to keep on going. I am not a believer in performance enhancers because I've had a couple experiences over doing it with kratom + exercise, no serious injuries but definitely some strain I didn't need or benefit from. I don't think you should use substances to push your body further when you're training. But like I said, I couldn't resist giving this a try.

rawbeer, Apr 19, 2015, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-1597356

It makes my vision seem amazingly clear, a sunny day is just breathtaking. 69ron's descriptions really hit the nail on the head, it is sort of like a very very minor, "nootropic" dose of LSD. Nothing psychedelic but with the sensory enhancement.

I won't get into source discussion but let's just say the big commercial growers are in India. You'll be waiting around forever thinking you got ripped off but wondering if trying to get a few bucks back from India is worth it. Slow, slow delivery seems common.

The more I get to know it the more I like it. At the right dose you barely notice it's a stimulant it's so smooth, but the effects are all there. And I've yet to experience any issues trying to sleep just a few hours later, nothing like a cup of coffee would do to me. It's become a favorite afternoon stimulant, like kratom is for me, for this reason.

Just be super fucking careful, and enjoy!

rawbeer, Apr 29, 2015, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-1601575

Strychnos nux vomica,
At the right dose sharpens the senses, visual and aural acuity, clarity of thought and speech, colours are brighter more ease to do complex mathematics. Does not fuck your appetite or circadian rythm. Counteracts many of the negative aspects of opium and opioid use for which it was widely prescribed for several centuries.

Stimulates appeptite and perastalisis. Clears the liver.

You all missed it, I think, but when you get tired of fucking around with the chicken feed weak stuff its time to meet the master blaster. Strychnine baby. THe strychnine man of the 1920s was the best dressed man in sleazy streets of Soho London. He was still functional when all the coke heads, where edgy and coming down, when the morphine crowd were in the gutter.

Seriously this plant extract if you know how to use it is a very healthy, noortopic stimulant. It does have a safe window of use and was used in western medicine for centuries. It still is widely used in the east. It is banned from olympic sports for good reason

The main reason it was banned from all but the cardiac ward of major western hospitals (where it still is a last resort) was it is such an efficient hard the trace killer when given in overdose.

Ze Baboon, Jul 26, 2009, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/herbs-that-are-energizing-stimulating.354918/page-2#post-638158

ubeRAGEoUS, it's as nice as that post makes it sound. Honestly. No place sells it anymore so you can be sure people are not spreading sales talk, trying to make it sound nicer than it is. No one buys it. No one sells it. At least not where I live. It's still used in India and China and a few other places around there. It still pops up as a sports enhancing drug in those parts of the world.

Strychnine was once extremely popular as a stimulant. If it wasn't so easy to OD on it, it would still be popular. The downside is its potency. It's just way too potent. You can feel 100 micrograms of it. It's nearly as potent as LSD is. It also has effects that are mind expanding, much like LSD has, but it's not hallucinogenic at all. It makes you see clearer, hear better, improves your sense of touch, things smell stronger. Sex is better. It makes you more aware of things around you. It improves your memory and concentration. It doesn't have the edginess of caffeine. It's one of the best stimulants there is, but also the most toxic. That's the downside.

If there was a stimulant as nice as strychnine is that was not as toxic, it would be SUPER POPULAR. The problem with strychnine is that a good dose is 500 micrograms. A large dose is 3 milligrams. A deadly dose is about 30 mg or so. 10 times more than a large dose and it can be fatal. That's a MAJOR problem. When it was popular, too many people would OD on it. As little as 5 mg can cause unpleasant effects. It's just too dangerous for the average person to buy at the local store. Too many people like to overdo drugs and not follow the directions on the box. With strychnine, you cannot take it like it's caffeine. You have to be very careful about taking accurate doses or you'll be in for it.

I think if people capped it at 1 mg, and never took more than 1 mg, it would still be available. Too many people abuse these kinds of things thinking things like, "if 1 pill is good 10 should give me much more energy!", so they would take ten 3 mg pills, and then die shortly after (or just have painful convulsions if they were lucky).

69Ron, Jan 31, 2010, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-757000

Strychnine is one of the nicest stimulants there is. I was introduced to it many years ago, and liked it a lot, but then it disappeared. It’s now next to impossible to get. However, you can make an extract of nux vomica seeds which contain strychnine as their main active alkaloid. Nux vomica seeds are still available and apparently legal in most countries. A highly diluted tincture of nux vomica is a safe way to use it.

I have recently made a tincture of nux vomica containing approximately 243 micrograms of strychnine per ml. His favorite dose is 2 ml, which contains about 486 micrograms of strychnine. At that dose the effects are fantastic. It’s my favorite stimulant. I wish you could still buy nux vomica tinctures at the local herb store. As long as the dose of strychnine is 4 mg or lower, there are no toxic symptoms present. Since I use slightly less than 0.5 mg, he’s well within the safety limits.

All of what you hear about it’s stimulant effects are true. It makes you see clearer, hear better, increases your sence of smell, and even your sense of touch is enhanced. It’s almost like LSD in that way. It’s nootropic effects are also quite obvious. I can remember the details of things that happened on days he used nux vomica better than on days he didn’t use it. It really does improve memory and concentration.

It’s only downside is it’s narrow safe dose range. While doses of 0.05-4 mg are safe, a dose of 50 mg is likely to kill a person. Some people are very sensitive to its toxic effects, and for that reason, when it was commonly used in medicine many years ago, the highest safe dose was said to be 6.4 mg. There is one unverifiable death of someone who took only 5 mg (probably by injection in which its more toxic), but in general the average person would need 50 mg orally for it to be fatal. Considering you can get very decent stimulant and nootropic effects with doses as small as 0.5 mg (500 micrograms), as long as you don’t go higher, it’s relatively safe to use. With the typical fatal human adult dose being 50 mg, that's 100 times larger than an effective dose of 500 micrograms. If you need it stronger than 500 micrograms, you can simply take 500 micrograms of it with coffee. That’ll really perk you up. There's no need to take more than 500 micrograms and it would be unwise to take more than 2 mg.

69Ron, Sep 11, 2009, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/herbs-that-are-energizing-stimulating.354918/page-2#post-665366

Strychnine is [my] favorite stimulant. [I use] 500 micrograms at most. Often just 100 micrograms is enough.

69Ron, Jan 31, 2010, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-756959

I have just purchased some nux vomica seeds. To be honest I had initially scoffed when I came across this thread, but upon thinking about it I've decided that this could have potential utility as a nootropic if used correctly. I intend to use 96ron's tek. I'll share my results in a few weeks.

malsat, Apr 29, 2015, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-1601569

Interestingly though, smoking powdered nux-vomica seeds is not very effective according to a test I ran a few years ago. It seems as though strychnine is decomposed in pyrolysis to some extent.

Powerful Medicine, Jan 29, 2015, https://drugs-forum.com/threads/nux-vomica-how-to-use.116031/#post-1564897

 

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Bardy said:
Such a biased post… just choosing all the positive reports. Try having a look at all the accidental poisonings as well.

s240779 said:
Heh, choosing all the positive reports? There are only a few reports on English-language sites and they're all positive. Not much to choose from. Apparently you have trouble grasping the concept, 'the dose makes the poison.' I already suffered a minor overdose. You wouldn't even believe the lower doses are the same substance. The first person quoted describes it well: "At the right dose you barely notice it's a stimulant it's so smooth,". I was so taken by how smooth it felt.

Bardy said:
I know the concept… the dose does make the poison, but there are some drugs that aren’t worth taking for recreation because the recreational dose is so close to the dose at which you could possibly convulse and die.

Take MDMA for example. 100mg is the dose, going over that isn’t a great idea but you won’t die from it unless you eat grams of the stuff. And that’s one of the more toxic recreational drugs. Compare this to your strychnine… the dose which you say is nice is only one third of an overdose. Why can you not see how dangerous that is? You want it to be a wonder drug so badly that you’re blind to everything negative about it. You’re suffering from major confirmation bias and you cannot admit it. It’s frustrating to watch…

There are plenty of reports of strychnine poisonings if you look for them.

12 cases right here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8817065/

Another
https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/cc1549

I’m not gonna keep searching because I don’t have time, you should do some though, you need a more balanced perspective of this drug.

Like, you’ve already accidentally poisoned yourself with it but somehow you’re still looking at it through rose coloured glasses…

s240779 said:
Going by your logic, LSD isn't worth taking because it has such a steep dose-response in terms of potentially horrifying psychological effects.

Extracts are inherently standardized, right? So if I mix some ground up NV seeds into vodka and filter, the first dropper will be as strong as the last one, right? So, if one makes a lot of extract there will be no confusion about the dose for a long time (i.e. you would just have to titrate up slowly once, and then you could be sure of future doses). One of the advantages of strychnine is that, as one of the people quoted said, it literally costs pennies.

Bardy said:
That first thing you said is a straw man. That’s not my logic at all. Strychnine causes overdose at about three times the recreational dose. LSD can be psychologically distressing at the recommended dose, but it doesn’t kill you or permanently damage your body.

What you’re doing is deliberately trying to compare strychnine to something which is known to be quite safe, comparatively, in order to make out like strychnine is safer than it is. This is a dishonest tactic, and I’ve come to expect this type of thing from you.

The second thing you said there is that it’s cheap. The rest of it about standardised extracts is irrelevant to this conversation and seems like an intentional effort to make a diversion. So what if it’s cheap? Lots of things are cheap and nasty.

s240779 said:

Bardy said:
The rest of it about standardised extracts is irrelevant to this conversation and seems like an intentional effort to make a diversion.

Irrelevant? The primary reason people OD on things like this is because they don't know how to dose them. If you just put in a bit of patience at the beginning, you'll know how to dose the rest of your extract, thus messing up the dose will not be an issue.

Sugabearcrisp said:
oison2:

s240779 said:
There's evidence that strychnine is endogenous:

“Strychnine is being reported in mammalian brain for the first time. Serum of patients with epilepsy, Parkinson's disease (PD) and manic depressive psychosis (MDP) was also examined for the presence of these alkaloids. Serum of control subjects did not show the presence of any of these alkaloids, while that of all 3 patients groups contained strychnine.”

Endogenous alkaloids in the brain of rats loaded with tyrosine/tryptophan & in the serum of patients of neurodegenerative & psychiatric disorders. Arun, P., Ravikumar, A., Leelamma, S., Kurup, P. A. 1998. The Indian Journal of Medical Research, 107, 231–238. PMID: 9670621

nooneman said:
Taking strychnine in any dose is an extremely bad idea, and anyone who says its a good drug is just trying to poison people.

Don't be gullible, strychnine is a poison, it isn't anything else. Don't listen to anyone who tells you to take it, they're trying to poison you.

s240779 said:
So the researchers quoted at the top of the first post are trying to poison people?

Bardy said:

s240779 said:

Bardy said:
The rest of it about standardised extracts is irrelevant to this conversation and seems like an intentional effort to make a diversion.

Irrelevant? The primary reason people OD on things like this is because they don't know how to dose them. If you just put in a bit of patience at the beginning, you'll know how to dose the rest of your extract, thus messing up the dose will not be an issue.

It’s irrelevant for the same reason that you already overdosed on a standardised extract.

Bardy said:

s240779 said:
There's evidence that strychnine is endogenous:

“Strychnine is being reported in mammalian brain for the first time. Serum of patients with epilepsy, Parkinson's disease (PD) and manic depressive psychosis (MDP) was also examined for the presence of these alkaloids. Serum of control subjects did not show the presence of any of these alkaloids, while that of all 3 patients groups contained strychnine.”

Endogenous alkaloids in the brain of rats loaded with tyrosine/tryptophan & in the serum of patients of neurodegenerative & psychiatric disorders. Arun, P., Ravikumar, A., Leelamma, S., Kurup, P. A. 1998. The Indian Journal of Medical Research, 107, 231–238. PMID: 9670621

Just because something is endogenous doesn’t magically make it safe to take.

Also, one of your quotes in the original post which says strychnine is therapeutic is from an article about homeopathy, and in homeopathy they dilute the medicine in water so much that there likely doesn’t even exist one single molecule of strychnine in the solution.

ShiroiTora said:

Bardy said:
Just because something is endogenous doesn’t magically make it safe to take.

:whathesaid: pretty sure cyanide is endogenous as well..

But fuck man, people drink alcohol, which is also literally poison and a neurotoxin. Do what you want, but I recommend not to take with harmalas. We all know what the headlines will read: "Idiot dies after drinking ayahuasca.." No mention of strychnine or the P450 pathway, just politics..

B Traven said:
Yeah, just wanted to chime in and say that I've taken too much acid, fucked up and combined an already too-high shroom dose with kava to try to "chill out" not considering the MAO inhibitor effects, ingested enough weed edibles to more or less black out, and also, worst/most dangerous of all, consumed enough alcohol to push myself dangerously close to alcohol poisoning.

I'm certainly a bit lucky that I managed not to stumble into traffic, choke on my vomit, piss off the wrong people, etc.

But one thing my younger, dumber self wasn't doing was dancing so close to the line as to risk a straight-up lethal dose with no external factors.

There is still a reason that strychnine is viewed primarily as a poison. Maybe vodka should be, too, but the fact that people usually kill themselves slowly with it, as opposed to suddenly and unexpectedly, kind of says it all.

Even taking the idea of titration at face value, if I fuck up a weed or mushroom extract then I might get too high. If I fuck up a strychnine tincture, or get one that was prepared incorrectly, then I might convulse and die like a rat that gnawed on some bait.

I hear heroin is super fun, too. But aside from the potential for debilitating addiction, I'm put off of trying it because of the narrow gap between a "I'm fucked up" dose and a "I'm not breathing" dose.

Bardy said:
Another thing about your first reference is that it is about using thin layer chromatography to identify active constituents in herbal medicines. It is not a paper about how therapeutic strychnine is. It is a paper about trying to make herbal medicines safer and more transparent for consumers.

They are chemists testing for strychnine, they don’t necessarily know shit about if taking strychnine can be therapeutic, but you’ve cherry picked that one quote which spins strychnine in a more positive light.

:judyfacepalm:

I’ve only jumped on you so hard here because I think the information that you’re trying to spread is dangerous, and I don’t think you know enough about this stuff to have such a contrarian opinion on it.

Bardy said:

ShiroiTora said:

Bardy said:
Just because something is endogenous doesn’t magically make it safe to take.

:whathesaid: pretty sure cyanide is endogenous as well..

But fuck man, people drink alcohol, which is also literally poison and a neurotoxin. Do what you want, but I recommend not to take with harmalas. We all know what the headlines will read: "Idiot dies after drinking ayahuasca.." No mention of strychnine or the P450 pathway, just politics..

You have to consume a ton of alcohol to kill yourself though. Strychnine is only 30-120mg and you’re dead.

Edited for language.

Asante said:
I took a peek as if to source it.

A little under 500 bucks for a kilo of strychnine citrate.

Mother of God

Bardy said:
500 bucks and you’ve got enough to kill 10,000 people lol

SonicTitan said:
There's enough drugs out there that poison us and give us desired effects why take actual poison? Lol


Beats me

 

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s240779 said:
The person quoted in the first post compares it to nicotine:

“In fact, while there is no doubt that it is a powerdul substance....its toxicity level is quite the same as that of nicotine's (LD50 of 1–2 mg/kg in humans for strychnine, and an LD50 of 0.5–1.0 mg/kg for nicotine).”[1]

I agree with this comparison because I've experimented with nicotine patches and I found too many patches to be very uncomfortable, while a half or quarter of a patch induces an innocuous buzz. This parallels my experience with nux vomica seeds, although the higher dose of the seeds was worse than the nicotine (but not as overstimulating, interestingly).

You guys are letting a preponderance of negative comments about this chemical influence you. Keep in mind, things like psilocybin have suffered the same fate. If you actually tried it, yourselves, you would see that it's actually quite nice...you just have to treat it like fentanyl. In a way, I'm glad I suffered a minor OD because now I can personally say that I've seen both of its sides and that the difference between the two is like night-and-day. There could be basically two completely different mechanisms going on with the different dose levels. The stark difference in effect and the size of the molecule suggest there's room for valuable modifications, i.e. optimizing the therapeutic effect and minimizing the toxic effect. There has been limited research into that:

Strychnine, an alkaloid isolated from the seeds of Strychnos nuxvomica, L is known to stimulate all portions of the central nervous system with preference to the spinal cord. Its effects are believed to result from antagonism or an inhibitory transmitter, possibly glycine. It is a powerful convulsant and death results from asphyxia. At present strychnine has no therapeutic application in the western system of medicine. However, because or its convulsive effects, it is an important pharmacological tool as it plays a unique role as an inhibitor of post synaptic inhibitory impulses. It is useful to study inhibitory transmitter and receptor types. Strychnos nuxvomica trees grow naturally in this area and strychnine is isolated from the easily available seeds. The objective of this work was, therefore, to convert strychnine into a compound having CNS stimulant properties but with sufficiently low toxicity so that this locally available natural product may find some use in the preparation of a therapeutic agent.

Strychnine was isolated from its natural sources and was converted into a number of its derivatives by well established procedures in synthetic organic chemistry. As the lead compound is of extremely complex structure, the purification and structural determination of these derivatives required careful manipulations in the laboratory.

Derivatisation of strychnine involved modifications of the aromatic ring, and at positions 1O,11,19 and 21–22. The biologically important sulphonamide substitution product was also prepared and characterised for the first time. Some derivatives were prepared with modification of more than one position in the parent molecule. Prompted by reports that the N-oxide of strychnine, known as genostrychnine is less toxic and less convulsive than strychnine itself, all the derivatives of strychnine were converted into their N-oxides. Strychnine N-oxide however is not being used as a therapeutic agent because of the threat of convulsions at higher doses. The biological evaluation of other N-oxides was therefore considered worthwhile. It may be noted that although the pharmacology of a few strychnine derivatives have been reported, the pharmacology of these new N-oxides have remained unknown until now.

Studies on the Synthesis and CNS Activity of Strychnine Derivatives (thesis). 1987. Annam P. Chacko. Cochin University of Science and Technology (1. Introduction, pages 2–3)

https://events.cusat.ac.in/xmlui/bitstream/handle/purl/3302/Dyuthi-T1269.pdf?sequence=1

Also:

Pharmacological characterisation of strychnine and brucine analogues at glycine and alpha7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Jensen A A, Gharagozloo P, Birdsall N J M, Zlotos D P (2006). European Journal of Pharmacology, 539(1-2), 27-33. DOI: 10.1016/j.ejphar.2006.04.010


There are numerous positive testimonials about its effects. I posted some in an above post (#28980152) and there are two on reddit (Strychnine: my experiences. Aug 6, 2015 (one of them is a reply to that reddit post, copied in my BL post)), and there is one from a Bluelighter, quoted at the beginning of the first post and also quoted in this post (all his posts are on the BL page seen in reference #1).

A company in the 60s even manufactured strychnine pills and advertised them as an aphrodisiac![2] So, truly, you guys need to reconsider your opinion about this substance. Researchers who research dangerous topics tend to be very timid themselves. They let the negative findings consume them, closing them off to the positive findings. As already stated, this has happened with the subject of psychedelics. So, don't be like them.

“Strychnine has an undeserved reputation as a useful therapeutic agent. There is no current justification for its presence in any medication.”

Jiri Patocka (2009). Chapter 14: Strychnine. / Handbook of Toxicology of Chemical Warfare Agents. R. C. Gupta. Academic Press (pages 199-205). DOI: 10.1016/B978-0-12-374484-5.00014-6 (C. Therapeutic Purpose, p. 200)

So what if a researcher feels this way? They don't always know what they're talking about and they rarely have personal experience with substances.


The genostrychnine mentioned above (as a less toxic derivative) is natural (indeed, a metabolite) and another one described as less toxic is brucine, a.k.a. dimethoxystrychnine.[3] So, we may not even need to search for synthetic derivatives to get something more acceptable. I found recent articles that describe an interest in the therapeutic properties of brucine and using it liposomally or transdermally as a way to mitigate its toxicity.

“Recently, it becomes a hot spot in clinic how to give its full play to biological activity while avoiding the central toxicity [7–9].”


Effect of Ultrasound-Enhanced Transdermal Drug Delivery Efficiency of Nanoparticles and Brucine. Zhang, N, Wu, Y, Xing, R, Bo, X, Guoliang, D, Wang, P. BioMed Research Internation, vol. 2017, article ID: 273816. DOI: 10.1155/2017/3273816


Improved pharmacokinetics and reduced toxicity of brucine after encapsulation into stealth liposomes: role of phosphatidylcholine. Chen, J., Yan, G. jun, Hu, R. rong, Gu, Q. wen, Chen, M. lei, Gu, W., … Cai, B. chang. (2012). International Journal of Nanomedicine, 7, 3567–3577. DOI: 10.2147/IJN.S32860


Brucine is even reported to have an anti-tumor effects!

Transdermal delivery of brucine-encapsulated liposomes significantly enhances anti-tumor outcomes in treating triple-negative breast cancer. Wu M, Hu Y, Xu M, Fu L, Li C, Wu J, Sun X, Wang W, Wang S, Wang T, Ding W, Li P. Biomaterials Advances. 2023;153:213566. doi:10.1016/j.bioadv.2023.213566


Brucine may have even been passed off as amphetamine once!

“I also recall that there was a time when "white crosses" were analyzed to be brucine rather than amphetamine.”

George Root, Oct 20, 1994. alt.drugs (UseNet), 'Re: What are the different kinds of LSD?'. Seen at the bottom of this page: Myths: Strychnine in LSD? (Erowid) (Lamont Granquist, Hyperreal Drug Archives and alt.drugs, 1994)


So, truly, this subject deserves more attention. Strychnine isn't necessarily a good substance (but it's not bad), but its analogs may have a lot of potential!

And scientists just found out how to synthesize strychnine via genetic engineering!

Strychnine’s biosynthesis deciphered: Chemists unravel the enzymes and chemical transformations plants use to make this complex molecule. Bethany Halford, Jul 12, 2022, Chemical & Engineering News

“Because strychnine is a bioactive molecule, its derivatives could have pharmacologically useful properties without being poisons.”




1. Viṣakaṇṭha, Nov 23, 2013, https://www.bluelight.org/community...-as-a-motivational-boost.503184/post-11973074

2. Following this trend in France, a company in Miami during the 1960s learned of strychnine’s supposed sexual benefit from the medical writings of the Victorian era. The company, All Products Unlimited, hoped to seize upon the sexual revolution of the 1960s for financial gain by selling an aphrodisiac pill they called Jems. The pill, marketed as a “sex energizer pep tablet for married men and women,” contained a small dose of strychnine.

Following the release of Jems to the general public, All Products Unlimited was sued for mail fraud. The suit was, in fact, not focused toward the inclusion of strychnine in the pill’s formula, but instead was focused upon the false claims of Jems being able to provide sexual benefit to consumers. Upon facing the charges in court, the company decided not to fight it and was swiftly indicted.

[Reference: Kang L, Pedersen N. Quackery: A Brief History of the Worst Ways to Cure Everything. New York, NY: Workman Publishing; 2017.]

Fun Fact: What Benefit Did Victorian Era Physicians Believe Strychnine Could Provide?. Alana Hippensteele, Pharmacy Times, Nov 12, 2020

3. "Strychni semen, a herb also known as “maqianzi” in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), also contains strychnine together with its less toxic analog, brucine."

Strychnine poisoning due to traditional Chinese medicine: a case series. Tong HF, Chan CY, Ng SW, Mak TWL. F1000Res. 2021 Dec 17;10:924. doi: 10.12688/f1000research.73072.2 (Background)

 

[red22]

Bardy said:
What matters more than comparing LD50s is the ratio between an effective/common/recreational/therapeutic dose and an overdose.

With nicotine 1-3mg feels really good with no tolerance, 5mg starts feeling shitty, but you’d need to take at least 10 times that amount to start getting up to very dangerous levels, or rather, 25-50 times more than what feels good.

With strychnine you specifically said that taking only 3 times as much as what felt good was an overdose.

If you cannot see the difference here then you are truly a lost cause. No amount of reason or logic could change your mind because you’re not open to the possibility that you’re wrong.

——-

I do agree research into strychnine analogues might yield some worthwhile chemicals. This is a possibility. But this thread is about eating strychnine, not some hypothetical analogue which we don’t even know would have any benefits. So why even bring that up? It’s like you’re a troll just trying to get people to poison themselves.

Sugabearcrisp said:
nicotine is a highly addictive poison that kills a lot of people, comparing strychnine to nicotine doesn't make it anymore appealing

B Traven said:
I ain't about to add nicotine tinctures to my shopping list, either.

This is frankly a bizarre thing to be fixated on, and I don't know why you'd expect people to keep an "open mind" about a literal poison on a forum with harm reduction as one of its missions.

I already pretty much understood strychnine's deal before coming across this thread, and knew people had used it recreationally and/or as an amphetamine analogue in the past. Comparing it to moral panics and ignorance around psychedelics is just dumb.

Asante said:
Strychnine in a correct dose makes you feel nice. It used to be active ingredient of countless "tonic" patent medicines for it's kick. Problem is, a little oopsie causes a dramatic poisoning.

Strychnine poisoning is horrible, thats why its so taboo.

s240779 said:
Exactly. Why can't these people recognize that "the dose makes the poison"?

Asante said:
People aren't read into what it might do in a recreational dose and their imagination goes wild on its abuse as a homicidal and rodenticidal poison.

Back in the old days people were familiar enough with low doses of strychnine to notice the similarity with low doses of psychedelics.

I'd love to have a gram or so in a lab vial but a kilo, holy crap no :rotfl:

If you look at the effects in overdose, you must feel like a crisp dollar bill in a therapeutic dose.

At therapeutic doses, strychnine can act as a stimulant for the central nervous system, enhancing reflex activity, improving respiration, and increasing sensory awareness. Historically, it was used in low doses as a performance enhancer or as a remedy for conditions like fatigue. The therapeutic dose is extremely small, typically around 1-2 mg, but it carries a very narrow safety margin. Anything beyond this can quickly become toxic, as strychnine is highly potent and dangerous.

What i'm thinking, hypothetically, is you're lying in bed with your babe, both with heightened excitement, every caress sending shivers and goosebumps over your body, your senses in general are more acute so you devour her look, her scent.. Your muscle tone is firmer, erection more eager, your body in general wants to go through the motions, discharge that energy,,

that sounds better than "forbidden inhumane rat poison"

Bardy said:
We all recognise the dose makes the poison. That’s a red herring.

What you’re deliberately dodging again, this time hand in hand with Asante, is the ratio between the effective dose and an overdose. This is the part which makes strychnine dangerous and why people are objecting to your romanticising and obsession with it.

Sugabearcrisp said:
I can recognize the value from a harm reduction standpoint in discussing, but in aquiring and using when amphetamine and countless other analogs exist I cannot understand. I don't even think it has the uniqueness of datura and other drugs in that class.

My biggest concern is idiot reads strychnine gets you high as the message which is exactly what they will do ignoring all other words and warnings...

Bardy said:
Sugar bear, your statement about nicotine is inaccurate. Smoking kills loads of people every year, but very few are dying from nicotine overdose. And it’s one of the most widely used drugs.
Edit: there are cases of accidental nicotine poisonings as well, typically from ingestion of nicotine liquids.

In contrast, despite how rare strychnine use is there are still cases of strychnine poisoning every year.

Sugabearcrisp said:
Fair enough

Bardy said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Fair enough

Sorry dude I’m just getting carried away now

schmutzen said:
Nicotine > strychnine

Asante said:
This thread is fairly packed with warnings and strychnine is a panic word.

We are Shroomery, explorers of consciousness, not a petting zoo.

Strychnine sharpens your senses. Amphetamine doesn't do that.

As said: it feels like threshhold psychedelic, not like amphetamine. This, due to the sharpening of the senses.

You can't buy strychnine nitrate at the pharmacy anymore like 100 years ago. People must jump hoops for it.

A therapeutic dose is 1mg. a few people get convulsions at 5mg. Usual fatal dose is 30-50mg.

That is a narrow range but still a sufficiently wide margin of safety for someone who works with RC's. A fivefold OD of just about any RC is harrowing.

Strychnine has to be liquid dosed. How is a meticulous drug user going to liquid dose a fivefold OD by mistake? Even if he does: that dose won't make him lose consciousness. It varies from damn annoying to holy crap painful.

You guys fetishize "narrow dose range" like taking only a fraction of one dose more will put you under. No, a 30 fold OD will put you under, and then only sometimes.

Asante said:
Strychnine used to be sold in bottles of "tonic" of many brands that you took 1 cap of after shaving to kickstart your day.

Yokels thought "if 1 cap makes me feel bitchin' i'm gonna drink the whole bottle!"

yeah and that was the end of strychnine tonics: they weren't tardproof.

You have to be very careful with strychnine but, multifold OD's don't usually happen.

Arsenic in small doses made people feel good too, but it is carcinogenic, strychnine is not.

Bardy said:
1mg therapeutic and convulsions at 5mg? That’s extremely risky if you ask me… not trying to fetishise anything.

5mg of nicotine won’t give you convulsions. 10mg of nicotine probably won’t even give you convulsions. I’d guess it’s probably more around the 20-40mg range which might do that.

All I’m trying to do is give a realistic perspective of what strychnine is, because I feel as though s240 is going out of their way to give a more positive view of a very dangerous drug.

The margin that you get between feeling okay, having convulsions, and dying from convulsing is very small.

Also, we have underage people visit this website all the time and strychnine is widely available. It’s not a good thing to talk so positively about it without having some pushback.

In my opinion this whole conversation is just completely crazy. Utterly insane.

Asante said:
The pushback should be there, but it shouldnt stop research in its tracks.

Your nicotine estimate is way off by the way. Modern science assumes the lethal dose of nicotine to be about 500mg-1gr.

Strychnine is much more toxic than nicotine.

5mg has given some people convulsions. Some people likely have an unusually lowered convulsive threshhold.

A mid range dose of 2C-P is 8mg. 40mg would straight up put most people in the hospital. Fivefold range.

Taking 5 XTC at once also is a very bad idea. it can kill.

Strychnine has a sweet spot and you get progressively sicker the higher you go above that. You'll have cramps, Rigidity and twitches long before you convulse.

Strychnine widely available? Doesnt your country keep poisons from the general public? EDIT: what kind of barbaric shit country is the USA that it still has strychnine based rodenticides?! It was banned here in 1968

:themoreyouknow:

Bardy said:
Okay, I can’t say I disagree with anything you said. Sounds reasonable enough. The sweet spot of something so poisonous just seems insane to chase though, being that the sweet spot is so close to the convulsion spot. And this thread seems to be more concerned with doing strychnine to get high rather than doing strychnine for any kind of therapeutic effect. So as others have said, there’s many much safer, and much more effective drugs than strychnine for this purpose. For instance, if you want a threshold psychedelic effect then why not take a threshold dose of a psychedelic? Why bother with something so poisonous if that’s the pro of a “sweet spot” dose of strychnine?

Research is great, but this isn’t research, this is just someone wanting to get high from strychnine, right? Or do I have it backwards?

By widely available I mean it’s super easy to buy nux vomica seeds. I’m not talking about pure strychnine. I’d guess it’s not as easy to get in pure form here, but maybe in the form of rat poison, I don’t know.

B Traven said:
Yeah, the US is living in another century when it comes to rodenticides and such. The vast majority need to be banned. Bioaccumulation in raptors and other predators is a huge problem. And a lot of these poisons are just used to do awful things to native species out west, because they're classed as "varmints." Or it's just done illegally, since you can get this shit over the counter at the hardware or feed store and then there's no real oversight or consequences for what you do with it. But then the attitude in places like NYC is very often "saw some rats, put down some bait and do literally nothing else to address the problem."

Thing is, though, there are lots of countries in the world, and as already mentioned, you CAN get various strychnine concoctions in some places. Saying "well, you can't even get it in concentration" isn't going to help if someone finds thenself where they CAN, and garbled the instructions.

What constitutes research, though? I mean, people will do what they want, but I will generally discourage personal experimentation with strychnine. Maybe there are spiritual and psychological benefits to cave diving or climbing Everest. I'm still not interested. If we're talking about actual biochemical and pharmacological research, well, that's a whole other thing.

s240779 said:

Bardy said:
So as others have said, there’s many much safer, and much more effective drugs than strychnine for this purpose. For instance, if you want a threshold psychedelic effect then why not take a threshold dose of a psychedelic? Why bother with something so poisonous if that’s the pro of a “sweet spot” dose of strychnine?

Cuz they aren't widely available and they aren't dirt cheap. Also, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that sweet spot.

Asante said:
What would interest me in getting a controlled exposure to strychnine in part is a desire to dance with the demon of great notoriety. That in itself appeals. Not bragging rights to others, a personal encounter, controlled, with a very scary bad actor, with my own naked fear in a fantastic convoluted molecular form. Its a beautiful structure and a hydrogenated tryptamine:

Secondly: precisely for what it does. It acts on glycine receptors, causing an excitatory effect on mental and physical systems. It perks you up in ways you didnt know existed.

It alters your senses a bit, in precisely the way those senses are built, so observing that gives you insight in your neurological systems by direct experience.

It has that psychedelic/dissociative effect that to the close observer you come away with insights about how your organism works, because it highlights you in a special way.

Thats an intellectual kick

The feeling is likely not quite nice since overdoses are so intensely dysphoric, but it can prove highly fascinating.

schmutzen said:
NGL now I would like to try it..... but I'm not going to go looking for it.

s240779 said:
Did you see that I said that nux vomica extract is used for roosters in my first post? All you have to do is a simple search.

B Traven said:
Alright, well you kids have fun. Imma go huff some butane, nothing is quite like that buzz either.

Asante said:

s240779 said:
I bet it synergizes with a low dose of harmine or harmaline.

I would
totally, totally, totally
NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT
combine strychnine with a MAOI
or within days of a MAOI.

If it synergizes, it might be a medical emergency.


If you "spaz out" (its not proper convulsions because you don't pass out) you lose control of your body in a very painful and frightening way and your capacity for fear is through the roof. If it doesnt kill you, you might come out with PTSD.

s240779 said:
What evidence is there that strychnine would interact with MAOIs?

The MAOIs inhibit monoamine oxidase (MAO), an enzyme that catalyzes the oxidative removal of monoamines, including serotonin, histamine, and the catecholamines dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine, as well as trace amines.5 By covalently bonding to MAO enzymes, MAOIs prevent the removal of these amines, resulting in their increased synaptic availability.

]Dietary Restrictions and Drug Interactions With Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors: An Update. David A. Flockhart, MD, PhD, The Primary Care Companion for CNS Disorders, Jul 15, 2012 (Mechanism of Action of MAOIs)

Asante said:
or within days of a MAOI.

The half-life for harmine is 115 ± 60 minutes:

Ayahuasca and Drug Interaction: The Good, the Bad, and the Soul. Benjamin Malcolm, PharmD, MPH

https://pharmacy.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/2740/2022/01/HO-6-slides-per-page-Ayahuasca-and-MAOIs.pdf

Asante said:
I have no evidence that it does, but if it does you may be in a world of trouble.

MAOI are notorious for dangerous drug interactions, thats part of why you need ayahuasca dieta.

and then: using strychnine.

I wouldnt chance it.

SonicTitan said:
If you think people should take strychnine for its effects then you may as well say people should take fent for its effects.

Asante said:
yes! taking a fentanyl derivative like 3-MF can be justifiable.

they just should dose it right.

When my wound pain gets too much, i stick a fentanyl patch. Good drug.

Sugabearcrisp said:
Fent in a medical setting :solidnod:


Fent in a recreational setting :justno:

s240779 said:

Asante said:
MAOI are notorious for dangerous drug interactions, thats part of why you need ayahuasca dieta.

Neither of those things are true. Dieta refers to something else and has been misapplied to ayahuasca to refer to the guidelines for pharma MAOIs. Dieta just means dieting plants, i.e. consuming an herb frequently, as if you're making it a part of your diet, e.g. a bobinsana dieta. Practiced by ayahuasqueros, but not directly related to ayahuasca. And westerners just think, "dieta..oh, MAOI diet."


“I don’t diet before ceremony. Amazonians usually don’t either. It’s just a tourist thing and everyone makes up their own version. Eat healthy whole foods and skip alcohol - the rest is pretty optional.”

MapachoCura, Apr 25, 2024, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/hsV5OvqJdm


Amazonians never had to come up with a B. caapi diet because the few things that are contraindicated with MAOIs* aren't available in their culture.


These hurdles cause doctors to shy away from using MAOIs, but they are largely illusory. The two most prominent seem to be (1) the misperception that there are frequent drug interactions and (2) that there is a major risk of ingesting excessive tyramine (Tyr). Neither hurdle is complex nor difficult to overcome if the latest scientific evidence is considered.

“Much ado about nothing”: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, drug interactions, and dietary tyramine. Ken Gillman, MD. CNS Spectrums. 2017;22(5):385-387. doi:10.1017/S1092852916000651 (Introduction)


It is, unfortunately, necessary to state clearly from the beginning that much of what is published by doctors in books and journals about MAOIs is either poorly informed, or just plain wrong. As an example, much of the information that comes with MAOIs (the PI, or product information sheet) contains inaccurate material concerning, among other things: serotonin toxicity, drug interactions generally, and dietary tyramine.

MAOIs (Parnate, Nardil): Misconceptions and Questions No. 1. Ken Gillman, MD. PsychoTropical Research. Nov. 14, 2012

...there is a great deal of misinformation and mythology about their dietary and drug interactions.

Practical guide for prescribing MAOIs: debunking myths and removing barriers. Grady MM, Stahl SM. CNS Spectrums. 2012;17(1):2-10. doi:10.1017/S109285291200003X


*Clarification about the MAOI diet (yes, you need to follow it)

Bardy said:

B Traven said:
Alright, well you kids have fun. Imma go huff some butane, nothing is quite like that buzz either.

Fuck yeah, dose makes the poison kids. Huff petrol in small amounts. Not bad at all. Nothing wrong with that. JK

Nothing wrong with warfarin either in small amounts. Get into the rat poison. Good shit. Mmm

Asante said:
Warfarin is a pharmaceutical
Strychnine is a pharmaceutical
Gasoline is a carcinogenic poison

Hexogen has been used as a rat poison too, its an explosive.

Sugabearcrisp said:
:misinformation:

Strychnine has not been used as a pharmaceutical for over 100 years in the western world.

It is only being used as a poison now.


Again I see value in discussing from a harm reduction, but the outright attempts to minimalize the risk and misrepresent the facts is dangerous.

Stop trying to convince people it is okay

ShiroiTora said:

s240779 said:
What evidence is there that strychnine would interact with MAOIs?

Ah s24.. You must be completely insufferable to deal with in real life.. Researching this shit like you are getting paid, and using what you find to piss people off that care about your wellbeing.

Try the fucking combo, let us know if you survive

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
:misinformation:

Its an alkaloid that targets a few receptors specifically, that is used in human and veterinary medicine.

The western world is not the measure.

I'm totally emphasizing that it has risks and needs special care if one uses it.

I'm not trying to get anyone to do it, just saying i would, if the situation presented itself.

schmutzen said:
It's not your fault Asante, anytime that you talk about chemicals it just sounds so sexy.

Asante said:
:rotfl:

Sugabearcrisp said:

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
:misinformation:

Its an alkaloid that targets a few receptors specifically, that is used in human and veterinary medicine.

The western world is not the measure.

I'm totally emphasizing that it has risks and needs special care if one uses it.

I'm not trying to get anyone to do it, just saying i would, if the situation presented itself.

Asante said:
Strychnine is a pharmaceutical.

Back track all you want, you said it is a pharmaceutical which it is not.

Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

s240779 said:

SonicTitan said:
Though I don't see any reason strychnine should be used in a medical setting with how far we have come in pharmaceuticals.

I'm telling you, it feels pleasant in low doses. Feels much different at a higher dose (again, I'm kind of glad I accidentally took too much cuz now I can personally say that I've seen both of its sides).

You all missed it, I think, but when you get tired of fucking around with the chicken feed weak stuff its time to meet the master blaster. Strychnine baby. THe strychnine man of the 1920s was the best dressed man in sleazy streets of Soho London. He was still functional when all the coke heads, where edgy and coming down, when the morphine crowd were in the gutter.

Seriously this plant extract if you know how to use it is a very healthy, noortopic stimulant. It does have a safe window of use and was used in western medicine for centuries. It still is widely used in the east. It is banned from olympic sports for good reason[ * ]

The main reason it was banned from all but the cardiac ward of major western hospitals (where it still is a last resort) was it is such an efficient hard the trace killer when given in overdose. (From one of the testimonials posted in post #28980152)


*World Anti-doping Agency Prohibited List (See S6. Stimulants)

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

Are you telling me to get off the white man's internet?


You're saying a pharmaceutical is not a pharmaceutical anymore because it is no longer used as a pharmaceutical in the west.

You narrow the definition then say it doesn't fit in there: That's not how it works.

Sugabearcrisp said:
Just asking you to stop spreading misinformation asante.

strychnine has not been used as a pharmaceutical in over 100 years, fact.

strychnine is not an approved medicine for humans per WHO, fact.

Asante said:
Salvarsan (compound 606) remains a pharmaceutical though it's a century in disuse.

You are trying to stomp this out and i'm not letting you.

I'm giving sufficient warning that its highly toxic and a dangerous thing to be doing.

But a Shroomerite of good lab technique and reasonable healthe could make a strychnine tincture and dose themselves a milligram with good precision and without strong negative effects.

Your lab technique and health must be good, however.

Is that dangerous misinformation?

Sugabearcrisp said:
Not trying to shut things down, in fact I've said it is worth talking about for harm reduction 3 times now.

You have repeatedly attempted to call a poison a pharmacuetical human medicine which is simply not true.

It was used as such historically as such but is no longer used due to safety profile.

And like most cases where you've backed into a corner you are falling back on red herring arguments about compound 606 and slightly veiled claims of ethnocentrism.

:elderno:

s240779 said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
It was used as such historically as such but is no longer used due to safety profile

As stated by someone in the quoted testimonials, its steep dose-response is the only reason it isn't used anymore (casually):

“When it was popular, too many people would OD on it.”

“I think if people capped it at 1 mg, and never took more than 1 mg, it would still be available.”

I've tried it and I can tell you that within a narrow dose range it's actually quite pleasant, and because of your fentanyl post (i.e. you think it's great when administered professionally), I don't understand why you're not open to what I'm saying. You wouldn't even let a doctor administer strychnine to you...

Ice9 said:
Jesus people are getting desperate to get high. There are many more, better, and significantly less risky highs out their.

Strychnine has a narrow therapeutic index, and the risk of OD is substantial. Generally for every medical indication strychnine has, there are better and significantly safer drugs that exist. This is why it is not used anymore, the risk is not worth the benefit when alternatives exist. Same reason we do not use ether for anesthesia anymore.

The Blind Ass said:
Right. With today’s alternatives it really demonstrates strychnine for what it is; more or less, a crude & mediaeval-esq substance in terms of its medicinal properties / recreational value(s). It’s simply not worth messing with for any real purpose - basically it’s been rendered irrelevant - as it should be.

s240779 said:
I don't understand why you guys are so fixated on overdose. Do you realize how quickly a potent substance becomes weak when mixed into water? Let's say you make a vial of liquid strychnine and you're not confident in its dilution so you take an additional syringe of water and mix one drop from the vial into it and then consume only one drop from that syringe. You've just ingested ~1/20ᵗʰ of a single drop! Just go slowly from there until you figure out how potent your vial is.

Do you guys also specifically have something against the tiny dose effects? You guys aren't specifying why. Do you feel that the tiny doses are essentially contaminated by the higher doses (i.e. something so bad couldn't possibly be good in any dose). Well, numerous peoples' experiences argue against that. Again, I even got sick from a higher dose and I can tell you that the lower dose was much different, so I appreciate it for what it is, without worrying about a dose range that I'll never ingest again.

Bardy said:
It’s just risky behaviour. If you want to keep doing it and you want to keep talking about it then I for one would really appreciate it if you made it much more clear in your posts how risky it actually is rather than leaning into the positives.

I just feel like your take on it isn’t balanced enough. That’s my main gripe with how you’re thinking.

And are you taking it for specific medical reasons? Or just for the high? Have you looked at other, less risky options which also make you feel good if you’re just after the high?

Just trying to balance the conversation. That’s all. I feel like you’re portraying it in a much too one sided manner.

Asante said:

s240779 said:
I don't understand why you guys are so fixated on overdose.

They're afraid. Fear overrides their rationality.

For me, my fear is a reason to confront it, when i'm physically fitter in case it gives me a full body workout, that i'm less exhaustible.

Its not arsenic trioxide or amanita phalloides. It is a simple receptor drug that acts on the glycine and acetylcholine systems. Only an overdose is bad for you.

This is a substance that was sold to the general public as a once-daily pick-me-up. Its not some raging razorbeast you have no control over.

Asante said:

Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

that is an ethnocentric comment.

red herring arguments about compound 606

Cpd. 606 and Strychnine are both pharmaceuticals that aren't used as such anymore because better drugs came available.

Strychnine in proper dose will still pick you up and 606 will still cure your syphilis though, they just do so with a higher risk of side effects than more modern drugs.

No red herring here. I'm not misleading or distracting away from the point, i'm making a point that you try to avoid.

Something doesnt have to be in current use as a pharmaceutical to be considered a pharmaceutical. Veronal was the first marketed barbiturate. That its no longer prescribed or marketed as one, does not make diethylbarbituric acid suddenly not a pharmaceutical anymore.

What sets most pharmaceuticals apart from most poisons, is that a therapeutic dose generally doesn't harm you. This is the case with strychnine. You take it, it has a dose dependent effect on your receptors, it is excreted.

Sugabearcrisp said:
You do you asante, boof the shit for all I care.

There is a reason it isn't in use and it is not just one person who misused it.

Asante said:

Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

that is an ethnocentric comment.

I knew you'd get there. It is not ethnocentric to say a western word for a western concept is western.


Asante the great white whale from one of the most prolific historic slave trading and exploiting nation on earth is here to lecture us americans from his high horse.

:lolsy:

Go permaban yourself again

 

[red22]

Sugabearcrisp said:

s240779 said:
You wouldn't even let a doctor administer strychnine to you...

No, I wouldn't trust a doctor who would use a poison over the better options available?


Have you considered that you're not smarter than the people with medical degrees that determined strychnine was not suitable as a medicine?

Asante said:

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
You do you asante, boof the shit for all I care.

There is a reason it isn't in use and it is not just one person who misused it.

Asante said:

Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

that is an ethnocentric comment.

I knew you'd get there. It is not ethnocentric to say a western word for a western concept is western.


Asante the great white whale from one of the most prolific historic slave trading and exploiting nation on earth is here to lecture us americans from his high horse.

:lolsy:

Go permaban yourself again

yeah, lift the rock of your fuckery and out comes personal dislike ad hominem.

Let me explain it one more time: You alleged that the measure of something being a pharmaceutical is whether western nations still use it as such. This excludes non western nations because, well, what do they know, right?

That's ethnocentric.

Then later you found out the WHO doesn't endose it so you skip to that.

But what it all boils down to is that ad hominem. You can't give me an inch because in your adverserial thinking that inch is right in your ass.

I'm not fucking you with my great white whale dick, captain Ahab, you are just patently wrong and you can't pseudo intellectualize all over it because its written down.

And you get your red white and blue panties in a bunch over me, doing what, lecturing you? Is that how it feels?

We are just guys on a forum with differing opinions. Mine is based on rationality, that it is a calculated risk, yours is irrational, that no dose is safe and that I am an asshole.

Go fix your self esteem so that you don't have to smear petty insults ad hominem. You may slide that red herring up your ass if it makes you feel better.

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:

s240779 said:
You wouldn't even let a doctor administer strychnine to you...

No, I wouldn't trust a doctor who would use a poison over the better options available?

You don't even know why the doctor wants to administer strychnine to you, you just know that you know better than him no matter what.

Sugabearcrisp said:

Asante said:

Asante said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
You do you asante, boof the shit for all I care.

There is a reason it isn't in use and it is not just one person who misused it.

Asante said:

Your attempt to caveat your way out by saying the western world is not the measure is invalid since the word pharmaceutical is western in concept and origin.

that is an ethnocentric comment.

I knew you'd get there. It is not ethnocentric to say a western word for a western concept is western.


Asante the great white whale from one of the most prolific historic slave trading and exploiting nation on earth is here to lecture us americans from his high horse.

:lolsy:

Go permaban yourself again

yeah, lift the rock of your fuckery and out comes personal dislike ad hominem.

Let me explain it one more time: You alleged that the measure of something being a pharmaceutical is whether western nations still use it as such. This excludes non western nations because, well, what do they know, right?

That's ethnocentric.

Then later you found out the WHO doesn't endose it so you skip to that.

But what it all boils down to is that ad hominem. You can't give me an inch because in your adverserial thinking that inch is right in your ass.

I'm not fucking you with my great white whale dick, captain Ahab, you are just patently wrong and you can't pseudo intellectualize all over it because its written down.

And you get your red white and blue panties in a bunch over me, doing what, lecturing you? Is that how it feels?

We are just guys on a forum with differing opinions. Mine is based on rationality, that it is a calculated risk, yours is irrational, that no dose is safe and that I am an asshole.

Go fix your self esteem so that you don't have to smear petty insults ad hominem. You may slide that red herring up your ass if it makes you feel better.

When you throw shade, like you did, you can expect it to be taken personally and should expect a personal attack in return.

Now you're completely off the rails because you've been called out for what you are, a charlatan spouting dangerous nonsense from behind a keyboard, deciding who is racist and who is rational and who is right.

Sugabearcrisp said:

Asante said:
Let me explain it one more time: You alleged that the measure of something being a pharmaceutical is whether western nations still use it as such. This excludes non western nations because, well, what do they know, right?

I'll try again since english isn't your first language, this is etimology.

Pharmaceutical is derived from pharmacy. Pharmacies are western.
Ergo a phramaceutical is by definition a western medicine.

Clear?

Asante said:
Are you on some kind of RC stimulant that you are like this?

Sugabearcrisp said:
An adolescent with a half cup of coffee in them could prove you wrong.

I do appreciate the fact you want to attribute my cognitive abilities to a performance enhancing drug though :lol:

s240779 said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Pharmaceutical is derived from pharmacy. Pharmacies are western.
Ergo a phramaceutical is by definition a western medicine.

Clear?

The root is pharmakon, which is Greek for drug.

Sugabearcrisp said:

s240779 said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Pharmaceutical is derived from pharmacy. Pharmacies are western.
Ergo a phramaceutical is by definition a western medicine.

Clear?

The root is pharmakon, which is Greek for drug.

Ancient greece, aka the start of the western world.

Thanks for reinforcing my point

s240779 said:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Have you considered that you're not smarter than the people with medical degrees that determined strychnine was not suitable as a medicine?

Have you ever considered that no one has ever said anything bad about strychnine other than, "you can easily overdose on it"?

Asante said:
He's screaming like he's having a lowered convulsive threshhold





The Sonics - Strychnine (1965)

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But I like the taste
Of straight strychnine (hey, hey)

You may think it's funny
That I like this stuff
But once you've tried it
You can't get enough (wow!)

Wine is red
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin' you (wow!)

Wine is red
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin' you (wow!)

If you listen to what I say
You'll try strychnine some day
Make you jump, it'll make you shout
It'll even knock you out

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But I like the taste
Of straight strychnine (wow!)

Strychnine hey, hey
Strychnine hey, hey (wow!)
Strychnine hey, hey
Strychnine hey, hey
Strychnine hey, hey
Strychnine hey, hey



I wouldnt have posted this if we weren't having a harm reductionist struggle snuggle with Sugabearcrisp.

If course, Strychnine will torment you horribly if you take too much, and you gotta put serious effort into not messing up, but we all know that by now.

 

[red22]

Asante said:
I've been reading up on the use of Kupilu (Nux Vomica seeds) in Ayurvedic medicine.

Hilariously I saw that it was the main ingredient of a topical oil against erectile dysfunction, scared stiff lol.

An !ndian pharmaceutical company sold tablets with 18mg.
I can't imagine their customers spazzing out and dying in large numbers, something must be wrong with the "any dose is a disaster" hypothesis.


I decided I might as well, and ordered 100gr of the seeds containing approximately 1.5gr strychnine and 1.7gr brucine.

I've been wanting a dance with strychnine since my teenage years, bucket list activity.

s240779 said:
I hope you have a meat grinder that can handle bones or know someone who does.


“It's next to impossible to grind the seeds to a powder.” (69Ron, 1/31/10, Drugs-Forum)

“I first ground up some Nux Vomica seeds in a coffee grinder (these seeds are incredibly hard),” (Strychnine: my experiences. reddit. 8/6/15)

“I used a standard coffee grinder, nothing special. The powder was not homogeneous; it had little clumps of intact seed material interspersed among the fluffy seed powder. Tried to grind it with mortar and pestle but that didn't work. These little clumps were fine for my purposes though, which was just orally ingestion after weighing.” (8/10/2015)


And 69Ron says that grinding dry seeds can give you strychnine poisoning (the detractors are going to love this):
“Only grind the seeds when they are thoroughly moistened. That way it's impossible to generate a cloud of deadly Nux vomica dust. Besides, it's next to impossible to grind them when they are dry. You could very easily damage your herb grinder. They are one of the hardest things in the plant kingdom to grind. When wet, with the aid of lactose, it's not that hard. That's the way to do it.” (69Ron, 1/31/10, Drugs-Forum)

schmutzen said:
I'm severally lactose intolerant.

:baseballfuck:

Bardy said:
Wouldn’t it be funny if s240 turned out to really be Tregar and he’s just conned Asante into eating rat poison…

Asante said:
Trying strychnine is an interest of mine since the 1980s, since I saw it described in the High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs,

Bardy said:
Well, let us all know how it goes, and be careful
Sounds like about 30mg of seed powder is around a sweet spot dose and 100mg is something close to a “I’m all clenched up” dose. Something between 0.8g and 2g will be enough to kill possibly…

s240779 said:
This one is only $30.

https://www.carolinacooker.com/table-clamp-meat-grinder-ccp-265-08/p/124927/




It clamps to the edge of the counter so it doesn't need to be screwed into it. They also have an equivalent model that needs to be screwed into a base: https://www.carolinacooker.com/table-mount-meat-grinder-ccp-265-12/p/124928/


Even a meat grinder may be problematic for this:

“I read through the user’s manual for the Cabela grinder and the manufacturer boldly states, ‘Do not grind bone, nuts, or hard material.’ I’m assuming this would shorten the life. Their website prices it at $399. I’m personally going to invest in the Weston for a couple hundred more dollars, and peace of mind that it’s doing what it’s designed to… i.e., grind meat AND bone.”

Comment on Best Meat Grinders for Raw Feeding. Kimberly Gauthier, CPCN, Sep 13, 2016, Keep the Tail Wagging

“Used turkey wings with the Weston #22 and it jammed up twice. Called the manufacturer and he said they will not warranty for turkey bones.” (Comment on same blog post.)

“Most meat grinders don't recommend grinding bones, so that won't be in the description. Only other raw feeders can tell you how a meat grinder will do with bones.” (Quote from the post.)

But wikiHow says that cheap manual grinders should work:

How to Grind Bones into a Powder

s240779 said:

Asante said:
Trying strychnine is an interest of mine since the 1980s, since I saw it described in the High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs,

Strychnine, according to researcher Adam Gottlieb, stimulates erectile tissues in the same manner as yohimbine, opium, and burra gokeroo, the seeds of the southern Asian plant Pedalium murex. The reaction to this should be “so what?” because, although some may consider strychnine a buzz of acceptable risk, it is a capriciously lethal substance made for avoiding, not ingesting. (5. Aphrodisiacs, p. 106)


Currently, the most available type of oral stimulants are the “white crosses,” also known as crossroads or whites. The chances of there being amphetamine in these underground pills seems to be about 50-50. Analysis has revealed that crosses commonly contain strychnine, brucine, ephedrine, caffeine, and other stimulants of different natures. Some other pharmaceutical stimulants are summarized below. (11. Pharmaceuticals, p. 241)

A chart on this page has a comment about strychnine and brucine in the ephedrine entry:

Ephedrine, e.g., Amasec, Bronkotabs

Potentiates brucine and strychnine, with which it is often found in illicitly produced “ups.”


Ephedrine often appears on the black market under the guise of being a “white cross” amphetamine. Although it will give you a fair buzz, ephedrine potentiates the actions of brucine and strychnine, two potentially harmful drugs that are also common ingredients in bootleg ups. (11. Pharmaceuticals, p. 257)


STRYCHNINE Originally [isolated] in 1818, strychnine was used in the nineteenth century to increase the circulation and stimulate the heart. Now it is used only occasionally, to revive people overdosed on CNS depressants. But it reaches many people by way of bootleg chemicals. In the past a frequent adulterant in impure LSD, strychnine (and the related chemical brucine) is often present in illicitly produced stimulants that are sold as amphetamines. In therapeutic doses, it greatly increases mental and muscular activity but it is an easy drug on which to overdose. Too much can cause convulsions and muscle spasms that will lead to death if not treated. (11. Pharmaceuticals, p. 260)


High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs (1978)


Regarding the claim about bootleg amphetamines: Someone who claimed to be the director of Florida's anonymous street drug testing program* and a research associate with UpFront, Inc. in Miami in 1978 & 1979 said this:

I also recall that there was a time when "white crosses" were analyzed to be brucine rather than amphetamine.

George Root, Oct 20, 1994. alt.drugs (UseNet), 'Re: What are the different kinds of LSD?'. Included on this page: Myths: Strychnine in LSD? (Erowid) (Sourced from a post made by Lamont Granquist in Hyperreal Drug Archives and alt.drugs in 1994)

*(Clearwater Free Clinic/Drug Analysis Project)

Asante said:
That's the one!

Time to visit Henrietta to have a gander at King's American Dispensary of 1898:


Strychnine

Nux Vomica

please realize that in the 1800s they were very cavalier with doses.

Of strychnine they gave 2-4mg strychnine base, of nux vomica, the ground up seed, they gave 30-300mg.
Way too much.

For once we're going to listen to chatGPT:

Strychnine, once used medicinally as a stimulant, is effective in doses ranging from **0.5 to 1.5 mg** when calculated as the base, with some formulations historically reaching up to **2 mg**. However, it has a very narrow therapeutic window, as doses of **5 to 10 mg** can cause toxicity, and **30 mg** or more may be lethal. Due to these risks, strychnine is now rarely used in human medicine and only administered under strict medical supervision, with some applications in veterinary settings.

s240779 said:
Just FYI, Consensus is better for these types of inquiries.

Consensus: AI-powered Academic Search Engine

Also, I downloaded that book on Anna's Archive.

Northerner said:
"The dosage for medical use was cited as between "1/60th grain–1/10th grain", which is between 1.1 milligrams and 6.4 milligrams in modern measures. Normally the maximum dosage used was 3.2 mg, half of a "full dose".[2] A lethal dose was cited as 1/2 a grain (32 mg), but people have been known to die from as little as 5 mg of strychnine."

"strychnine produces some of the most dramatic and painful symptoms of any known toxic reaction"

"There is no specific antidote for strychnine."



I can see why you guys are so interested. It has been superseded by modern drugs, offers nothing that modern safer alternatives do, causes seizures and agonizing death, has no antidote, and posesses the possibility to kill from a standard olde tyme dose. It's like playing pharmacological Russian roulette. Fun stuff.

Unless you guys are complete imbeciles you understand why the community is pushing back against such foolhardy ideas. Despite the puppet shilling and linking to many articles about "medical" uses there's nothing about it that's medically recognised by our modern standards.

My concern is that more people who might have an interest from reading old text might find your narrative enabling, and that will lead to their death. That is a real possibility, and I hope that you feel comfortable with that outcome.

The Blind Ass said:
Same. At least from the perspective of harm reduction. It’s a touch concerning to say the least. Seeing as how this site does traffic in a number of users who sometimes are more easily influenced than one might always take into their initial considerations. Though, this is the place to post about Strych and other non-psych substances in general- stupid or not stupid. Maybe they don’t realize the former, or believe the risk of not at least putting a billboard sized disclaimer at the top/front of the original post, or something.

s240779 said:

Northerner said:
It has been superseded by modern drugs,

But we're specifically interested in the side-effects because one of them gets you high. Side-effect-free alternatives won't. I tried it 3 times, 2 of the doses were effective, one of them was too much, the lower effective dose felt perfectly fine. Combine that with the other positive reports and it's something I want to obtain again, and it will be incredibly easy to do so, since not only is it 100% legal, it's dirt cheap. :justdontknow: