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Should we go to war with Iraq?

Just heard on the news this morning,

Bush is asking for 7.4 Billion $$ by April 11.

This is "important, in winning the war!"

he can spend this as "he sees fit"

pfft, dodgey !


one of my mates is saying 74 billion... hmmm, i dunno!

eitherway 7.4 is heaps, 74 is ludicrous (sp)
 
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Military operations: $44bn
Call up of reserves: $10bn
Munitions: $6.5bn
Reconstruction: $1.7bn
Humanitarian aid: $500m
FBI: $500m
Coast Guard: $1.5bn
Afghanistan aid: $400m
Aid to Israel: $10bn
Aid to Jordan, Egypt: $1bn each
 
I got on the radio today (okay, so it was 2GB...but Im still cool, right?;))! I was interviewed after the student rally in Sydney. As per usual the media coverage of it was horrible. Sure there was some violence but they did not show the police forcefully pushing 9 year olds or enciting the majority of the problems.
 
I am anti the war, i marched last thursday and was proud in doing so but i was disgusted and think that there was a terrible disservice done to the cause at todays rally... from what I saw on tv, "We Want a Riot, We want a Riot." really effective way of getting people to respect your opinions.

and anyway why were 9 year olds there? wtf.. do they care or did they go to get a day off school.

I commend the police on their efforts, having to put up with those dickheads only there to cause damage... from the looks of many there, they didnt need to be enticed to start violence...

but hey I only saw it on tv.
 
only on tv. yup. anyways... :)

Here's an interesting article from The Guardian about the whole Geneva Convention thing.

(Rumsfeld's) prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held, breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television. In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras. They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions. They were then interned in a penitentiary (against article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).

They were not "released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities" (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about al-Qaida. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

more here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,921192,00.html
 
Sowle said:
I got on the radio today (okay, so it was 2GB...but Im still cool, right?;))! I was interviewed after the student rally in Sydney. As per usual the media coverage of it was horrible. Sure there was some violence but they did not show the police forcefully pushing 9 year olds or enciting the majority of the problems.

Media coverage of it was horrible?? The protest was horrible... I was there to on my lunch break eating a kebab....(one of the joys of working in the city, i get to watch all the protests/rallies) All I saw was kids enticing violence...throwing objects including chairs, full bottles of drink etc.....to be fair, the people perpetrating (sp?) all of this were in civilian cloths (i.e. didn't seem to be part of the high school crowd) and of middle eastern appearance..... so it was obviouse that there were a group there purely to cause trouble....

However apart from the violence, you could see that the majority of kids there were there for the day off... I mean sure there were some who were there for all the right reasons, but as far as I saw majority of the kids weren't listening to the speeches (see below) and were just socialising, sitting down and having a smoke....

The speeches themselves were nothing to be proud of.... most of it was about having the chance to say the word fuck really loudly...One kids speech comprised of "Fuck the war" and that was it...

What I can't believe is that parents and schools agreed to all this.... yes they have the right to protest....by they have an obligation to go to school and learn....who knows, if they learn enough they may get into politics and be able to make changes that everyone is screaming for...

Now the Thursday protest, that was a good protest... EVEN I felt moved by some of the speeches.......
 
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Right, well... This morning when I rocked up to my Aust IR politics lecture this morning, who should be guest hosting our lecture on the Australian Intelligence community but the one and only Andrew Wilkie. Jaw meets floor (stuff like this is very cool for Poli Sci geeks like me). Famous for his recent controversial resignation from the ONA (Office of National Asessments) the key intelligence arm that is exclusive in that it reports directly to the PM.
Link
He gave an incredibly interesting lecture on Australias intelligence capabilities, organisation and the challenges it faces (in relative vaguries on certain details of course) plus outlined his concerns for a war on Iraq based upon the recommendations from the ONA and the humint and intel that they get, which incidentally, is the same stuff that Howard is utilising for his war justification. A great lecture, I will see if I can rip the rm file when it goes up from monash uni's courseware site... Can anyone give me hosting, this was an amazingly good talk from one of Australia's 'head spooks' that not even the best media outlets would have the privilege of getting... HOST ME PLEASE.
 
one choice quote a friend posted on another forum:

Protesters are pathetic now. They are the lesser of what it means to speak out.
I will burn the flag under which I was born, I will savage the people who fight a war I cannot condone because my mindset is one with which is different, I will follow a crowd and somehow think I am an individual.
I'll do all this and more...I'll scream at the cowardice of those who would bomb a country while I wear a mask to protect my identity.
The lone Chineseman standing in the path of his own destruction is more than these protestors today...school children playing at being their parents during the sixties.
They need to ****ing grow up and realise no-one is listening and their actions only serve to give people a reason to hate them just as much as they hate the elements they protest against.
 
Thoth: I'll get it hosted for you. Just let me know.

As for the violent protest:

Protest peacfully = Government ignores you.

Protest Violently = Government ignores you.

We seem to lose both ways. But when the example is given to us by the government that arguements cannot be solved peacefully, and that war is the only option, how are we to act? I'm most upset that there seems to be more people in the media, and the "outraged community" talking about protests where a few windows were smashed, and a few noses bloodied, than people caring that a market place in Baghdad was bombed and innocent civilians are dying.

I can guarentee you that on network news there will be more footage of the protests than of the blood stained market place in Baghdad. And that's just shallow hypocrisy. People far away are dying and it just isn't real to us.
 
Backo- Why was the nine year old there. He was an Iraqi kid, so I guess to try and show his support for the notion of people not blowing up his extended family and homeland.

The Fuel- I think that is a bit harsh "and of middle eastern appearance so it was obviouse that there were a group there purely to cause trouble". The majority of the schools did not support it, I know mine for sure didn't, but it was something that I wanted to do and support. I also found that a lot of the speeches to be quite good. Sure they were not up to the level of some of the previous rallys but I would not condemn them as useless or unmotivated.

MoeBro- What do you suggest that people who do not condone the war do...sit around watching TV reports that have been edited to show only what the powers that be deem eligible for us to see. I would rather speak and be ignored than to have never said what I believe in.

I am not saying that all the protesters were angels, some were far from it (and I by no means condone their actions) but the way in which the police acted in many circumstances was just wrong. Pulling headscarfs of young Muslim girls and pepper spraying young kids is going a bit above the call of duty I feel. It is disapointing because at all the previous rallys I had been so pleased with how the police handled everything because they DO have a very hard job in these situations. That being said I am also disapointed with the way that some of the marchers acted because it made those that were there for the right reasons look like violent, uninformed, immature idiots, which is a label that I am sure most of us would have liked to avoid.
I was pleased with the way that the Herald reported it as they were fairly unbiased, but having TV crews interview young children who were uninformed once again made as all look like idiots. I dont know, maybe they shouldn't have been there if they didn't know all the facts but having a lots of the news crews specifically choosing to interview kids that they saw wearing primary school uniforms or just looked young instead of some of the older crowd was just begging to get some less informed points of view. Mix that with the footage of people being arrested and you have a great collection of reasons to not allow acts like this in the future.
It was a Books Not Bombs march, so not only was it about getting the troops out of Iraq but it was also about increasing education funding and informing people about the large sums of money that are being put into war at the expense of education. At the moment HECS fees are already exceedingly high and the government is trying to have them raised higher, which means by the time people in my grade get to university none of us will have the dosh to go and can therefore not get adequate training to recieve well paid, stable jobs. Those with money however will be effected in a much smaller way, enabling them to still get training leading to better jobs and stretching the class barriers even more.
I am not particuly fond of Resistance, the group that organised Wednesdays rally, but I honestly think that they did not feel that the rally would turn as out of control as it did in some circumstances. They lack a lot of organisation which in situations where there is a big number of people can cause big problems. The events of Wednesday will probably disenable some of the more effective groups, like the Stop The War Coalition, to get police approval on future rallies, which is a devastating thought.
Once again, I do think that people acted inappropriatly, on both the protesters side and the polices, but it is worse to write of the opinions of an entire age group based on the actions of a few.
 
johnboy said:
I can guarentee you that on network news there will be more footage of the protests than of the blood stained market place in Baghdad. And that's just shallow hypocrisy. People far away are dying and it just isn't real to us.
 
Sowle said:
The Fuel- I think that is a bit harsh "and of middle eastern appearance so it was obviouse that there were a group there purely to cause trouble". The majority of the schools did not support it, I know mine for sure didn't, but it was something that I wanted to do and support. I also found that a lot of the speeches to be quite good. Sure they were not up to the level of some of the previous rallys but I would not condemn them as useless or unmotivated.

Harsh but fair no? I mean c'mon i was there, YOU were there.... if you had to say as to who was causing the majority (if not all) who/how would descibe them? To me it was plain as day....

Fair point about the speeches, maybe i wasn't there when the ones you heard were said, but for the 40mins i was there at town hall square (towards the end before they marched down george st) they really seemed to die in the ass content wise (most of it was chants etc)....
 
and on a lighter note...

Morocco offers US monkeys to detonate mines

RABAT, D.C., Morocco, March 24 (UPI) -- A Moroccan publication accused the government Monday of providing unusual assistance to U.S. troops fighting in Iraq by offering them 2,000 monkeys trained in detonating land mines.

The weekly al-Usbu' al-Siyassi reported that Morocco offered the U.S. forces a large number of monkeys, some from Morocco's Atlas Mountains and others imported, to use them for detonating land mines planted by the Iraqis.

The publication quoted a highly-informed source as saying, "that is not a scientific illusion but a well-known military tactic."

from here: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030324-064259-1443r

Too.. many... jokes... :D
 
Sowle said:
At the moment HECS fees are already exceedingly high and the government is trying to have them raised higher, which means by the time people in my grade get to university none of us will have the dosh to go and can therefore not get adequate training to recieve well paid, stable jobs. Those with money however will be effected in a much smaller way, enabling them to still get training leading to better jobs and stretching the class barriers even more.

[OFFTOPIC]

Dude, thats the beauty of HECS, you dont have to pay it back till you have your well paid, stable job........... Dont bitch about HECS, without it you'd have to pay a good $16k/year to go to uni. Whats worth bitching about is that some people would prefer it students *did* have to pay full fees upfront (instead of your measely $5k/yr HECS debt)....

I couldnt leave that comment without a fair reply

[BACK ON TOPIC]

Fuck the War! :)

Actually I've been working and havent been paying any attention to whats going on, so I cant really comment.. except that protesting is good but people suck.

stace.
 
Stacyrox- Point taken, but it is still a bitch to have increases in the cost. To be that you have to start out your professional life severely in debt is a downer. Plus there is talk of putting HECS style fees on TAFE.
 
Has anyone else noticed just how effective the US killing machine is? Nothing it seems can stand in it's way with out being destroyed. It has indeed become so powerful that it has no natural enemies, except itself...

More lives and military hardware have been lost or destroyed so far because of "friendly" fire incidents not hostile action.
 
Point taken, but it is still a bitch to have increases in the cost. To be that you have to start out your professional life severely in debt is a downer. Plus there is talk of putting HECS style fees on TAFE.
Totally off topic, but this is the least of what is being planned. Examine the Nelson Review and GATT, and very soon we could see rushed through parliament with this war on, the abolishment of HECS in favour of student loans at variable market rates, fixed degree times, and all manner of horribly fucked up shit. Be afraid, I am...
 
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