Should HCG be used at all.?

Genetic Freak

Genetic Freak

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HCG is suggested to stimulate natural test and regain testicular size on or off cycle, especially when shut-down has occurred whilst including 19-nor compounds..



Lutenizing hormone is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicals. The sex hormones in the body work via the negative feedback loop, where too much sex hormone cause a signal to the brain to stop release of (LH).
During long cycles, if natural Test is suppressed a male will note atrophy in the testes, out of disuse, by administering an LH-mimicking agent (HCG) one can bring back function of the testicles, & let them regain size..
HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead it is manufactured in the Pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releaseing hormone (GnRH) secreated from the Hypothalamus.
Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.
This to me suggests using HCG artificially stimulates the testes to produce Test, but further suppresses LH (the bodys natural method)...

HCG is suggested by many on Steroid forums to be incorporated into PCT or used on cycle to retain/regain testicular function. But because testosterone production is stimulated artificially by use of a mimicking agent (HCG), natural testosterone is further suppressed via LH...

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly through a SERM like Clomid then Nolva after cycle be the best way forward..?

How I understand it: It is best to use a potent Estrogen receptor antagonist like Nolva or Clomid, when Androgen levels drop, these antagonists lower Estrogenic response creating a Steroid defecit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH...


Thats how I see it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...
 
I've just got this from a mate that better explains HCG use.....

The most common side affect associated with hCG is gynecomastia. The concurrent intake of Nolvadex with hCG prevents gynecomastia, prevents/minimizes leydig cell desensitization and continues the stimulation of pituitary LH once hCG has been discontinued.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.

When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG.

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion.

Another protocol is the blast method, this can be used if for some reason you haven't ran hCG on cycle.

This is often used towards the end of a cycle and/or the run up to PCT. Much higher doses are used, anywhere from 1000iu-5000iu. An example would be 2500iu - 5000iu shot 2-3 x wkly for 4wks.

A 6000iu shot increased testosterone by 50% but did not alter the T > E ratio. In fact some athletes have used hcg at 5000iu weekly while coming off cycle to successfully balance the T > E ratio.

I think it's worth pointing out that in clinical studies it was shown that a single 10000iu shot desensitized the leydig cells for 96hrs.

I am now using and advocating the protocol of 1000iu injected once weekly.

Here is the science behind this protocol.

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation. Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results. A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion. Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma. The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response. It is advisable to start this protocol around week 2-3 in the cycle and continue till the start of PCT.

As stated hCG can cause gyno, this is probably due to to hCG's ability to incease the dynamics of the CYP450 enzyme, the aromatase enzyme is part of this family so it's possible to note a marked increase in aromatase activity, this should not prove to be a problem if you are already taking Nolva or an AI on cycle for estrogen management but it is something that you need to be aware of.

hCG use and the P450 cytochrome:

Firstly a little basic info on the P450 enzyme and why hCG use on cycle is extremely beneficial. The CYP450 (cytochrome P450) enzyme system is a key pathway for drug metabolism. Many lipophilic drugs must undergo biotransformation to more hydrophilic compounds to be excreted from the body.

The majority of drugs undergo phase I metabolism (e.g., oxidation, reduction) by CYP450 enzymes, this is especially indicative of anabolic androgenic steroids and endogenous steroid hormones. This is a good reason to use hCG. In laymans terms hCG increases the dynamics of CYP450 which in turn increases the rate at which drugs can be metabolized, which in turn increases protein dynamics.

Basically by the action of hCG on P450 dynamics it also increases pregnenolone which is the precursor for all other steroid hormones and has many benefits, one of which is that it serves to keep/restore a natural hormonal balance within this key pathway even if the HPTA is suppressed, it also has energizing, anti-stress benefits, elevates mood through the raising of NDMA activity and reduces excess Cortisol, so if we can increase this steroid hormone with the use of hCG, we should.
 
I have a friend who was a heavy steroid user for 15+ years, no PCT at all, ever. And whack cycles. He would just usually do one compound at a time and do it for a month or 2, then a different one, ect, etc. So test prop for a month or 2, then deca for a month or 2 then winny for a month or 2, then tren for a month or 2, etc, etc....

He got married and tried to conceive. He had not sperm. Dr prescribed him HCG and it was effective for him to get him at least some sperm and with that and using intra utero incemination they were able to get pregnant.

He tells me he has no balls though and when he cums it's like only a tiny ammt spits out and he's been off all steroids for prob like 5-7 years now.
 
On cycle, your whole HPTA is suppressed. The hypothalamus doesn't release GnRH, the pituitary doesn't produce LH/FSH, the testes don't produce testosterone. HCG can't cause much additional suppression because your almost completely shutdown anyway (except for very weak cycles). With HCG, at least one part of your HTPA is still active: your testes. And that's a big advantage because that's the part of the HTPA that takes longest to recover. The reason is that the testes have to produce massive amounts of testosterone (100-200mg per week). The pituitary only produces a few mg of LH and FSH per week and the production of GnRH (in the hypothalamus) is even less than that. That's why pituitary and hypothalamus recover pretty quickly once you start your PCT.
 
why not just go with clomid?

all it really does is alter the negative feed back loop so it DIRECTLY brings your balls back (with a vengeance maybe, because i'm only 5 days into pct and i already have acne and gym-rage).

i don't like the idea of replacing one hormone to bring back another after the latter was replaced...
 
BlueCrest said:
On cycle, your whole HPTA is suppressed. The hypothalamus doesn't release GnRH, the pituitary doesn't produce LH/FSH, the testes don't produce testosterone. HCG can't cause much additional suppression because your almost completely shutdown anyway (except for very weak cycles). With HCG, at least one part of your HTPA is still active: your testes. And that's a big advantage because that's the part of the HTPA that takes longest to recover. The reason is that the testes have to produce massive amounts of testosterone (100-200mg per week). The pituitary only produces a few mg of LH and FSH per week and the production of GnRH (in the hypothalamus) is even less than that. That's why pituitary and hypothalamus recover pretty quickly once you start your PCT.
Click to expand...

I thought the average male only produces up to about 70mg/week...?
 
Sorry, you're right. 100-200mg would be a teenager. For an adult it's more like 50mg. But that's still a lot more than the amount of LH and FSH the pituitary produces.

Lopez said:
why not just go with clomid?

all it really does is alter the negative feed back loop so it DIRECTLY brings your balls back (with a vengeance maybe, because i'm only 5 days into pct and i already have acne and gym-rage).

i don't like the idea of replacing one hormone to bring back another after the latter was replaced...
Click to expand...
Clomid doesn't "DIRECTLY" bring your balls back. Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to secrete more GnRH. The GnRH then stimulates the pituitary to secrete more FSH & LH. Those two hormones then bring your balls back.

If you used HCG on cycle, you start your PCT with your balls fully working. You still need Clomid to stimulate the secretion of GnRH to get your FSH & LH levels up. But once your FSH & LH levels are up, you're back to your pre-cycle testosterone production.

Without HCG, even if your FSH & LH levels are back to their normal levels, you still have to wait for your testes to recover.
 
BlueCrest said:
Sorry, you're right. 100-200mg would be a teenager. For an adult it's more like 50mg. But that's still a lot more than the amount of LH and FSH the pituitary produces.


Clomid doesn't "DIRECTLY" bring your balls back. Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to secrete more GnRH. The GnRH then stimulates the pituitary to secrete more FSH & LH. Those two hormones then bring your balls back.

If you used HCG on cycle, you start your PCT with your balls fully working. You still need Clomid to stimulate the secretion of GnRH to get your FSH & LH levels up. But once your FSH & LH levels are up, you're back to your pre-cycle testosterone production.

Without HCG, even if your FSH & LH levels are back to their normal levels, you still have to wait for your testes to recover.
Click to expand...


GnRH is the first step in the negative feedback loop, stimulating GnRH is the obvious first step as it then stimulates LH & FSH.... LH is not the first step in the chain, instead it is manufactured in the Pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releaseing hormone (GnRH) secreated from the Hypothalamus......
 
But you still draw the wrong conclusions.

It's true that HCG suppresses the hypothalamus and pituitary just like AAS do. But that doesn't matter because you only use HCG on cycle and stop ~5 days before you start you PCT.

The advantage is that after a cycle including HCG, you only have to wait for the hypothalamus and the pituitary to recover. After a cycle without HCG, you wait for the hypothalamus, then the pituitary, then the testes. And that takes longer.
 
BlueCrest said:
But you still draw the wrong conclusions.

It's true that HCG suppresses the hypothalamus and pituitary just like AAS do. But that doesn't matter because you only use HCG on cycle and stop ~5 days before you start you PCT.

The advantage is that after a cycle including HCG, you only have to wait for the hypothalamus and the pituitary to recover. After a cycle without HCG, you wait for the hypothalamus, then the pituitary, then the testes. And that takes longer.
Click to expand...


Depends on how you look at it, I see it as one more expensive compound I could do without.... I was asking a question, I can see your valid argument and agree with it for the right person or circumstances... Although it makes no difference to me I'm on cruise-blast so I'm never off....
 
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