• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Should Dateline be allowed to continue 'catch a predator'?

alasdairm said:
or is your opinion of this show the only possible view?

The same could be said of you. That's the problem with this discussion... it's opinion and there's no way to prove it either way. Why is it disturbing to you that someone would feel the opposite way that you do about the show, but yet if someone tries to argue that they find it disturbing that you feel the opposite way that they do, they're being closed-minded? What about your side makes you enlightened and intelligent for believing it whereas the other side is closed-minded and idiotic?

This discussion will never go anywhere. Other than angry and hurtful places. I came back to check on this after I had been called closed-minded for sharing my opinions here, and given this face --> :|. I see nothing has changed. I really do find it disturbing that there's so much disrespect going on here, on all sides.
 
When it comes to child molesters, there are some people who cease being able to think clearly. They have a witch-hunt mentality in which anyone who has anything less than the most conservative view is a "sympathizer." It's like Red Fever.
 
pennywise said:
When it comes to child molesters, there are some people who cease being able to think clearly. They have a witch-hunt mentality in which anyone who has anything less than the most conservative view is a "sympathizer." It's like Red Fever.

Uh, what? I hope your'e not putting me in that category. I didn't call anyone else's views extreme or absurd.

This is what I said
Sympathy for trolls? What? More like sympathy for children. No sympathy for people who try to hurt children.
This was after she said she expected me to have sympathy for trolls. Understand what I said now?

I don't see why so many people feel the need to put me down when I'm just debating like everyone else. I'm sick of people quoting one little thing I said and using that for some kind of rant against me the poster, instead of the topics I'm discussing. Seams very weak to me. People are trying to prove me wrong by undermining my intelligence or validity as a poster. I'm not that worried about it, just pointing that out.

You might think it is clever to bust my chops with some slick cynical remark, as if you were the almighty To Catch a Predator expert (which no one is)...seems childish to me.

I do not have the most conservative view, I assure you. I am simply telling why I think the show should be allowed to stay on the air. Isn't that the topic? I have repeatedly tried to put this thing back on topic. Why can't I argue my side without someone attacking me? What is it that I say that bothers people - I'd honestly like to know. Or is it just that I have a different opinion?
 
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Xorkoth said:
The same could be said of you. That's the problem with this discussion... it's opinion and there's no way to prove it either way. Why is it disturbing to you that someone would feel the opposite way that you do about the show, but yet if someone tries to argue that they find it disturbing that you feel the opposite way that they do, they're being closed-minded? What about your side makes you enlightened and intelligent for believing it whereas the other side is closed-minded and idiotic?
who said he was idiotic? not me. putting words in people's mouths doesn't help at all.

i'm sorry but what you are saying here simply untrue but if you'd like it distilled, i'm happy to do so. i totally respect spaceyourbase's opinion and i can totally understand why he might think the way he does. i say plainly here, in black and white, that i understand that my opinion of this show is not the only possible view. i am am absolutely willing to admit that i could be completely wrong.

that said, his i'm-a-poor-martyr plea from the moral high ground doesn't work on me. i'm not the one who's polarising the debate by saying "if you don't agree with me you support the molestation of kids". further, i'm not the one who can't even understand that, for whatever reason, somebody might simply have a different opinion than him. if that's not the very definition of close-mindedness, then i don't know what is.

i would hope we're above just labeling everything as an opinion here. "i like 'to catch a predator' because people who prey on kids are evil" is an opinion.

"the show reduces crime" is a claim which should not be made unless the person making it is willing to back it up. if one makes a claim and one can not or will not, there are many conclusions one could draw but the obvious conclusion is, well, obvious. :)

if we don't set the bar at least a little higher in here for that kind of claim, well then we're back at the sohi stage where the level of discourse is "salmon live up trees and eat pencils and until you prove me wrong, i'm right and i've won" which devalues discussion in here completely.

regards

alasdair
 
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I've been aware of PJ for several years, long before TCAP was even a glimmer in NBC's eye. You might be interested to know that there was a time when PJ was PROUD that they didn't work with LEO. They saw LEO as the problem; their ineptness a reason for PJ's existence. Only grudgingly, did they realize that through working through proper channels, would their vigilante group gain any mainstream credibility.

Before TCAP and before LEO involvement, PJ ran for a very long time with almost zero checks and balances. PJ denies this, and as a result, everything pre-2005 has been deleted. Since some of you seem unaware, this is how PJ works. An adult pretending to be a minor logs into a regional chat room. After making sure to establish themselves as an available young girl, they wait for the PM's to come pouring in. Once they find someone stupid enough to show sexual interest, they get an unverified photo and an unverified telephone number. They call the person once, and if someone picks up, they feed the information to the forum vultures; most of whom are former abuse victims with an ax to grind. Based on chat log information and the telephone number, those people then obtain addresses and phone numbers of friends, family and employers, and set up a harassment campaign.

There was also a time (around 2003) when I was able to infiltrate their community and present my opinions on what they did. Back then, I was on the fence. I liked the idea. However, after getting banned for having an opinion, and seeing up close what this group of people is capable of, I've come to realize that when it comes to redeeming qualities, entertainment is about the only thing going for them right now.

I have compiled a list of why PJ shouldn't be in the business of making money and ruining lives.


- PJ is a hate group. Full stop. Their primary motivation is hate and intolerance; not just of wannabe sex offenders, but of everything and everyone who gets in their way.

- They doctor chat logs. In their FUF (follow-up-forum) where 'predators' can come to be ridiculed and beg to have their profiles removed, some have presented evidence that the chat logs were falsified.

- PJ deletes, bans and denies anything that discredits them with quick and shameless efficiency. (check www.corrupted-justice.com for details)

- They are self-reaffirming. Outside criticism is not welcome.

- They go after the low-hanging fruit. The retards that show up on TCAP is their bread & butter. Nevermind the fact that many of these sorry sacks of shit can barely get their dick out of their hand fast enough to get caught on camera. PJ will never catch the very few, and very real online predators. Think of the movie, Hard Candy.

- To date, one of their cases committed suicide, and another has died in prison.

- They don't give a shit about children. Xavier himself has said, "I don't like kids." They don't like anything, really. They're victims turned bullies.

- Their entire MO is to dig up the personal information of people, find out where they live, where they work, and who their friends and neighbors are, and publish that information on their site, so that former abuse victims and vigilantes can find some cathartic relief in systematically ruining a stranger's life.

- PJ will indiscriminately expose 18/19-year-olds. Remember, they portray themselves as old as 15. Sometimes there's a mere 3 years difference between their "victims" who (in reality) are often in their 30's and 40's and their "busts" who are often teenagers themselves. This all begs the question of, who's manipulating who?

- They harass the familes, neighbors, and bosses of people who publicly disagree with them. Many people at corrupted-justice.com have been victim to the same tactics they deploy on online predators; to the point where their neighborhoods have been hit with fliers.

- They don't stop at people. They also have a site called "corporate sex offenders." Those are companies that allow people to express criticism of PJ, or allow people to speak their mind. Sites include Wikipedia, YouTube, 20/20, LiveJournal, and a host of other companies.

- Also don't forget Wikisposure, another subsidiary of PJ, whose goal is to silence any pro-pedophiles on the web by (you guessed it) digging up their personal information and publishing it. Zero points for originality.

I realize a lot of this stuff is independent of what people are arguing, which is the principle of vigilante justice, and entrapment. I just thought people should know what a piece-of-shit operation PJ is running. If you're interested in reading more, this can all be found at http://www.corrupted-justice.com. There's a whole community (most of them ex-PJ'ers) involved in that site; its purpose is to educate the world of what PJ does.
 
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more related reading - this article makes a couple of good points about the claim that tcap reduces crime:

Perverting Justice for the Sake of Ratings

NBC's "To Entrap" a Predator
By DAVID ANDERSON

If you are not familiar with the program, a hugely rated NBC series named "To Catch a Predator" (TCAP)--now in its 8th season - lowers the standards, if that's possible, of our already revolting and brainless TV media to a new low.

NBC's partner in this endeavor is PervertedJustice.com--who are well paid as a consultant--stretching journalistic ethics right there. At P.J. adult "decoys" engage in sexually charged conversations online with adult men they find in role playing and other adult internet chat-rooms. Former Dateline anchor Stone Phillips concedes that "... in many cases, the decoy is the first to bring up the subject of sex." The web logs of their chats are published for all to see online.

NBC takes this one step further in their series - the decoys convince their marks to visit their (especially camera rigged) houses, ostensibly for an evening of under-age sex. When the men arrive they are lured into the house by the decoy, and several minutes later are ambushed by Chris Hansen.

We the audience have a front row seat. From dozens of camera angles we can see the "predators'" lust, surprise, confrontation, oppression, contrition, regret, fear, panic, and in the end to this perfect vouyeristic drama, their fall--take down arrest, and at times--for those who really appreciate the follow up blood, court arraignments. Throughout the decoy house confrontation the men generally have no idea they are being filmed from every angle. But Chris Hansen tells them--don't miss that priceless reaction.

Soon after arrival, the marks are ambushed as Hansen saunters into the kitchen of the set-up house with some breezy ironic line. Hansen proceeds to question them, letting them lie (as they all do), before presenting them with their own weblog transcript and surprisingly often, photos of their genitals they had previously sent the decoys.
Following this public humiliation, and Hansen's holier than thou castigation, he informs the men they are "free to go." The men are free to walk out of the house where each are arrested in a violent felony take-down arrest by the waiting police outside, and later charged with a grab bag of felonies. Wonderful. Sometimes viewers are treated to a search of their vehicles--all sorts of things come up then.

The entire mise-en-scene of the show is worthy of some analysis. It is a classic tragedy cum car crash voyeurism. Toweringly tall Chris Hansen is always standing--he's quite determined to have the marks sit down lower, thus he dominants the cowering, bewildered, frightened sinners. Unbeknownst to these men, the house is wired with cameras so everything said; every movement is recorded and after editing, presented to us the viewer as entertainment.

The men's private, deeply personal sexual emails are read back to them and to us in prurient nuggets of humiliation. And perhaps the most obnoxious part of the whole exercise is tall, looming, Chris Hansen's righteous indignation about their emails and situation. The award for Phony of the Universe is hereby won.
Hansen delights in reading the web-logs; full of predictable, salacious, intimate details of the previous internet chats in all their deliciously filthy glory. We see the men beg, plead, lie, and humiliate themselves like cornered animals, desperate and thinking it's a private conversation. And that's GREAT TV!

Hansen blatantly impersonates a law enforcement official to these poor saps--he addresses the men in language which can only be described as courteous officiousness; telling them to empty their pockets, keep their hands where he can see them, and insists the men sit down. Many of the men talking themselves into jail honestly believe they're under arrest.
NBC's "consultant" - Perverted Justice - has been around for a few years now, publishing conversations between adult men and phony 14 and 15 year olds to humiliate the men who try to seduce them. Doubts the men have about the decoy's ages are assuaged, the men are encouraged to become involved and to try to start a sexual relationship with these decoys. The vigilante aspects of this entire system are obvious.

The decoys are all adults but pretend to be younger. In the US generally we draw the line at various mid teen ages for sexual activities/consent. Without taking sides here, or asking for hate mail, it should also be noted that factually, in almost all times and places of human civilization; crossing all types of tribes, cities, empires, and jurisdictions, 14-15 years old has been an acceptable age for sex and marriage. As it is (with parental or court approval) in some US states today. The notion of 14 year olds being "children" is a recent, largely American construct. But the fact is, in TCAP's carefully selected legal jurisdictions, such behavior is statutory rape, or some computer based derivative crime thereof. From a gut perspective though, sex with a 15 year old seems like long way from the "child molestation" Hansen et al accuse their quarry of.

PJ's FAQ's addresses this age issue on their website, dismissing any country where teenage sexuality is legal as "Third World backwaters". When I queried that with a list of (non Third World backwater) countries with that age of consent in an email to PJ, they addressed their aggressive, holier-than-thou response to me as "Dear Pedophile". These people aren't fighting inappropriate sex, they're fighting Satan.

Hansen's famous line and greatest glee concerns the occupations of some of their victims; "What some of [these dirty molesters] do for a living might surprise you." Seethey're teachers, a rabbi, scout leaders, Iraq vets, and the like - "A respected doctor". Oh how wonderful of Hansen to protect us from his own manufactured fear! It SEEMS such careers employ men who desire teenagers for sex. Go figure! Hansen STOKES that manufactured fear. And notice he stokes it about people's weakest spots--their children.
TCAP has nothing to do with protecting children; it's a Roman Amphitheater blood sport in the form of the lowest gutter journalism on the market today. Which is saying a lot. It's the ultimate car wreck type rubbernecking--to watch another person make life wrecking mistakes, to sin, be humiliated, and punished. What a wonderful feeling. Child molesters are our society's most hated members. Some of those caught in the TCAP trap are no doubt vile serial predators but it looks like most are just very sad and lonely men--virgins unable to get a date with adults, or often just reckless low class losers caught in a trap.

In today's America it impossible to criticize such "kiddy saving" as this without being branded a monster. PJ and TCAP have the upper hand morally. Were it to be so simple, the damage may not be so great. But people are going to jail for years and having their lives destroyed for these totally fake set-up sex chats, for our entertainment. And as with the war on terrorism, the ultimate effects are much more serious and counter-productive than may appear on the surface.

The series has directly resulted in one suicide in Texas where a 'predator' employed by law enforcement shot himself rather than be caught in the sting. The Columbia Journalism Review referenced below detail the specifics of that case. Additionally CJR explores how rare internet predators actually are. Furthermore, the payments from NBC to their "consultants" at PJ has raised the issue of checkbook journalism and resulted in the resignation/firing of a senior and accomplished NBC producer who challenged her employer's ethics regarding TCAP.

In the big picture, not only does TCAP have no discernable effect on child molestation, but similar to many laws passed in haste in response to public outrage, it may even be counter productive. The media love "stranger danger" when it comes to "your kids"--yet the real dangers to children, sexually, are primarily from relatives and family friends.
Such counter productive effects are a common result of our societal obsession with child abuse. (They can be seen also in the War on Terror.) Fox News and Bill O'Reilly in particular have been successfully lobbying states to require a 25 year mandatory sentence for first offense child molestation. Even with the greatest intentions in the world, a far stretch when talking about O'Reilly, such a law will only encourage real child predators to kill their victims/witnesses.

Its clear TCAP/PJ are not helping "the kids"--but rather helping NBC's bottom line, and PJ's demented cleansing agenda. Incidentally, it has been a huge money spinner for Hansen and NBC (see CJR). Hansen is getting his ratings and fame, PJ is getting the media coverage it craves, so who cares if dozens of misguided men have their lives ruined and one has his brains blown out? It is all in a day's ratings for NBC and coverage for a group whose name says more about themselves than their fight - Perverted Justice.

link to source

alasdair
 
My favorite is when Chris Hansen says, 'P LEASE! sit down!" when he comes walking out of the shadows.

His "please" sounds strikingly similar to, "police." and only after a few leading questions, do they figure out it's entertainment and not an inquisition.
 
telling in what sense?

i was discussing this with a friend recently and he mentioned an article he read - unfortunately he couldn't recall the source so you'll have to take this at face value - in which they raised the notion that tcap actually hinders the efforts of law enforcement in general because it encourages molesters to mask their activities and take steps to ensure they can't be traced.

if (big if, i know) this is true, then supporting the show is supporting the molestation of children. supporting this show is not putting the children first. spaceyourbass - how do you feel about the fact that you are supporting the molestation of kids?

again, that last paragraph is more to show how unhelpful that style of debate is rather than actually making the point.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
Some of those caught in the TCAP trap are no doubt vile serial predators but...

I have no sympathy for the ones who aren't vile serial predators. There are plenty of places to meet women and even 18 year olds. There's just something about a man who gets online to try to meet underaged girls. I can't respect him. Do I wish a quarter century in prison for each and every one? No. I want that (well maybe not that long of a sentence) for the vile serial predators. All of these guys are idiots for taking such a big risk, IMO. What it all boils down to is my personal beliefs on the issue.

If I say something like, "it seems to me, based on this logic, that someone who is against the show is sticking up for child molesters," I was more than likely just asking you to tell me why exactly you are against the show again.

I thought they were using some sort of software to record the chats. If they are changing them around, that's very wrong. Still, I don't see how any of the men could be found guilty if that was possible.
 
^ while i agree 100%, you quote is misleading. i did not originate those words. it's obvious i was quoting a third-party.

i've told you many times why i'm against the show and, again, telling me i support child molesters really doesn't help advance the discussion. you play the martyr and claim we're attacking you when you're content to attack others.

yet again, i don't support the molestation of children and to suggest i do is both tired and specious.

i just think that you believe the 'tcap' dogma without questioning it. i'm not attacking you - i'm inviting you to consider that having a valid, but different, view is at least a possibility.

i'm further inviting you to consider that this show's raison d'etre might go beyond or be different to their stated aim. i'm not being difficult or stubborn for the sake of an argument and for the sake of attacking you. i'm simply questioning something - i think that's a perfectly healthy thing to do.

i recognise - and have admitted - that my views could be completely wrong and you could be completely right. that this show is beyond reproach and is a perfect solution to this crime. i accept that your view is one possibility.

if i appear frustrated, it's because i'm disappointed you can't do the same.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
i'm further inviting you to consider that this show's raison d'etre might go beyond or be different to their stated aim.

I agree, this is why I don't watch it. Of course your views are very valid, but what would this thread be without our back and forth jibber-jabbering ;)
 
Just saw this thread and am watching this show for the first time right now.

It is a pretty strange show, it seems that it is more for entertainment than to actually protect children. It also sounds like entrapment, or something similar but on the other hand, if it helps get predators off the street, I suppose I can't really complain. But it also seems that most of these guys are just sleaze ball bastards, out to get laid and fulfill some fantasy, not necessarily sexual predators ... regardless that does not decrease the severity of their actions or intentions ... as you can see I am sort of torn on the issue.

It is pretty sick hearing what these guys talk about with these decoy underage girls on line. From the chat dialogue they show on the show it is more than obvious that these men are actively pursuing sex with under aged girls and intend to have sex with these girls once they meet.

While this might be entrapment or some other semi-unlawful act on dateline/perverted justice's part, chances are these guys who pursue underage girls on line would just have found another girl to chat up if these decoys didn't exist. It is hard to say how effective this show is or if it should keep going. I just hope that if the show continues it actually is helpful to protecting children, regardless how much others might think it is just cheap entertainment.
 
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