Opioids short clean time then short relapse...w/d's again???

[wctome2112]

Hi all...it's been a while since I've been here on Bluelight. Here's my situation...would love any advice, support, knowledge, etc. The info I've gotten from you all at BL has been invaluable in the past. Directly below is the quick summary (for those with short attention spans) and then it's followed by a bit more detail in case anyone feels more info is needed to provide a decent response.

Quit 240mg/day oxy habit on the 08/20 with the help of suboxone. Used 20mg of suboxone for a 2 week taper (12-13mg first day tapered down to .25mg/day the last 3 days). Last suboxone dose was on 09/03. Went till 09/07 (4 days) then relapsed with 160mgs of oxy. Skipped a day (09/08 ) and had nothing. Then took 160mg both yesterday and today (09/09 & 09/10). Am going to stop again and do no more. How bad are the withdrawals going to be?




*****Detailed Info******

Exactly 3 weeks ago I quit a 240mg day oxycontin habit (about 2 years of it) with the help of approximately 20mgs of suboxone. My suboxone taper was as follows (dosage amt are approx as I was chipping off of 2 1/2 8mg pills):

• 08/20 (1 dose late at night around 11pm) - 4mgs
• 08/21 (multiple doses from 6am with last dose at 4pm) - 9mg total
• 08/22 (2 doses @ 5:30pm & 7:45pm) - 4.5mg (total)
• 08/23 (2 doses @ 7pm & 8:30pm) - 3.5mg (total)
• 08/24 (1 dose at 8:30pm) - 2mg
• 08/25 (1 dose @ 5pm) - 1mg
• 08/26 (1 dose @ 2:30pm) - 1mg
• 08/27 (1 dose @ 11:30am) - .5mg
• 08/28 (1 dose @ 1pm) - .5mg
• 08/29 (1 dose @ 4:30pm) - .25mg
• 08/31 (1 dose @ 1:30pm) - .25mg
• 09/03 (1 dose @ 12pm) - .25mg

At this point my w/d's were very minimal. Then on the 09/07 (Tuesday) I screwed up and put myself in a situation where some oxy was literally dropped in my lap. I ended up using 160mgs that day (Tuesday).
Then nothing on Wednesday (09/08 ) and then 160mgs each day yesterday & today (09/09 & 09/10).

*******End of detailed info*********


I don't plan on using anymore (I'm back at home, gonna go back to my 12 step meetings, hang out with other sober people, get back in the gym if I don't feel too shitty, etc). Will those 3 days of use (with a clean day in between) really fuck me up in terms of w/d's? Is it gonna be like completely starting over (this time without suboxone since I don't have any left)? I'm prepared to fight through it doing what I know to do (meetings, exercise, support of family/friends, etc) but I'm also a bit nervous about how bad it's going to be. I'm just a worrier and like to be prepared for something.

So...that's the whole story. I'd love any information, guesses, support, etc. I know I screwed up and will have to pay the price (whatever it may be). I made the choice to use and will have to live with the results...but I'd like to know what's in store for me. I have a wedding to go to next week (leaving on Thursday 09/18 ) and want to know if I'm going to be "functional" for it.

Thanks in advance for any replies. I know it's a lot to read (if you bothered with the detailed report) but I know some people here appreciate the full story and others like the "cliff notes" version.

If anyone has any questions for me or I can help in any way...just let me know. And who knows, maybe my situation is similar to someone else (now or in the future) and this thread can be helpful down the road.

Take care all! It's been a hell of a journey but I still see the light at the end of the tunnel...even if there's been a large obstacle thrown in my way.

-T

 

[StartedHydro]

It's hard to say. Everybody is different. I would argue that yes, you will in fact has some discomfort doing what you just explained... The severity of it would be Anyones guess. I say yes, you will feel off once you stop this latest binge as you really haven't had any true time off to heal. Plus the amount your doing in the short duration is not helping.

You really need a good solid couple months free of opiates/opiods to recover so if you do decide to chip it's a non issue.

In reality you are demonstrating that you can not chip at this stage in your life and maybe never. I'd advise getting on ORT stabilize yourself get straight then look at coming clean. Then just maybe once your more stable less ups and downs anxiety of WDs are gone you might be able to chip.

In your situation at this time it would not be wise to do what your doing. Your going to relapse.

 

[wctome2112]

Thanks for the reply. And to clarify...I didn't plan to use these last 3 days (with the one day in of nothing in the middle) and don't plan to do so again. I have no desire to keep this up or "chip". I want to be done with it and had planned to be done with it. I just f***ed up and slipped up. Hopefully it won't happen again and I plan to do everything I can to make sure it doesn't (meetings, excercise, staying away from certain people & situations, etc). God knows I wouldn't be able to keep this kind of "mini" relapses up.

I just hope the w/d's aren't too bad as I enjoyed being a functional human being the last 2 1/2 weeks. I really hope I don't go back to square one in terms of withdrawals as I don't have the option of taking time off or anything. I've got a busy weekend & week ahead of me, not to mention the leaving for SoCal on Thursday. I really screwed myself over and knew that I'd have some discomfort again...I just was praying that it wouldn't be full opiate withdrawals that I'm going to face.

Thanks again for your reply. Just because it wasn't the "fluffy puppies & sunshine" good news I wanted doesn't mean I'm not grateful. I'm still hoping it's not going to be as bad a square one.

Take care,
T

 

[StartedHydro]

I don't think it's going to be as bad as if you just jumped ship from 240 a day habit for years. I think your going to notice some ill effects in general but depending on how you perceive them is what will determine the severity of them.

That's just my hunch from years of opiate use.... Make sense?

 

[wctome2112]

Yep...makes sense. That's one thing I think it's extremely important. It's all in the perception. I gotta try to keep a positive attitude and not let the little w/d sensations become big sensations in my head.

Thanks!

 

[StartedHydro]

That's just how I viewed it when I was in that situation once or twice.

 

[wctome2112]

Just curious if anyone else has any advice, opinions or info.

 

[dcraver877]

I had a habit not nearly as bad as you (one or twice a week sniffed h). I am just over 3 weeks clean of all opiates and am still not back to normal yet. You need a LONG time off before you can even think about chipping again. I'd wait at least 2-3 months before dosing again and nowhere near as high as you were. Preferably, wait 6 months and don't dose more than once a month, if that.

 

[Druidus]

I've been there, man.

My advice: If you do get sick, purchase some poppy seeds in bulk. Get a lot, several kilos. Now get a couple gatorade/powerade bottles, or, even better (more squeezable) ~700ml plastic pop bottles. Put poppy seeds inside the bottle, filling it aout 3/4 to 4/5. Now fill it with slightly warm water, not at all hot, until it covers the seeds nicely. Make sure the water seeps to the bottom.

Shake that every few minutes for 30-45 minutes. After, use a clean sheet to cover the mouth of the bottle and strain all the liquid through into another container. Squeeze the seeds to get every drop, and I even do another wash of the seeds to get any leftover product.

What you get is a decent amount of morphine. Of course, one bottle isn't a lot of it or anything, but we're trying to quit, right? Drink that, wait 1-2 hours, and guage your level of sickness now. It should be DRASTICALLY reduced. If you need another bottle, go ahead and make one. Use the tea for 3-4 days, then stop.

If you do it right and don't go overboard on the tea (there's no limit to the amount of morphine you can collect), you'll be able to completely negate ANY withdrawal symptoms. Completely. I've used this method several times to quit, and as long as you don't use the morphine tea too long, you won't withdraw from it, because of the relatively low doses you're taking.

If you made a LOT of tea, like 4-6 of those bottles, you'd get a righteous nod from it. But you need to stick to as little as possible. Aim to JUST make the symptoms go away so you are functional, don't aim to get high. The success of this method depends on your determination to function on the ground, not to keep flying, if you know what I mean. It's all up to you, and you CAN fuck up, but it gives you what you need so that you aren't in hell.

It's just maintenace for the withdrawal. Trust me, it works. It's very worth it. I was able to quit IV'd dilaudid (ridiculous doses) and STILL go to university using this method.

I hope it helps you, man.

 

[wctome2112]

@ dcraver877 - Like I said...it wasn't that I wanted to start chipping or occasionally using. It was a relapse...plain and simple (or 3 relapses I guess). I don't plan to do this anymore and didn't plan to do it in the first place. I'm just concerned about the level of withdrawal that is going to come. I know what I'm feeling now is primarily mental (granted, it's only been like 15 hours since I last used) but I'm already anxious and stressing on it. Trying to stay positive. Plan to go to the gym in a bit if I can get away for a bit. But I'm just scared I'm going to feel like absolute hell soon and it's kind of wigging me out a bit.

@Druidus - I'd like to not do anything...even poppy seeds if I can. I'm just hoping my time tapering the suboxone wasn't completely wasted and that the wd's this time will be less intense & more managable.

Sorry all, I guess I'm just stressing cause i'm not hearing what I want to hear. Thanks everyone for the replies. Even if they aren't answering my question or what I want to hear...I'm grateful for you all taking the time to even respond.

 

[HeroinGoblin]

i like that poppy seed tea idea. Im in the same boat as the op kinda, i just quit for about a week than i got a fuckin extreme dui in arizona. (this is a really bad thing) they didnt aresst me they just gave me 7 diff tickets... ANYWAYS, i broke into my stash (iv black tar)when i got home cause i was so bummed out... anyways if i get any w/ds from this 1 or 2 day relapse im goin with the tea =]. i need a lil visit to the land of nod. Reality blows today

 

[gocards27]

Sounds like you have emotional issues for using if you relapse that quickly.

NA meetings would be very helpful for you

 

[jamesBrown]

there is no way we can accurately tell you how bad your withdrawals are gonna be...only you know your body and even then your body can react to situations differently att differet times. It will more than likely be atleast mildy painful but much less than if you had never done the suboxoen taper. Somewhere in between.

Also, if you are truly trying to quit using opiates I would recommend you have a strong support structure like family members or friends to help you stay clean. This is critical in keeping on the right track. I also reccomend using suboxone at very low doses(.25-2 mg's/day) as a maintanence to help you. This is what I do and it has worked wonders for me and I was abusing MUCH more opiates than you were when I switched to only 2 mg's of suboxone a day. The suboxone makes it much easier to not want to go back to using full agonist opiates because its atleast SOMETHING you can take daily that will keep you from getting sick and will even lift your mood and even provide mild opiate effects without the attachment of a full blown addiction.

Ive managed to take 0.5-2 mg's of sub a day for a long time now and it makes me feel great and at those low doses it even gives me euphorical feelings sometimes. That, along with the support of my family has allowed me to completely turn my life around and I am now living a fruitful, happy life....instead of being a homeless IV heroin user wasting away in a prison cell.

I hope my post helped and if you wish to talk more just let me know. Good luck.

 

[Druidus]

@Druidus - I'd like to not do anything...even poppy seeds if I can. I'm just hoping my time tapering the suboxone wasn't completely wasted and that the wd's this time will be less intense & more managable.

Sorry all, I guess I'm just stressing cause i'm not hearing what I want to hear. Thanks everyone for the replies. Even if they aren't answering my question or what I want to hear...I'm grateful for you all taking the time to even respond.

I completely understand, man. It's rough, isn't it?

But I would submit that the seed tea is really only beneficial. You don't get "high" but your negative symptoms do go away. It's great. You don't develop cravings for the stuff unless you do it for a week or more. 3-4 days is fine, and by then you should be almost completely free of the oxycodone.

It's far better than relapsing again because of horrible withdrawals, you know? I used to use it to get high, but I'd use a 2L pop bottle. These little 700ml bottles are really nothing, you're not getting anywhere near a normal recreational dose. But it does make withdrawal bearable, even bearable enough to function at work, university, or school.

At least give it some thought. At least go for the tea before you relapse back to your DOC. You may be surprised. I was, when I first tried it for quitting.

I only needed 5-7 dollars of poppy seeds a day to be nearly symptom free and to be ABLE TO SLEEP (the best thing it helps with). It's very worth it. The ONLY problem is that it caused more constipation than my hydromorphone, but laxatives fix that.

Not trying to push you, just trying to help. I know what it's like, man, and I wish you the best.

i like that poppy seed tea idea. Im in the same boat as the op kinda, i just quit for about a week than i got a fuckin extreme dui in arizona. (this is a really bad thing) they didnt aresst me they just gave me 7 diff tickets... ANYWAYS, i broke into my stash (iv black tar)when i got home cause i was so bummed out... anyways if i get any w/ds from this 1 or 2 day relapse im goin with the tea =]. i need a lil visit to the land of nod. Reality blows today

Good for you, the tea is much better than sticking with the needle. And it WORKS! The downside is there is no rush, but nonetheless it completely removes your withdrawal symptoms if you take enough. And I guarantee, if you get good seeds (a bulk store is almost always good) you'll feel it before you even finish the tea. My body and mind have connected the taste of the tea to easing of the withdrawals, so my first sip actually makes me feel better. It's awesome how well it works, you'll be so surprised.

Anyway, if you or the OP ever want to talk, I'm here for you guys. I've been there, and back, and there again. I know the rules, and I know how bad it can be. I'd love to ease that pain for someone else, because I wish someone had done that for me.

Poppy seed tea is like God's own withdrawal palliative. It works, and it doesn't readdict you if you dose sensibly. Don't expect to get high, and take JUST ENOUGH so that you're withdrawal symptoms are bearable, so you can function in life well enough. Remember, we're trying to quit and ease withdrawals, not get high.

 

[Teonanactylln']

lope. and booze for sleep. werx 4 me.

 

[wctome2112]

I may try the tea. But I need to find out some info before I do. Mainly, where I can buy bulk seeds in my area (The Bay Area...specifically Pleasant Hill, CA). I did some searches but haven't found a physical store selling them. I'm sure there's someplace...I just haven't found out which one yet. And if/when I do...is there a particular kind of poppy seed I should get?

Also, are you confident in the measurements of 4/5 or 3/4 of seed on a Gatorade bottle? I'm kind of worried about getting addicted to the Tea or taking too much so that its the equivalent of my DOC. Also...I guess overdose is a concern as well (such as mixing it with the wrong kind of drug).

Just trying to be cautious and smart about this (assuming I can find some).

-T

 

[Druidus]

I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner, I forgot...

You should be able to find poppy seeds in any bulk food store. They're a common food ingredient. It's the kind of seed that you find on bagels or that poppy seed cakes/muffins are made of.

If you check multiple stores, the best seeds are the ones with the most brownish stuff in them and general dust-like debris. Often this is left over latex or at least bits of pods.

I'm very confident about the dosages, at least for me, and I'm a 160-ish pound male who was VERY addicted to hydromorphone.

Actually, one of those bottles tends to be good only for 7-9 hours. You are supposed to dose twice a day, one or two bottles each time. If you want, you can do it in three doses, and just reduce the dose accordingly. That gives a more even level throughout the day. Obviously stick to one bottle if you can, but if it's too hard and the symptoms are bad, go for two. Or, if you want, one and a half.

Remember to only use it for 3-4 days. If you continued for a week or so, you'd get morphine withdrawals. And it's not a bad idea to reduce the dose each day on the last two. If you follow these rules and don't end up taking a bunch of it in order to get high (stop yourself, that'd be counterproductive, and that's an understatement), then you shouldn't get addicted. There's no rush, it's subtle, it takes away the negative symptoms, and you've got to take a lot to have a really euphoric noddy type high. Really we're just aiming to fill in some of your opiate receptors while still letting your body know it's got to start producing its own again. It's best to still feel a little uneasy, don't remove ALL the symptoms. But get yourself some sleep, eat, drink, have fun not shitting and puking in the bathroom. These are the benefits of the tea during withdrawal.

If, by some chance, you DO get addicted to the tea, well, at least it's very cheap. 4-5 bucks a kilo, I think, and you need like 300-400 for a low withdrawal maintenance dose. If you find you've got some minor withdrawal symptoms after tea cessation, keep taking the tea a little longer, but reduce it by 15-25% each dose.

Even if you do have some withdrawal from the tea, it'll be much easier than the intensity of oxy withdrawal, due to the dosing levels.

If you need ANY other information, feel free to ask me more. I get PMs in my email, so I will see them.

Try looking up bulk food stores in the phone book and asking if they have poppy seeds. If, by some unlucky chance, you buy seed from a bulk store that ACTUALLY did what they were supposed to and washed the seeds extremely well, you'll need a lot more seeds or it won't work at all, so buy a kilo only first, for a test dose. If it works, buy more. Otherwise, look for a different store. In my location, it's pretty easy, because none of them wash well. I doubt they do there either.

I wish you the best of luck, and if you want to talk about anything, ever, PM me. We could chat on AIM or something, if you wanted. I know what you're going through, and it would be an honor to assist in any way I can.

Let me know how the tea goes if you try it. One tip: I don't do this because it tends to make me sick, but if you want to increase the morphine yield from each wash, put in some lemon juice. As much as you can while still keeping the tea palatable. Morphine citrate forms, and is much easier dissolved in water.

BTW, for BEST results, take some antacids before taking the tea, about 40 mins before. Also, the standard potentiators apply.

But you'll probably stick to the base tea, or maybe tea with lemon, and the antacids, rather than potentiating. The goal is quitting.

Let us know how it goes, friend.

 

[Teonanactylln']

mountainroseherbs.com is a great company, if you have to go online, this would be my top suggestion. the seeds are tasty - they make great muffins, and they run $7.75/lb with discounts for bulk orders.

(if this is considered sourcing I apologize - they're just the best company around to pick up any organic herb or seasoning, IMO. been using them for 4+ years now, and they've never disappointed.

Mountain Rose
Bulk Organic Herbs & Spices

Our promise to you, that the line of bulk herbs and botanicals
offered by Mountain Rose Herbs are...


True certified organic by OTCO
Certified Kosher Through Earth Kosher
Free from irradiation, ozone treatment, sulfites, gasses and other sanitary chemicals
Unsurpassable in color, depth, taste and aroma
Ethically wildharvested when not certified organic
Processed and handled according to strict organic standards
Grown, harvested, processed and handled by fun, knowledgeable and caring people
Lab analyzed for quality, safety and true botanical identity

)

 

[Druidus]

mountainroseherbs.com is a great company, if you have to go online, this would be my top suggestion. the seeds are tasty - they make great muffins, and they run $7.75/lb with discounts for bulk orders.

(if this is considered sourcing I apologize - they're just the best company around to pick up any organic herb or seasoning, IMO. been using them for 4+ years now, and they've never disappointed.
)

I get my seeds for about 4.50 a KILO. Almost half that. And they're super potent. It's from a common Canadian bulk store.

 

[Thorn105]

I know this has been answered somewhere in all the Mega threads, but after two hours I still haven't found it, so forgive me for asking it again. I have saved LOTS of seeds from pods I buy, and they are quite dusty. Would it be a waste of time to try and make tea from these? My supplier decided not to check the mail for a couple of days, so my money order has been sitting there, meanwhile, I'm out of pods, knuckles, and even stems. WDs are bound to set in since I am a daily user - answers appreciated. I've got loperimide on hand, but that stuff gives me a terrible headache, almost as bad as WDs.