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Sexual assault during the MAPS trials

S.J.B. said:
I know about Halpern but I hadn't heard this about Doblin. Do you have a source for this? I would be interested to see it.
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i was given a whole article a while ago by somebody on bluelight but i cant find it anymore he was involved in been a informant in a certain drug case agaisn't ecasty and lsd dealers
 
TripSitterNZ said:
i was given a whole article a while ago by somebody on bluelight but i cant find it anymore he was involved in been a informant in a certain drug case agaisn't ecasty and lsd dealers
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I can't find anything, and surely this would be big news in the psychedelic community. Are you sure you aren't mixing him up with John Halpern?
 
t_wrex said:
Recently came across a somewhat disturbing article:

qz.com

Psychedelic therapy has a sexual abuse problem

Over the past five years, scientific interest in psychedelics has boomed, with clinical trials on MDMA leading the way. Now the drug is on the cusp of becoming legal medicine. Early studies testing MDMA combined with talk therapy as treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are...
qz.com qz.com

The gist is that a patient in the MAPS MDMA trials had sex with one of the therapists while under the influence. There was a lawsuit that was filed and subsequently settled, with the therapists (2 were involved) saying that the sex was consensual. (Personally, I don't see how there could ever be consent when one person is drugged, let alone during a clinical trial.) MAPS released a statement last May concerning the incident:

Statement: Public Announcement of Ethical Violation by Former MAPS-Sponsored Investigators – Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies – MAPS

maps.org maps.org

The Quartz article contained a number of noteworthy statements from other assault victims in different trials/situations, such as:














That last quote was news to me. It seems rather cavalier to not require all therapists to be licensed.....

Keeping in mind that this is just one article with statements from a few people, it's not hard to read it and come away with a bit of a soured view on MAPS, or at least to some of the people involved. I fully support the end goal of mainstreaming psychedelic therapy in an evidence- and caution-based way, but damn it if it won't be this kind of bullshit that takes the project down.
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I read the article about the woman named Ross and her rape or sexual assaults, what was in the plant bath that it would get the person intoxicated and trip from just rubbing it on their skin? Did the shaman also sexually assault or sexually abuse/rape the men he gave the plant bath to as well?
 
Xorkoth said:
The article frames it in such a way as to suggest it's a problem with psychedelic therapy in general, as opposed to individuals (or at least the headline suggests it, even if inadvertently). Some subset of the population are sexual predators, there is no reason why this wouldn't be the case for psychedelic therapists as well. In fact it might even be an attractive role for those types, as it could afford opportunities to take advantage of suggestible people. Which does point to the need for strict screening procedures.

It is worrying that media would frame it this way, as it is the sort of thing that could get the project taken down or at least provide ammunition against it. :\
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I am not familiar with MAPS outside an association here and am in full support of any trials and treatments using psychedelics or other drugs as microdosing a few drugs has been proven by bluelighters to help them with their own issues.

Unfortunately there are always going to be bad eggs amongst groups who give bad names to organisations.

Very important to the organisation to be both informed by anyone affected by the bad behavior by the few so they can remove the bad eggs and support the vulnerable to keep the good work going.

Therapists should never engage in sex with their clients licensed or not.

It's better to have people in a clinical trial of sorts to prove microdosing on a drug such as mdma works as it does, some ppl do this privately and the shame in that is it does not help build a case for the use of drugs like mdma, ketamine and analogues of ketamine to help depression or ptsd.

I can't remrmber the name of this analogue of ketamine but some are using it with excellent rests for anxiety and depression on their own as the alternative is not publically funded and beyond their reach financially.
 
So are these bad people or momentary acts of selfishness (which we all do)? I am open enough to know we can't define a person by a few acts. We have all done some human things in our life that can be pointed to as shitty but does not really define who we are.

You all mentioned some names and some shitty things they'e done. Is Doblin really a fake Deadhead douch con man or is his heart in the right place but also a human being with faults? What are the intents of some of these people? I'd hate to right them all off as deceitful due to a few bad actions. Only we can know and judge. But as I look over my life there are a few things I would do different if I had the chance and do not want to be defined by them.

Speaking of past personalities my wife bought me a hard cover of Thanatos to Eros by Myron J. Stolaroff. I almost don't want to know opinions on Myron lol. Lots of talk about sex and issues and emotions. Seems like a solid dude overall. :)
 
JackARoe said:
I saw the article the other day but could not read it. Stuff like this is like dowsing a small flame with a lot of water when it come to the public understanding. This idiot predator gave the media an in to calling these substances perverted. In truth there are a lot of peope with integrity that would not stoop to such selfiish animalistic nonsense. Honestly, I got angry when I saw it in the news. I could punch this dude and I don't want to feel that way. Such delicate stuff and we have a bull in a china shop.
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That was really well said, while I don’t think this should be swept under the rug (not that you weee saying that..) but this guy/s need an ass whooping for possibly single handedly taking this movement to its knees.

Let’s just pray The Corona keeps people distracted.

-GC
 
PriestTheyCalledHim said:
Very true. Timothy Leary and Ram Dass or Richard Alpert used to give women and teen girls high doses of LSD and other drugs and basically rape or sexually assault them, but so did the band and road crew of the dead, however everyone knew they were the biggest drug band.
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Meant to reply to this earlier but do you have a source for these allegations? I wouldn't be massively surprised, but equally I do think such allegations should be backed up. I had a look for something about Ram Dass but all I could find was that he gave some guy LSD hoping to seduce him, thus breaking the agreement he had with the university or whatever, maybe morally questionable but not, IMO, that big a deal, assuming he didn't drug him against his will. Equally LSD would not, IMO, likely be a particularly effective date rape drug - nor would many hallucinogens - empathogens, perhaps, although it would take a particularly psychopathic personality type to actually assault someone while on one themselves.

I don't doubt some seriously morally questionable things happened back in the day involving copious drugs and seriously blurred lines as far as what really counts as consent - but I would think in most cases where deliberate premeditated assault occurred, the substances in question would be of a more sedative nature... and while the idea of (relatively) substance naive groupies serving as entertainment for older, more experienced, perhaps somewhat lecherous individuals under the guise of hippy peace and love might reasonably make many of us uncomfortable, it does not, IMO, necessarily qualify as actual rape or sexual assault. Although, again, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen, sadly. But would like to see some references.
 
Vastness said:
Meant to reply to this earlier but do you have a source for these allegations? I wouldn't be massively surprised, but equally I do think such allegations should be backed up. I had a look for something about Ram Dass but all I could find was that he gave some guy LSD hoping to seduce him, thus breaking the agreement he had with the university or whatever, maybe morally questionable but not, IMO, that big a deal, assuming he didn't drug him against his will. Equally LSD would not, IMO, likely be a particularly effective date rape drug - nor would many hallucinogens - empathogens, perhaps, although it would take a particularly psychopathic personality type to actually assault someone while on one themselves.

I don't doubt some seriously morally questionable things happened back in the day involving copious drugs and seriously blurred lines as far as what really counts as consent - but I would think in most cases where deliberate premeditated assault occurred, the substances in question would be of a more sedative nature... and while the idea of (relatively) substance naive groupies serving as entertainment for older, more experienced, perhaps somewhat lecherous individuals under the guise of hippy peace and love might reasonably make many of us uncomfortable, it does not, IMO, necessarily qualify as actual rape or sexual assault. Although, again, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen, sadly. But would like to see some references.
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I read about it in biographies about Leary and Alpert, and it was very well known that like Allen Ginsberg they were sexual predators, and would give underage boys, girls, teens, or legal adults and then rape/sexually assault them.
 
Milbrook where they setup was a cult giving anybody LSD and really taking advantage of people while they so altered sexually. All these hippie communes were sex abuse cults keeping people dazed in heavy lsd dosages.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
Milbrook where they setup was a cult giving anybody LSD and really taking advantage of people while they so altered sexually. All these hippie communes were sex abuse cults keeping people dazed in heavy lsd dosages.
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True, even Ken Kesey and the Merry pranksters would do this with LSD, methedrine/methamphetamines, and research chemicals like AMT, STP/DOM.
 
Damn... I'll have to get those biographies... out of morbid curiosity I guess, although I'm sure it's going to be harrowing shit. Good to be aware of the dark side of all these historical drug advocates, though. For some reason hearing that about Timothy Leary doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Don't know too much about the rest.
 
I know in my own country during the 90s there was a hippe/religious commune/cult making MDMA and LSD and they sexually abused women and young teenagers (13-14) while loading them up on lsd and mdma 24/7. Eventually got shut down and the leader went to jail.

I still see these thought patterns arise in some people who come into the psychedelic world and somewhere in their messed up mind they believe that life is about orgies 24/7? Cant save everybody i guess some people are just born fucking evil.
 
Man, obviously the whole thing is fucked up but being the perpetrator of abuse under the influence of that classic empathogen MDMA... really makes my skin crawl. I try to bear in mind that none of us are truly responsible for our actions and we're all passengers through life... but, christ, this kind of shit makes it difficult to keep hold of that thought and not give in to anger and the desire for some kind of retribution. But, being that kind of person is it's own punishment, I guess, and I say that somewhat reluctantly.

This is so much lower on the scale it's barely worth mentioning but it reminded me of a girl I used to date who to put it nicely had a lot of problems and was all kinds of fucked up, although I didn't really see this at the time. We did a lot of MDMA together which seemed great at first as such things usually do, but it became apparent eventually that she had no qualms being highly deceptive and manipulative even under the influence of a substance that usually makes it very hard to be anything but open and loving. I guess some people are wired differently. Stating the obvious again, I know.
 
Vastness said:
Damn... I'll have to get those biographies... out of morbid curiosity I guess, although I'm sure it's going to be harrowing shit. Good to be aware of the dark side of all these historical drug advocates, though. For some reason hearing that about Timothy Leary doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Don't know too much about the rest.
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Timothy Leary and Ram Dass or Richard Alpert were both bisexual and had sex with lots of people who they would ply with LSD and other drugs, which is date rape.
 
Any time i come across somebody who is all about Leary and his philosophy the same crazy obsession about sex been the universal secret comes from their mouth. If hell exists leary is probably burning in it as we speak.

This is a very dark side of the psychedelic community that has existed since the 60's but never really been addressed or fixed. Pickards partner skinner would IV all types of psychedelics into street girls and rape them. As the 2020's are here and psychedelics are in resurgence its important everybody calls out this stuff else it will be the same repeat of sex abuse psychedelic cults of psychopaths that we have seen before.

There are groups of LSD chemists who will shut down people like pickard and skinner and if it calls for it have hitmen kill them off. It might be extreme but that is usually the final measure to try keep these sacred substances from abuse and cults.
 
What even is Leary's philosophy? Take a lot of LSD?? By that measure nobody follows Leary like you @TripSitterNZ.. as if to parody the built-up hysteria by painting yourself in a corner..

Especially these kind of cases need the most level-headed approach. Instead the thread gets wild conjecture and irrational outbursts. So taking any drug with your date is rape now, @PriestTheyCalledHim? Pubs might have to stay closed even after covid then..

I might look into the case in depth once we've calmed down. Little use for continuing discussion otherwise..
 
Defining rape and consent in these situations would be the first hurdle to solving these issues.

But sex and drugs go hand in hand. A conservative minded individual might peg the downfall of society in the mid to late 60s because civil rights, sexual liberty, and drug experimentation became common; someone like myself might say that was the start of the age of Aquarius and that it was about damn time people started taking drugs and having orgies and giving rights to all human beings.

Unfortunately, sex and drugs aren't all flowers and roses right? What can you do about that? Everyone is a perv, deep down inside, somewhere. I get horny when I see women in canvass sneakers. Some people actually like feet which I find weird. Some people like people of the same sex and some people like fat people and some people are keen on youth or thinness.

My point is, it was inevitable that sex and drug experimentation were going to end up tethered to one another, they are of the same kind of nature: exploratory.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
Any time i come across somebody who is all about Leary and his philosophy the same crazy obsession about sex been the universal secret comes from their mouth. If hell exists leary is probably burning in it as we speak.

This is a very dark side of the psychedelic community that has existed since the 60's but never really been addressed or fixed. Pickards partner skinner would IV all types of psychedelics into street girls and rape them. As the 2020's are here and psychedelics are in resurgence its important everybody calls out this stuff else it will be the same repeat of sex abuse psychedelic cults of psychopaths that we have seen before.

There are groups of LSD chemists who will shut down people like pickard and skinner and if it calls for it have hitmen kill them off. It might be extreme but that is usually the final measure to try keep these sacred substances from abuse and cults.
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Don't forget about that narc, socipath, and rapist Krystle Cole.

Neurosoup / Krystle Cole and Brandon Green torture - why is Krystle not in jail? - The Pub - Shroomery Message Board

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum. The only reason I signed up an account is that I recently became engrossed in the Len Pickard/ Todd Skinner / Krystle Cole case. I have a few comments to make and
www.shroomery.org www.shroomery.org

 
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