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Serotonin Syndrome from shrooms, 25i, and ginseng/ginkgo biloba?

C

CapnCannabis

Greenlighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
14
What's up, I've been a lurker for quite some time and finally decided to create an account. I am seeking input on whether or not SWIM is suffering from serotonin syndrome. The story begins on New Year's Eve.

So SWIM and a friend got together, and to celebrate the new year they decided to take some psychedelics (what better way to kick off the year haha). They went for a shrooms trip; SWIM ate 3.2g of dried penis envy and was feeling adventurous so he followed that by immediately placing 2 tabs (2mg total) of 25i under his tongue and absorbed them buccally. SWIM ate the shrooms at about 8:30 pm and placed the tabs in his mouth like 5 min later. SWIM kept the tabs under his tongue for ~20 min and pretty much right when he swallowed them, things started to get crazy.

The drugs kicked in extremely hard and extremely fast. It was quite overwhelming. SWIM honestly doesn't even remember the come-up; it was more like going from Sober to Completely Fucked Up in 60 seconds. Not gradual at all. That's when SWIM knew this was about to be a ridiculously intense trip. SWIM managed to stumble over to a bed and lay down (they dosed in SWIM's friend's room on a couch nearby). As SWIM laid there, his heart began beating faster and faster (felt like intense tachycardia) until it got to the point where SWIM thought "Shit. What have I done. I am going to die. I OD'd on 25i. It's such an unknown chemical with a short history of human use I am such an idiot for combining it with a large dose of shrooms and trying a heroic dose". Then SWIM felt his heart stop.

SWIM seriously thought he was dead, but SWIM didn't care. A strange wave of calmness and tranquility rushed over SWIM. It was at this point that SWIM was sucked into hyperspace/the hole/Eternity. Like a primordial pool of lifeforce. SWIM literally blacked out for about 4 hours. SWIM does not remember much of what happened during these 4 hours. SWIM recalls vague bits and pieces of his experiences, such as witnessing the Earth being born and the unfolding of the evolution of all animals on it. SWIM also remembers seeing mysteriously advanced ancient civilizations (such as the Egyptians). SWIM thinks he had the revelation that these civilizations all had one thing in common: the use of entheogenic substances to unlock the doors of perception and experience profound spiritual epiphanies. Terence McKenna's Stoned Ape Theory is quite plausible.

When SWIM awoke from the strongest trip of his life, SWIM felt as if he was in a strange limbo between life and death. SWIM felt very agitated; SWIM was having looping/recursive out of control thoughts, SWIM was twitching and shaking, his heart was racing, and SWIM felt extremely hot/cold at the same time and was sweating profusely. It was the most agonizing thing SWIM has ever endured. Looking back on it, it appears as if SWIM was suffering from serotonin syndrome. Shrooms and 25i both have a strong affinity for the 5HT-2A receptor (particularly 25i) and SWIM had also taken ginseng and ginkgo biloba that day as some of his daily supplements (after post-trip research SWIM found out that ginseng and ginkgo biloba can increase serotonin levels). This lasted for maybe an hour, then SWIM started to calm down and return to normality. The rest of the trip was pretty chill, SWIM vaped some fine cannabis as SWIM sat in front of his computer and listened to Animal Collective and Destroyer while watching the G-Force visualizer (which is wicked btw). SWIM was able to fall asleep at about 6am and slept about 5 hours. It was solid sleep.

The next day SWIM felt thick-headed and out of it, so SWIM thought "I just need to get a good night's rest and I'll feel better tomorrow". So SWIM got a solid night's rest and things seemed to be back to normal. But in the 1.5 weeks since then, SWIM has been having significant insomnia. SWIM is able to fall asleep ok but SWIM wakes up about 2 hours later drenched in sweat and trembling. When this happens SWIM is having flashbacks to the trip and is experiencing sleep paralysis- SWIM cannot move but his mind is awake and it is quite scary. The rest of the night SWIM is wide-awake and paranoid. SWIM will maybe be able to fall asleep much later on (like 4 or 5am) but his sleep isn't very restful. SWIM went to the doctor 2 days ago and he prescribed SWIM hydroxyzine, as that is a serotonin inverse agonist and helps with anxiety/insomnia. Since taking it SWIM's sleep has improved slightly but SWIM still wakes up periodically with cold sweats. Also, SWIM's heart has been feeling fluttery and at times feels like it is palpitating.

SWIM's questions are these: am I suffering from serotonin syndrome or just flashbacks from a very strong trip? Or both? What do you advise I do to improve my sleep? And, is it possible that there is anything wrong with my heart- or is it just anxiety? Finally, what causes death from 25i overdose- cardiac arrest or something?
 
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no you're not suffering from serotonin syndrome. Psychedelics (most of them, 5ht2a ones) just bind to the serotonin receptors and having more serotonin in your brain doesn't make a difference. This is how people mix LSD with MDMA and have no ill effects.

i've had a 25i OD and suffered similarly, it'll go away in a few days or a week. I bet you are just having anxiety. Not sure about the deaths involved with 25i, i think seizures are a bigger concern than cardiac arrest.
 
Thanks for the reply, it's comforting to hear that it is not serotonin syndrome and that you made it through a similar condition.
 
Serotonin syndrome occurs when there is a dangerous excess of postsynaptic serotonin that is not being broken down or re-absorbed. MDMA overdose is similar , but not the same as, serotonin syndrome, because MDMA has actions on the other 2 major monoamines as well, dopamine and norepinephrine, esp. in overdose situations. Serotonin syndrome is usually from combining MAOI (or liver enzyme inhibitors) and serotonin releasers/reuptake inhibitors. The classic example of SS (Libby Zion) was phenelzine (MAOI) and pethidine (opioid narcotic/serotonin releaser).

MDMA overdose actually has similar etiology to amphetamine-type stimulant overdose. In both SS and stimulant overdose, the first priority is almost always controlling body temperature, which can run out of control easily, and lead to permanent damage. It is almost impossible to get SS from 5-HT2a agonists like mushrooms or the 25x series. (The 25x series does have an unusual toxidrome at high doses that is probably unrelated to release of 5HT).

Psychedelic overdoses, wheile they can be very unpleasant and have similar percieved symptoms, are not "serotonin syndrome", and are treated much different than SS is. In psychedelic overdoses the major symptoms are usually mental, (delusions, hallucinations, panic attacks) with physical side effects limited to vasoconstriction in extremities, agitation, and increased heart rate/BP. The coutrse of treatment is almost always reassurance and comfort, perhaps anti-anxiety or anti-psychotic drugs (esp. those that block 5-HT2a/c) to help ease the trip into something more controllable. More often than sot there are few permanent lasting physical effects.
 
sekio said:
(The 25x series does have an unusual toxidrome at high doses that is probably unrelated to release of 5HT).
Click to expand...

Ok, so the agonizing effects I was suffering were from too much 25i not serotonin syndrome. I had taken 2mg of 25i buccally/sublingually on 2 occasions before this trip, and both trips were extremely smooth and enjoyable. I'm guessing the 3.2g of shrooms synergized with the 25i to bring out more of the 25i's (negative) effects. I have had fantastic trips on 25i, but this experience makes me afraid to try the nbomes again. I'm sticking to substances that have a well-documented history of human use.

And RobotRipping, is there anything you did that helped you get over the 25i OD after-effects quicker?
 
Taking magnesium supplements and/or soaking in a bath with epsom salts will help with muscle tension from 25I. Probably good for anxiety too.
 
if you mean physical issues then zn13bt has the right idea. I had terrible muscle tension for a few days after. The mental aspect, well i'll never be the same after that trip for better or worse, it opened my mind to a whole new dimension of tripping. I'll never forget it, it will take a while to integrate the trip and let it settle in, that will just take time. Maybe the alkaloids in the mushrooms had some synergy with 25i, i'd have to look into that possibility but you probably just tripped really hard.
 
Just curious, how big was the 25i dose you OD'd on? And yeah, the 25i trip with the 8th of shrooms opened my mind to a whole 'nother dimension of perception. So many doors were not only unlocked but blasted off their fucking hinges. 25i is a very fascinating chemical, my 2 previous trips on it were pretty amazing. It has a distinctly 60s feel to it and is pretty similar to acid. The visuals are crazy and overall it feels extremely fine-tuned and refined. Feels futuristic.

And zn13bt I will try the magnesium supplements and soaking in a bath with epsom salts, thanks for the tip.
 
about 15mg but could have been as high as 20mg. i made it through that so i'm sure you'll make it out okay. I have a trip report on it in the Trip Reports section if you look for it.
 
sekio said:
Serotonin syndrome occurs when there is a dangerous excess of postsynaptic serotonin that is not being broken down or re-absorbed. MDMA overdose is similar , but not the same as, serotonin syndrome, because MDMA has actions on the other 2 major monoamines as well, dopamine and norepinephrine, esp. in overdose situations. Serotonin syndrome is usually from combining MAOI (or liver enzyme inhibitors) and serotonin releasers/reuptake inhibitors. The classic example of SS (Libby Zion) was phenelzine (MAOI) and pethidine (opioid narcotic/serotonin releaser).

MDMA overdose actually has similar etiology to amphetamine-type stimulant overdose. In both SS and stimulant overdose, the first priority is almost always controlling body temperature, which can run out of control easily, and lead to permanent damage. It is almost impossible to get SS from 5-HT2a agonists like mushrooms or the 25x series. (The 25x series does have an unusual toxidrome at high doses that is probably unrelated to release of 5HT).

Psychedelic overdoses, wheile they can be very unpleasant and have similar percieved symptoms, are not "serotonin syndrome", and are treated much different than SS is. In psychedelic overdoses the major symptoms are usually mental, (delusions, hallucinations, panic attacks) with physical side effects limited to vasoconstriction in extremities, agitation, and increased heart rate/BP. The coutrse of treatment is almost always reassurance and comfort, perhaps anti-anxiety or anti-psychotic drugs (esp. those that block 5-HT2a/c) to help ease the trip into something more controllable. More often than sot there are few permanent lasting physical effects.
Click to expand...

Informative post. Now, lets not go ahead and take excessive doses of 25x though:sus:
 
CapnCannabis said:
Just curious, how big was the 25i dose you OD'd on? And yeah, the 25i trip with the 8th of shrooms opened my mind to a whole 'nother dimension of perception. So many doors were not only unlocked but blasted off their fucking hinges. 25i is a very fascinating chemical, my 2 previous trips on it were pretty amazing. It has a distinctly 60s feel to it and is pretty similar to acid. The visuals are crazy and overall it feels extremely fine-tuned and refined. Feels futuristic.

And zn13bt I will try the magnesium supplements and soaking in a bath with epsom salts, thanks for the tip.
Click to expand...

Capn' , this was a good one to read%) Maybe I will have to try soon 8o
I value 25I in the same aspect, a serious tool not to be taken lightly and with respect. Now if you are from the 60's and doing this still, I look forward to more of your posts=D Let su (or at least me PM) know about other combo's you have 25I in.

btw, how much 25I and ROA with the 8th or shrooms? Sounds like a combo to try for sure Cap';)
 
slo mo said:
Now if you are from the 60's and doing this still, I look forward to more of your posts=D
Click to expand...

I wish I was from the 60s, I sometimes feel I am a hippie born in the wrong generation. My dad was born in 1950 though, so he is one lucky bastard. I was basing my observation that 25i has a 60s feel off of the writings, artwork, and music of that time period. The 25i high is how I always imagined the psychedelic experience when I was growing up, especially its visuals (trippy and colorful geometric, kaleidoscopic designs).

Although I missed the 60s, we are currently experiencing a sort of neo-psychedelic movement as evidenced by the activity on this forum and others. Also, music festivals are springing up everywhere. The smell of radical change (and cannabis!) clings to the air.
 
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