"Serotonin levels causing depression" bullshit

[Infinite Jest]

Think the main point to consider is the absolute lack of evidence supporting the serotonin theory of depression tho. If there were thousands of articles proving low serotonin causes depression you might have a point. There isn't.

I turned up nearly 2000 hits in a Medline search on this subject - not all of them looked relevant, but there were plenty that pointed to a link between serotonin and mood/depression.

Yes but the theory goes that because you take MDMA it lowers your serotonin and this is why you get depressed. I'm just pointing out the that "low serotonin causes depression" theory has as much evidence behind it as the masturbation theory of insanity.

OK, but if you argue that low serotonin has nothing to do with post-MDMA depression, where does MDMA-induced happiness come from? The standard model says MDMA floods the brain with serotonin, causing happiness. If serotonin has nothing to do with emotion, why does MDMA cause happiness?

[Good debate by the way, I appreciate you posting this even though I disagree with you ]

 

[Ismene]

There is quite a lot of research out there supporting a correlation between serotonin and depression.

Where is it?

I turned up nearly 2000 hits in a Medline search on this subject - not all of them looked relevant, but there were plenty that pointed to a link between serotonin and mood/depression

So why do the researchers say But Lacasse and Leo found that: "Not a single peer-reviewed article ... support claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder."

OK, but if you argue that low serotonin has nothing to do with post-MDMA depression, where does MDMA-induced happiness come from?

To be honest I've never had depression from MDMA use. I get a couple of days feeling irritable and a little stressed. Genuine depression is something else entirely and it lasts a helluva lot longer than 2 days. Like 3 or 4 years.

If depression was down to a chemical imbalance why would you get depressed when you got fired or your loved ones died? Go and tell someone their mother has just died and they'll be seriously depressed within 10 seconds. Do their serotonin levels really deplete that fast?

 

[Infinite Jest]

^
No, they'll be sad. Not depressed. There's a difference

You still didn't answer, where does MDMA-induced happiness comes from - I say it comes from serotonin release

 

[Ismene]

No, they'll be sad. Not depressed.

:D

Respect due.

But we can say the same thing about post-MDMA feelings too - they arn't depression either.

You still didn't answer, where does MDMA-induced happiness comes from - I say it comes from serotonin release

Maybe. I don't think the research has been done to establish why MDMA causes feelings of happiness. I get feelings of happiness from lots of things - are they all simply down to serotonin release?

 

[shn()z]

You're putting contradictions in your own posts, Ismene. You admit above that

Genuine depression is something else entirely and it lasts a helluva lot longer than 2 days. Like 3 or 4 years.

Well, close. Major depressive illness is, according to the DSM-IV, a depressed mood consistently for at least a two-week period. But yes, more than two days, and different from the typical "sadness" that one would feel in situations where it was warranted. But then you immediately say

If depression was down to a chemical imbalance why would you get depressed when you got fired or your loved ones died? Go and tell someone their mother has just died and they'll be seriously depressed within 10 seconds. Do their serotonin levels really deplete that fast?

Here you're conflating (intentionally?) the term "depression," meaning major depressive illness, with the colloquial use of "depressed" to mean sad in general. Not everyone who get sad when his dog dies is suffering from major depression, nor necessarily needs antidepressant medication.

Asserting that serotonin levels have an effect on mood, and may be a factor in major depressive episodes, is not saying we are all robots whose every emotion depends on the level in the serotonin tank, regardless of the situation in which we find ourselves. Of course we get sad when bad things happen.

 

[Ismene]

Here you're conflating (intentionally?) the term "depression," meaning major depressive illness, with the colloquial use of "depressed" to mean sad in general

Yeah but most people conflate the term "depression" with the 2 days of irritability you get after taking Ecstasy. Then they conflate the depression with low serotonin levels.

And the black mood you feel after hearing your loved ones have died is going to be far more severe than the mood most people would describe as depression. If serotonin levels were to blame for such changes in mood then how could you feel so down with perfectly normal serotonin levels?

Asserting that serotonin levels have an effect on mood, and may be a factor in major depressive episodes, is not saying we are all robots whose every emotion depends on the level in the serotonin tank

You've got to admit a lot of people DO say depression is down to serotonin chemical imbalances tho. It's the fundamental premise on which the entire SSRI industry is built.

 

[frst2findit]

I've personally seen it go both ways... I've seen friends use for long periods of time at heavy doses and it didn't even faze them. I as a matter of fact have been using for years and I can't say I'm depressed... I get depressed like everyone else but I'm not cronically depressed.

Then again I've seen some people take it for a month or two and vow to never take it again because they say there mood is all screwed up and they're depressed. So, I guess it's all in the person and how it can affect there body and mind.

 

[static_mind]

Yeah I tend to think there is more too it then just serotonin. IV heavly abused MDMA for 2 years now and never had depression. Oddly enough i probably get less scatter now then when I first started.

Is it possiable that the comedown feeling is closer related to Dopamine? Other drugs like Meth and Coke produce comedowns.

bah the mind is too complex to me to grasp....So i wont bother to try

 

[Peruvian Cocaine]

There is quite a lot of research out there supporting a correlation between serotonin and depression.

Where is it?

This is a fucking joke right? Google a search yourself. The amount of literature linking serotonin to depression completely dwarfs the amount that says otherwise.

I turned up nearly 2000 hits in a Medline search on this subject - not all of them looked relevant, but there were plenty that pointed to a link between serotonin and mood/depression

So why do the researchers say But Lacasse and Leo found that: "Not a single peer-reviewed article ... support claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder."

Don't be a tool. You listen to two researchers, but ignore the rest of the scientific world.

OK, but if you argue that low serotonin has nothing to do with post-MDMA depression, where does MDMA-induced happiness come from?

To be honest I've never had depression from MDMA use. I get a couple of days feeling irritable and a little stressed. Genuine depression is something else entirely and it lasts a helluva lot longer than 2 days. Like 3 or 4 years.

If depression was down to a chemical imbalance why would you get depressed when you got fired or your loved ones died? Go and tell someone their mother has just died and they'll be seriously depressed within 10 seconds. Do their serotonin levels really deplete that fast?

You only get that "irratable and stressed" feeling for a couple days because drug induced (not drug abuse) depression is only temporary. If MDMA really permenantly caused depression from a single use, you think it would be as popular as it is today?

Yes, when people's emotions change, their brain chemistry changes as well. No, serotonin is not "depleted" as you say. Your brain actually has reserves of neurotransmitters, serotonin included. When you are in a sad mood, these reserves of neurotransmitters are held back. When you are happy, the brain releases them. Thats the simplest way I can put it.

Of course nothing is black and white. As I've mentioned in the other thread, depression is very complex and it can not be attributed to just one chemical imbalance, but it is undeniable that serotonin does play a role in depression.

 

[thizzdance209]

Well I know personally that a while back when I kinda went on XTC rage did alot of e for about 2 months striaght every week end definatly noticed some short term memory problems but I never got depressed of XTC I think that if you are mentally weak you will get depressed XTC isnt for everybody especially insecure people I have seen people with insecurties on E and that is depressing

 

[Ismene]

This is a fucking joke right? Google a search yourself. The amount of literature linking serotonin to depression completely dwarfs the amount that says otherwise

"Literature" sure. There's a lot of money to be made linking the two so of course there's going to be "literature" about it. What I'm talking about is research of any value. Just because you read something on the back of a prozac packet doesn't mean it's true.

Don't be a tool. You listen to two researchers, but ignore the rest of the scientific world.


Bullshit. For a start it's not just the two researchers, there's another professor in the article above who says exactly the same thing. Is he lying too? Secondly why would they make such a claim if, as you say, it's such an obvious lie?

When you are happy, the brain releases them. Thats the simplest way I can put it.


If this was true SSRI anti-depressants would work on everyone. They only work on a third of people who take them.

 

[birthdaycake]

I think what it all comes down to is who you ask and who you beleive. But in the end, or for right now at least, nobody is really 100% sure that "low levels of serotonin" cause depression.

It comes down to opinion.

I personally think that use of ecstacy does play some role in depression, either later on in life or just when you are coming down from your roll. Is the the total source of peoples depression? Who the fuck knows or can be sure.

In my personal experience, i have taken around 70 pills total of ecstacy in the span of about 5 years. I havent rolled in about 6 months. Currently i am more depressed than ever before, and have been struggling with anxiety. Was it the E? Fuck if i know. Maybe.

 

[Peruvian Cocaine]

This is a fucking joke right? Google a search yourself. The amount of literature linking serotonin to depression completely dwarfs the amount that says otherwise

"Literature" sure. There's a lot of money to be made linking the two so of course there's going to be "literature" about it. What I'm talking about is research of any value. Just because you read something on the back of a prozac packet doesn't mean it's true.

Yes, this is all a conspiracy. Oh no!! You just found out that thousands of doctors are lying in order to profit from antidepressents. Watch out for white unmarked vans outside your window tomorrow.

Seriously, what made you think the literature I speak of was on the back of a prozac bottle? Do a search yourself on independent studies and I gaurantee you that the amount of papers linking serotonin to depression still dwarfs anything that says otherwise.

Don't be a tool. You listen to two researchers, but ignore the rest of the scientific world.


Bullshit. For a start it's not just the two researchers, there's another professor in the article above who says exactly the same thing. Is he lying too? Secondly why would they make such a claim if, as you say, it's such an obvious lie?

I never said they're lying, but they could be wrong.

When you are happy, the brain releases them. Thats the simplest way I can put it.


If this was true SSRI anti-depressants would work on everyone. They only work on a third of people who take them.

The brain is a lot more complex than that. You can't just have a happy pill that works on everyone. There are still a lot of things we dont understand about our brains.

 

[Ismene]

Do a search yourself on independent studies and I gaurantee you that the amount of papers linking serotonin to depression still dwarfs anything that says otherwise.

I never said they're lying, but they could be wrong.

So you can find all this "research" with a 2 minute google search but researchers and professors working in the field for years can't? Doesn't sound very likely does it.

You can't just have a happy pill that works on everyone.

Er..this is what I've been saying all along. If the serotonin theory was true you COULD have a happy pill. But it ISN'T true so you can't.

 

[Rated E]

"If serotonin levels were to blame for such changes in mood then how could you feel so down with perfectly normal serotonin levels?"

Serotonin levels aren't solely responsible for depression. Low serotonin levels still can lead to being depressed. Just because you have low serotonin levels doesn't mean you can't be happy or depressed.

 

[Danni07]

So, I decided to have a look around, and see if there were indeed any studies linking mood disorders (depression) and serotonin. I've found a few, however, I'm pretty sure linking them directly won't work as I've accessed them from my uni database. I'll give the complete references however, and if you're REALLY keen you can have a look for them yourself

O'Rourke, Howard; Fudge, Julie L. Distribution of Serotonin Transporter Labeled Fibers in Amygdaloid Subregions: Implications for Mood Disorders. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Biological Psychiatry. Vol 60(5) Sep 2006, 479-490.

This one I couldn't find the full text, however the abstract looked quite promising...
Nutt, David J; Stein, Dan J. Understanding the Neurobiology of Comorbidity in Anxiety Disorders. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] CNS Spectrums. Vol 11(10,Suppl12) Oct 2006, 13-20.

Hariri, Ahmad R; Holmes, Andrew. Genetics of emotional regulation: The role of the serotonin transporter in neural function.. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Trends in Cognitive Sciences. Vol 10(4) Apr 2006, 182-191.

Tsuji, Minoru; Takeda, Hiroshi; Matsumiya, Teruhiko. Brain 5-HT-sub(1A) Receptors as Important Mediators in the Development of Stress Adaptation. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Current Neuropharmacology. Vol 1(4) Dec 2003, 315-324.

There are heaps more results, but i'm too tired to look at the rest.
For anyone interested, I used the PsycINFO database for my searches.

EDIT: In all fairness, I realised that 3/4 studies listed here are from 2006, after the article mentioned by the OP was published.

 

[Haki]

Well I can definately say that MDMA abuse can help life become a little blue..

I mean, I'm a high achieving, active, 'happy' person.. but it seems I've lost the ability to become really excited about anything.. life is just... a bit.. flat

But yeah, I've been doing pills a lot these days, not in a destructive escapism manner.. just been going out a lot.

So yeah, I agree.. it can cause 'depression'.. or at least, just make people a little flat.

yaz.

 

[Peruvian Cocaine]

So, I decided to have a look around, and see if there were indeed any studies linking mood disorders (depression) and serotonin. I've found a few, however, I'm pretty sure linking them directly won't work as I've accessed them from my uni database. I'll give the complete references however, and if you're REALLY keen you can have a look for them yourself

O'Rourke, Howard; Fudge, Julie L. Distribution of Serotonin Transporter Labeled Fibers in Amygdaloid Subregions: Implications for Mood Disorders. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Biological Psychiatry. Vol 60(5) Sep 2006, 479-490.

This one I couldn't find the full text, however the abstract looked quite promising...
Nutt, David J; Stein, Dan J. Understanding the Neurobiology of Comorbidity in Anxiety Disorders. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] CNS Spectrums. Vol 11(10,Suppl12) Oct 2006, 13-20.

Hariri, Ahmad R; Holmes, Andrew. Genetics of emotional regulation: The role of the serotonin transporter in neural function.. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Trends in Cognitive Sciences. Vol 10(4) Apr 2006, 182-191.

Tsuji, Minoru; Takeda, Hiroshi; Matsumiya, Teruhiko. Brain 5-HT-sub(1A) Receptors as Important Mediators in the Development of Stress Adaptation. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] Current Neuropharmacology. Vol 1(4) Dec 2003, 315-324.

There are heaps more results, but i'm too tired to look at the rest.
For anyone interested, I used the PsycINFO database for my searches.

EDIT: In all fairness, I realised that 3/4 studies listed here are from 2006, after the article mentioned by the OP was published.

thank you danni.

A search at pubmed for serotonin and depression came up with 10998 results. Granted that not all of them linked serotonin to depression, a simple quick glance will tell you that 90% of them do.

Did you need anymore proof ismene?

 

[Ismene]

I think you're missing the point. I've no doubt at all serotonin has something to do with brain function. Otherwise it wouldn't exist in the brain.

What's being questioned is something entirely different. Whether low serotonin levels are a cause of depression. If you can find me a peer-reviewed article proving a link between the two then I'd be interested.

 

[Peruvian Cocaine]

Have you even looked at pubmed? They are linking low levels of serotonin to depression or depressive behavior in animals. It's not simply saying serotonin plays a role in the brain. And even the cited articles by danni all linked serotonin to mood.