Serious Debate - Phsycadelics And Drugs

[kanyeknievel]

I couldn't really think of a good title for this. But this is something I've been pondering for a long time. I've read numerous amounts of posts and threads and peoples experiences on drugs, mainly Phsycadelics, causing them to have 'revelation', or ' makes them smarter'. Things of that nature.

My question for this debate is, do we really need these drugs to come up with these revelations and different thoughts and ways of talking and thinking?
To me, I feel that ALL of us posses every single power within us to make us have a revelation or REALISE something, it's just that the social barrier between these reveleations and thoughts while growing up have caused us to bury these emotions and ways of thinking. We have been accustomed to a certain way of living, and how society as a whole works.

I feel that people say because they took -so and so- they now think differently, or have a new thought. But a drug isn't like reading a book, or seeing a documentary and LEARNING new information, its just bringing up information that you've already LEARNED and KNOW, but you or your subconcious chooses to not bring up.

This is hard to really give a pin point description of what exactly I'm trying to say here, but basically it is. Do we really need phsycadelics and other drugs to become a different person with different views? Why is it that people feel the need to take these drugs in order to precieve things different, when in their mind they already posses the knowledge to do so already?

Are the drugs really necessary and if so, isn't there other ways to realise something that you already know and put it to good use, without drugs?

We all posses the knowledge that we are "revalized" with during a trip, why can't we come up with this without the use of drugs? Sure drugs themselves are fun, and cool and trippy to take and experience. But, theres no saying "Drugs are completely harmless!" When in-fact they can be harmful, very harmful in some cases. If you think differently, then you are ignorant.

As a society, are we weak that we need to have drugs to show us the light, or to bring up things we already know?



P.S - Sorry again if this is all over the place, but I am certainly not a ANTI drug type of person, I feel all drugs should be legalized, but I'm merely bringing up a interesting subject that people seem to forget and thank drugs for, when they should actually be thanking themselves for already knowing this.

 

[nearjat]

I see where you're coming from. Yeah I actually think the notion that psychedelic drugs are providers of unshakable insight is a very harmful one. Yes people do get these "revelations" through non psychedelic means, and really it's so much better that way. Leading a really spiritual and self aware life over time will give you all kinds of knowledge that you didn't start with. Psychedelics are tools, you can use them to break down these subconscious barriers you speak of and start seeing things new. I don't think there's any shame in "needing a drug" to do this, but you can definitely take it too far.

 

[kanyeknievel]

I see where you're coming from. Yeah I actually think the notion that psychedelic drugs are providers of unshakable insight is a very harmful one. Yes people do get these "revelations" through non psychedelic means, and really it's so much better that way. Leading a really spiritual and self aware life over time will give you all kinds of knowledge that you didn't start with. Psychedelics are tools, you can use them to break down these subconscious barriers you speak of and start seeing things new. I don't think there's any shame in "needing a drug" to do this, but you can definitely take it too far.

I agree that it can be used as a 'tool' to help break down the barriers so its easier to concieve these ideas, but tools are here to make things easy in every situation. If you were to build someone without a tool, you feel much better about it than if you did use a tool to build it.
I just think that having people THINK just if they take a drug, they will experience a whole new way of thinking that they never could accomplish without. ANd I think thats a dangerous assumption. I mean LSD, psilocybin, all of those CAN have adverse and servere consequences in a user if not prepared, or just simply out of bad luck. It can permanetley damage users in SOME cases.

I just feel that we are able to have these thoughts and revelations by ourselves, we just dont take the time or necessary steps in order to do so. I think a very healthy way to do this is going to a therapist. In a therapists office you talk and talk and you REALISE things you didnt realise before, out of simply talking and rummaging through your own brain. You come up with new ideas by yourself, that you've known, just choice to forget or not use.

 

[Termino]

I think that drugs can be a short-term shortcut to a temporary apprehension of different levels of 'reality', but in most cases do not create anything that really lasts. That said, I have little doubt that some individuals who have done the necessary preliminary work and are in the right frame of mind may be able to get a spiritual boost from psychedelics that is difficult to achieve with conventional methods (meditation, ritual, Qigong, japa, devotion, etc.). Unfortunately, the vast majority of drug users are in it for the short term thrill and any revelation is just a bonus. Real spiritual advancement is an intensive process that can make use of many tools but still requires hard and protracted work.

 

[Ismene]

But a drug isn't like reading a book, or seeing a documentary and LEARNING new information, its just bringing up information that you've already LEARNED and KNOW, but you or your subconcious chooses to not bring up.

No Kanye I fundamentally disagree with where you're coming from here. I don't think the psychedelic experience is really about what you "know" or what you've "learned". I think the valuable thing about a psychedelic experience - ignoring all the horseshit about "enlightenment" - is that it's a euphoric and wonderfully enjoyable experience. Seeing the world like a painting, incredible laughter, the sheer fun of it. Euphoria is incredibly good for you. That's immensely valuable and it's something that you can never, ever experience from going to a therapist.

If all you're looking for is help with personal issues like dealing with job interviews then perhaps talking therapy might suit you. If you're interested in euphoria, laughter and profound emotional catharsis then stick to the psychedelics.

 

[Ismene]

I think that drugs can be a short-term shortcut to a temporary apprehension of different levels of 'reality', but in most cases do not create anything that really lasts.

Nothing lasts does it. Drug experiences last as long as any other experience.

Life only becomes meaningful and valuable if things don't last. If you were going to live until you were 10,000 years old would life have any meaning?

 

[Termino]

Life only becomes meaningful and valuable if things don't last. If you were going to live until you were 10,000 years old would life have any meaning?

Hmmm. "Meaning" is a term describing the relationship between 'me' and 'not-me': meaning is assigned by the beholder rather than bestowed by an outside influence. Therefore, meaning is whatever one makes of it. Psychedelics can alter current 'meanings' (enter a different reality tunnel) and allow the user an experience not usually attained by one stuck in consensus reality. Even a brief experience can have lasting effects on the way one assigns meaning to hir world. But I certainly concur that the temporal quality of existence is a major factor in the way we relate to our world. The sense of loss (or potential loss) can raise the perceived value of many things. It's a shame, really, that many people don't value something until it's gone.

The OP asked "do we really need these drugs to come up with these revelations and different thoughts and ways of talking and thinking?" and I would reply that no, we don't need drugs to experience these states... but it sure makes it easier.

 

[adrian89987]

I like to think of it like a chemical reaction. Having some realization may be thermodynamically favorable to put in terms of the reaction analogy, therefore it is perfectly possible to realize the same exact message without any psychedelics given enough time. Psychedelics are like catalysts, they lower activation barrier making you realize things more quickly sometimes (and other times just confusing you more or just not having any lasting change).

It's not always easy to put two and two together and put things you already know deep down to better use. And often enough for me at least a psychedelic experience really does help me to realize things I've found.

 

[nearjat]

Nothing lasts. The only real form of enlightenment that I believe in, that can really bring peace throughout your entire life, is whole-heatedly accepting that nothing lasts. And if something doesn't last you cant really rely on it for happiness.

 

[moe.ron]

YMMV

^Pretty much somes it up as far as I can tell. But just to clarify here are some things I've posted in the past that I think are pretty relevent

"what Im wondering is why so many people (myself included at times) feel they have to project there own interpretation of the psychedelic experiences onto others, and say that it is the only possible interpretation. I mean with something that varies from trip to trip so much, how can one say with any amount of certainty what someone else experienced, the validity of what they experienced, and what that person took away from that trip. I mean look it, it comes down to the fact that in the end we are getting very, very high. And what did i experience? Well before I started using psychedelics I was a strict atheist, which to me was the experience of being very, very alone and depressed in the universe. A few years ago i found psychedelics, along with spirituality, which to me was the experience of realizing that I was in fact not a consciousness located behind my eyes looking out through some bag of skin, but rather I was star dust, peopled out of the earth like a an apple from an apple tree. Nothing supernatural, no god, or anything like that, just the *feeling* of interconnectedness explained by science.

I want to talk about interpretation now. Realize everything I've written is just myself, doing the best I can at verbally communicating what happens to me when I take high doses of psychedelics. In my eyes, all interpretation does is muddy the experience. When you start interpreting the experience, you begin projecting your own thoughts, ideas, and beliefs onto it. So when the experience gets so muddied, that others cant even recognize it, I guess I can see why they might not recognize it and call others a liar for their explanation of it. But I will always wonder why people (myself included) reject so rigidly view points outside of there own.

(Psychedelics) make me stupid as fuck... there by letting me realize the simple truths I am normally too analytical to realize. I mean when Im sober as in not tripping I can spend hours debating what it means to be a human, if life is worth it, who I am, etc, etc. But on psychedelics all that goes away and I realize the answers Ive been looking for. Once again you can debate if the psychedelics provide you these insights, or if you knew them all along, or if they just seem important because your tripping, or if anything realized under the influence of a psychedelic is even valid at all but that kind of misses the point completely.

 

[mr.mackey]

I agree that it can be used as a 'tool' to help break down the barriers so its easier to concieve these ideas, but tools are here to make things easy in every situation. If you were to build someone without a tool, you feel much better about it than if you did use a tool to build it.
I just think that having people THINK just if they take a drug, they will experience a whole new way of thinking that they never could accomplish without. ANd I think thats a dangerous assumption. I mean LSD, psilocybin, all of those CAN have adverse and servere consequences in a user if not prepared, or just simply out of bad luck. It can permanetley damage users in SOME cases.

I just feel that we are able to have these thoughts and revelations by ourselves, we just dont take the time or necessary steps in order to do so. I think a very healthy way to do this is going to a therapist. In a therapists office you talk and talk and you REALISE things you didnt realise before, out of simply talking and rummaging through your own brain. You come up with new ideas by yourself, that you've known, just choice to forget or not use.

I don't think you can choose to forget certain things or buried them in your subconscious, the nature of those thoughts or experiences requires that we cannot be aware or conscious of them in any normal way. Psychedelics and therapy are both tools we can use to gain awareness of those aspects of consciousness, and I don't think you can place higher value on therapy or other means of introspection over psychedelic drugs, they are simply two different means to the end of more awareness. If you didn't use psychedelics or therapy to expose those things you "already knew" than you wouldn't be aware of them, and if you are aware of them then for all intensive purposes its is the same as not knowing them.

A part of what makes human beings distinct in the animal world is the proficiency with which we use and create tools. If we have certain tools that are effective at producing the ability to see and explore aspects of our consciousness in novel ways, why shouldn't we use them? They may not be necessary, but that does not detract from their usefulness. Take for instance the internet, it allows us to communicate in ways that would have been unimaginable a decade ago. Sure, we could communicate via written letters, but its much faster and easier to hop on bluelight and start a new thread. Just because something is more efficient or easier doesn't mean we should feel bad or hesitate to use it.

 

[Splitz]

Yep, I'm a weak person who doesn't seem to be able to come to revelations when sober.

Don't mind though. Maybe one day I'll gain that ability. I'm only young anyway, so who knows? I'll carry on trying.

 

[ganja god]

Of course we don't need the drugs to remember or clarify what we already know on a deeper level. For me drugs were the catalyst for spiritual growth though. While its true that meditation has taught me more than drug abuse, it is also true that I probably never would have thought about a spiritual path or meditation at all if I hadn't long ago just wanted to see cool shit and get high and trip out and experience an unexpected existential mindfuck.

 

[Hallucinogens]

I have many agreements and many disagreements with your ideals. I applaud such a thread and glad you are seeking answers. I plan on answering your questions through experience and knowledge of others and myself who have previously collaborated, numerous times, on this very subject and found the actual stem of all you have just questioned.

Before I get started, I'd like to bring up a prologue, of sorts, that is better read before you begin reading the actual answers as it was also the first thing mentioned in the original post. It will give better understanding when reading information pertaining to the vocabulary used throughout this thread. There are many different interpretations and diverse explanations that can be placed on every word that may arise within' this thread that has a need for explanation. This means everytime a different poster uses to same words in debate, it could be said in a way that is completely opposite or even manipulative. This explanation includes the following factors and many more and is something I would like to make very clear. The definitions, criteria, drasticity, meaning, usage of the world (subjective and objective), perception, and interpretation of words used in this thread are completely diverse. This rolls back to the fact that posters using the same word in heavy debate are often misunderstanding each other the whole time due to the many way a word can be interpreted. Using the right words in a way that catches a reader's eye is what has lead to a great lack of education or experience pertaining to the subject, a strong misunderstanding in many people, and countless ill information based on the subject. This is a political ploy that has been used for years because on paper it looks good, but it isn't credible, honest, or reliable. I will explain more on this subject at random points throughout the explaining and answering.​

The truth is, you do need one or many psychedelic experiences at various times throughout your life in order to achieve the level of revelations, self-discovery, realizations, changed views in various but positive ways, a greater care for humanity, nature, and life itself, and even achieve enlightened states. Somethings can be done at an extremely slow pace, while it is a typically unsuccessful product, while a non-psychedelic user attempts to increase or improve on one or many subjects. We will get back to that. But first, we will briefly venture into the above listed items that can only be achieved through the use of psychedelics.

Relating back to the definition and intentions of the used words, everyone's are different but had we all explain our definition of them in depth, understanding would be in play. This understanding is already one effect of psychedelics that comes naturally while communicating and it doesn't take any mental processing to receive and store the information, not to mention the rate in which information can be taken in. A real revelation or realization, by my definition, is something completely drastic that actually has a lasting impact on all your thoughts, regardless of subject. There are those out there who mistake revelations and realizations as the effect of the substance when it could have been realized sober. This is where I agree with you. However, I don't agree with your belief that extraordinary revelations can be unlocked as they are real. I cannot fathom the possibility of psychedelic revelations being comparable to a clear eyed revelation. Views, cares, and drastic changes are all completely real through psychedelics and that doesn't include those with over exaggeration in every thing they see or think. True change, realizations, and revelations come when you fall into a trip. Your mind is being psychologically changed and altered so that you do actually learn and have realizations or revelations. You are also in an extreme state of introspectivity in you will make decisions for yourself based on the effects of the trip. Because of this, it is also incomparable to therapy and hundreds of times more effective for their respected uses. There is only one substance that will create true enlightenment though and that is dimethyltryptamine.


Now, as I previously stated, there are ways that are rigorous and not practiced anymore in today's society, though they are possible the achieve without psychedelics. These things include self-awareness, increased ethics, the creation of morals that are followed strictly. However, as you stated, many people are to wrapped up in society and our overly perpetuated way of life and civilization. So instead of questioning why not to use them, the real question is why aren't we? They are quicker and more effective and do have real, nature, long-lasting effects. Its not that our society is weak, it is that they are loaded with propaganda and don't have the mental strength to habitual deal with psychedelics. So there are these more minute items that can be achieved without the help of psychedelic drugs but it is like walking verses running. The amount of efficiency you get from running is far greater than walking. Thus like psychedelics, the use of psychedelics with a positive, lasting effects is greatly more efficient than the alternative.

To answer your question in a more simple way, we do need psychedelics in order to experience some of the world's greatest wonders and to easily over come the smaller ones. However, achieving some of these while sober is completely impossible and a psychedelic must be in play.

I don't think you can choose to forget certain things or buried them in your subconscious, the nature of those thoughts or experiences requires that we cannot be aware or conscious of them in any normal way. Psychedelics and therapy are both tools we can use to gain awareness of those aspects of consciousness, and I don't think you can place higher value on therapy or other means of introspection over psychedelic drugs, they are simply two different means to the end of more awareness. If you didn't use psychedelics or therapy to expose those things you "already knew" than you wouldn't be aware of them, and if you are aware of them then for all intensive purposes its is the same as not knowing them.

A part of what makes human beings distinct in the animal world is the proficiency with which we use and create tools. If we have certain tools that are effective at producing the ability to see and explore aspects of our consciousness in novel ways, why shouldn't we use them? They may not be necessary, but that does not detract from their usefulness. Take for instance the internet, it allows us to communicate in ways that would have been unimaginable a decade ago. Sure, we could communicate via written letters, but its much faster and easier to hop on bluelight and start a new thread. Just because something is more efficient or easier doesn't mean we should feel bad or hesitate to use it.

This explains the reality of how what may or may not be learned on psychedelics, is real and is possible.

 

[Ismene]

Therefore, meaning is whatever one makes of it.

Perhaps value would be a better word then. Would you be happy if life lasted forever? Or is the fact that nothing lasts in life a source of pleasure?

The OP asked "do we really need these drugs to come up with these revelations and different thoughts and ways of talking and thinking?" and I would reply that no, we don't need drugs to experience these states... but it sure makes it easier

I'm not sure you can know what a psychedelic experience is like without taking psychedelics tho. If we're talking about what you do with the trip afterwards then that's an entirely different thing. As Lennon put it "The trip is the thing. What you do with it afterwards is what you do with it afterwards".