Stimulants Selegiline with Vyvanse - have I microdosed amphetamines?

[Bioshockszz]

Let's see. How can I say this without sounding like a condescending prick. So, a guy who claims to have "developed" a pharmaceutical all by himself, publishes a book promoting its use for the general public, making a claim that is meaningless.

No one develops a pharmaceutical by themselves, mainly because it takes tens of millions of dollars. What is "brain aging"? Is there an assay for that? How would you know a drug "slows" it? It would take longitudinal studies of thousands of people using this drug for non-approved reasons.

This is not a supplement, gentlemen (and xbandit). It's a powerful psychoactive drug that can hurt you.



Maybe a lot of people will be surprised by what I'm about to say, but no, the point of psychiatric medication is not to get a buzz or a rush or feel sparkles in your dopamine ventricles. The point is to suffer less and engage with the world in a more socially-accepted productive way. Not to feel good, or happy, but to go to work like a good little taxpaying citizen (and turn a profit for shareholders).

With insight, you can hope to compare, say, the last couple months of your treatment to where you were in life the previous year, and see if you've had productive changes. Not that the morning med head-rush is qualitatively different today than it was yesterday. If you currently take a powerful stimulant and mix it with other psychiatric meds, you can expect the "feeling" you got from the stimulants to change, that much is true. But it's not the "point" of either of them.

Your treatment is not intended to optimize the pleasure you get from stimulants "kicking in" in the morning.

The "point" of selegiline treatment, specifically, is to offer a tiny improvement in quality of life for people with Parkinson's Disease, actually; and to those with Major Depressive Disorder. MDD being a disease that is considerably worse than feeling really really sad. It is absolutely not "meant" or intended as a way to potentiate ADD meds.


It's why I skip the treatment and go straight to buying this shit off the streets--I can enjoy them kicking in guilt-free.

I get what your saying but just because selegeline wasn’t meant for anything recreational doesn’t mean it can’t be used that way. I wasn’t looking for recreational use but I know people who say it potentiate amps and Ritalin greatly and some say it dulls it. So it can be felt, that’s a fact. I just wasn’t sure what it could possibly feel like, the only thing I know is that this feeling only occurred since taking the selegeline 6 days ago. It’s either that’s or (half jokingly) the microdosing of the amp. It’s one of the two because the selgeline is the only thing I have changed and I’m certain this feeling is caused by that one way or another. I’ll find out in a few days when back to baseline.

 

[Phobos]

Hey Scrofula, I'm gonna start by saying that I agree with you on your view of taking Selegiline together with amphetamines, I really want to make this clear and I apologize if by the way I expressed myself it might have looked like I was suggesting it could be a good idea.

What I mean to bring to this discussion is that there is research published, that shows Selegiline increasing levels of BDNF, NGF, and GDNF, and that the researchers also measured some neuroprotective effects deriving from this.
Some research was in vitro some in vivo, and all on rats, so we do not know yet if this translates to humans and at what dose.
Here's a few links:

https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/ijmm.2013.1450

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11162424/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772055/#!po=42.0

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17447416

I merely intend to suggest that taking low doses of Selegiline might provide advantages that are not tied to his MAOI properties.

I ofcourse have no idea if this advantages could be achieved while taking Selegiline together with amphetamines or not, and I can see that by mentioning this potential benefits I might have come across as supportive of such regime, which I am not as I have not seen any research that would support it, and to the best of my knowledge it is in fact very risky.

Honestly if I was to offer a suggestion to the OP, I would say he would need to quit the amphetamines and any other psychoactive drug(s) to at least 1) be able to evaluate the effects a low daily dose of Selegiline on himself and 2) put an end to the risky situation caused by taking a MAO B inhibitor and NDRA drugs daily.

 

[Scrofula]

here is research published, that shows Selegiline increasing levels of BDNF, NGF, and GDNF, and that the researchers also measured some neuroprotective effects deriving from this.

Oh, but sir, that's not what you said. This is what you said:

The dose of Selegiline that you would take to avoid the MAOI action but get the GDNF, NDF and BDNF increase is 1mg daily.

Of course there is plenty of research showing that selegiline has therapeutic value; but that is not going to be because of some small dosage, but due to its MAO inhibition.

I get what your saying but just because selegeline wasn’t meant for anything recreational doesn’t mean it can’t be used that way. I wasn’t looking for recreational use but I know people who say it potentiate amps and Ritalin greatly and some say it dulls it. So it can be felt, that’s a fact.

Likewise, what you actually said was:

surely you must feel something from segeline or what would be the point in taking it?

Yes, if you take too much selegiline and then eat too much cheese, you will definitely "feel it" in the emergency room. What you are describing is recreational usage. This drug isn't safe for that.

 

[Phobos]

Of course there is plenty of research showing that selegiline has therapeutic value; but that is not going to be because of some small dosage, but due to its MAO inhibition.

So you are saying that the research that shows benefits deriving from action other than MAO B inhibition is not valid?

 

[Scrofula]

So you are saying that the research that shows benefits deriving from action other than MAO B inhibition is not valid?

I would really just prefer it if you'd kindly provide a reference for your original statement. You mentioned a book, that I said you should read skeptically. You came back to say that selegiline increases BDNF. I never said it didn't, just that it wouldn't without also inhibiting MAO B.

My point was and remains that there is no micro-dosing of selegiline that makes the drug do something different than what it does at normal doses. Your links just back me up:

Treatment with 2 mM selegiline for 24 h increased the contents of NGF, BDNF, and GDNF in the culture medium 26-, 1.7-, and 4.2-fold over the control, respectively. With this drug the maximum relative mRNA levels of NGF, BDNF, and GDNF were 6.2-fold at 2 h, 3.4-fold at 6 h, and 2.7-fold at 2 h, respectively. Selegiline at 0.2 mM completely inhibited the MAO activity, but had no effect on the content of neurotrophic factors, suggesting that stimulation of neurotrophic factors by selegiline is independent of MAO-B inhibition.​

It does include the line "independent of MAO-B inhibition." But it is in no way doing what you described with "1mg/day will boost BDNF without inhibiting MAO-B".

Instead, they had to pour on so much selegiline, it took 10 times the dose for complete inactivation of MAO B before they saw an increase in BDNF expression. What might therefore cause the increase? How about the loss of selectivity, in that they are also inhibiting MAO A at this point.

Another link says this: "The possible mechanism of neuroprotection of MAO B inhibitors may be related not only to MAO B inhibition but also to induction and activation of multiple factors for anti-oxidative stress and anti-apoptosis."

Yes, in addition to inhibition of MAO B, there may be other benefits. You'll note that doesn't mean that even those benefits were NOT caused downstream by inhibition of MAO B.

Please, just use selegiline as it is prescribed.

Thanks

 

[Phobos]

I have previously apologized for expressing myself in a very inaccurate way, and corrected myself saying that I believed that it was possible to take such a low dose that MAO inhibition would be very mild while at the same time achieving an increase in growth factors.

I know see how I was wrong even in that corrective statement, as you have clarified in this last post of yours that the concentration of Selegiline needed to stimulate the increase in growth factors is in fact much higher than that used when prescribed for its original purpose.

I'm honestly really thankful that you took the time to find what I had missed and pointed it out.
I really appreciate how often in this forum people like you will help out those that are willing to listen.
Hats off to you.

 

[Steady Scootin]

Weird that dexedrine and vyvanse feel like different drugs, considering that they are, ya know, different drugs. Not trying to be a smartass here, but this thread's premise, and the subsequent... interesting train of thought just might be the result of the opposite of microdosing some speedy pharmaceuticals. Apologies if this has been suggested.

 

[Phobos]

I would think and hope that most of the people posting in this thread are aware that daily ingestion of amphetamine class DNRA drugs is known to produce thoughts that somehow make said daily dosing schedule a good idea since for some reason the accumulation of damage is not happening, and that this type of thoughts should not be entertained if one values his own health.

 

[Bioshockszz]

Weird that dexedrine and vyvanse feel like different drugs, considering that they are, ya know, different drugs. Not trying to be a smartass here, but this thread's premise, and the subsequent... interesting train of thought just might be the result of the opposite of microdosing some speedy pharmaceuticals. Apologies if this has been suggested.

No you’ve completely missed the part where I said diffeeent doses of vyvvanse feel like completely different drugs and even timing of dosing can make different dosages of dex ir feel like completely different drugs. That is weird and someone else commented with a similar experience. So you weren’t being a smart arse, take the smart out of that statement and read through again ;-)

and even so IT is still weird that vyvvanse feels completely different to dex IR given that vyvvanse is metabolised into.... you guessed it... dexedrine. Logically slight difference such as heavier crash would make sense, for dex ir. feeling completely different effects isn’t that logical...

 

[Scrofula]

I would think and hope that most of the people posting in this thread are aware that daily ingestion of amphetamine class DNRA drugs is known to produce thoughts that somehow make said daily dosing schedule a good idea since for some reason the accumulation of damage is not happening, and that this type of thoughts should not be entertained if one values his own health.

This is an excellent point. Something about being on these drugs seems to facilitate reasoning that promotes the conclusion that taking more of them is the best fucking idea ever.

Weird that dexedrine and vyvanse feel like different drugs, considering that they are, ya know, different drugs.

This is an even more excellent point. And yet somehow Vyvanse feels so different, even when you smash the capsules and suck them deep into your sinus passages, there's some kind of je nai se quoi that's just missing with the slow-releasing prodrug.

and even so IT is still weird that vyvvanse feels completely different to dex IR given that vyvvanse is metabolised into.... you guessed it... dexedrine. Logically slight difference such as heavier crash would make sense, for dex ir. feeling completely different effects isn’t that logical...

Like Mr. Phobos was alluding to, you may be taking minor differences (like lack of a head rush) between the two different drugs and their different kinetics, and warping them into "completely different effects", differences which defy only the tweaker logic employed by a tweaker brain in furtherance of more tweak.

I say this kindly, as someone who consumes large amounts of crystal meth. In fact I have Tweaker Logic with me right now; I got straight magical funds yesterday, but while human logic insists waiting another week is the only course of action, Tweaker Logic has the white board out to explain why the time is Now, callers are Standing By, Don't Miss Out This Golden Opportunity to Reup and Get Fucked!

He is not shutting up.

 

[Steady Scootin]

I understand that it's a pro-drug, but they both tend to exhibit quite different effects, as many a thread here on BL, or many a page via Google will show. Personally, I can't stand Vyvanse, but loves Dexedrine back wheba narcoleptic friend threw me a cap every now and then. Dexedrine also has statistics to show that it's potential fornabuse is much higher, so yes, it is a pro-drug, but that doesn't mean their the same thing, hence them not both being called by the same name.

Wading into those useful, if not a bit pedantic waters aside, the dosages and timing thereof effecting the experience can and generally does apply to many, if not most drugs, so I'm not sure what point you believe you've made, but I should have just let this thread lie, so as to highlight threads with more HR needs.

 

[Scrofula]

(I hope you're talking to OP, 'Scootin? Cause I was agreeing with you)

 

[Steady Scootin]

Certainly, Scrof, your reply snuck in while I was typing mine. *ass pat*

 

[Bioshockszz]

It’s related to the very first post actually and the theme of this thread. If you read throughout you’d see the link is smaller dosing of stimulants, their noticeable effects when you take smaller doses then you are used to ie the negative effects, and the first post was about anecdotes of microdosing ie taking much smaller doses than one is used to.My question was is there a link between the two. Stating the difference between Vyvvanse and Dex was a very minor side note, I’m not sure why you’ve chosen to dwell on that.

as someone has said it is very hard to link subjective evidence to factual research and that’s fine and it’s true. Research hasn’t been done on every single scenario of different dosing and combinations of stims and non stims - certainly not on humans, and even if it had research can only every use samples of the population that can only ever give a certain degree of confidence. For that reason, subjective experience can be invaluable and helpful. You came in after that on a slight tangent.

 

[Scrofula]

The problem, OP, is that there is nothing but dubious anecdote regarding "microdosing" stimulants, or any other drug. So, to rehash, even if l-amphetamine had direct effects on dopamine receptors, there's no reason to think simply the less-than-old-school biker speed dose of it would do anything different; just less of it. Microdosing is pseudoscience, at least in terms of expecting whole new mechanisms of action.

Meanwhile, your disparate experiences are easily explained and expected, because you're taking very different forms of a drug. Many a wall of block text with poor spelling devoted to the nuances of different ROAs has been erected by tweakers all across this great internet. To us, the same dose vaped or snorted, provides very different experiences.

[redacted bad tweaker attempt--hey, I was on my phone and had to pee, give me a bit and I'll do better (kind of embarrassing reading that on my laptop all proper like)(plus, it was making fun of tubbs)]

 

[Bioshockszz]

The problem, OP, is that there is nothing but dubious anecdote regarding "microdosing" stimulants, or any other drug. So, to rehash, even if l-amphetamine had direct effects on dopamine receptors, there's no reason to think simply the less-than-old-school biker speed dose of it would do anything different; just less of it. Microdosing is pseudoscience, at least in terms of expecting whole new mechanisms of action.

Meanwhile, your disparate experiences are easily explained and expected, because you're taking very different forms of a drug. Many a wall of block text with poor spelling devoted to the nuances of different ROAs has been erected by tweakers all across this great internet. To us, the same dose vaped or snorted, provides very different experiences.

[redacted bad tweaker attempt--hey, I was on my phone and had to pee, give me a bit and I'll do better (kind of embarrassing reading that on my laptop all proper like)(plus, it was making fun of tubbs)]

i agree.

Just another question, 10 days after my one does of Selegeline, my vyvanse is working differently. When it wears off I feel dizzy, weak and irritable. Could the elvanse be interacting with the selegeline effects somehow?

 

[Phobos]

All the symptoms listed are, as far as I know, typical of amphetamine crash, meaning that if you take a break from Vyvanse, you may then enjoy the positive effects of your stim without these side effects for a while.

If you choose to continue without a break, you may notice your Vyvanse becoming less effective and these side effects worse.

 

[Bioshockszz]

All the symptoms listed are, as far as I know, typical of amphetamine crash, meaning that if you take a break from Vyvanse, you may then enjoy the positive effects of your stim without these side effects for a while.

If you choose to continue without a break, you may notice your Vyvanse becoming less effective and these side effects worse.

i had a three day break, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It’s not the crash I get from dex ir although you’re right those symptoms are common. It started after that one dose Selegeline. Just wondering if that’s still preventing the breakdown of dopamine in my brain, or some other MAO B activity, could that be the contributing to this feeling?

 

[Scrofula]

The number that keeps coming up is "two weeks" for brain MAO to turnover (and note that any MAO that needs to be replaced is covalently bound to a selegiline; it also means one selegiline that did not get oxidized to l-amphetamine*.

But you took a single sub-therapeutic dose (not micro-dose, but deci-dose?) right? So it's not likely that you wiped out every last MAO-B protein and need them all to be replaced. I would assume all those mitochondria across your great brain are churning away full bore on your dopamine.

I have a feeling though, that if you really look back at your dose-equivalent IR stimulants** you'll find either that no, you felt tired when they wore off too, or that you are actually getting more in your Vyvanse than you thought.

And really, compared to before or not, what did you expect to happen when your speed wore off? I say that with only the lightest of snark possible with me, to point out you're not actually analyzing your situation, but finding reasons to indict Vyvanse or Bluelight Safety Advice™ on combining it with selegiline. Because you much prefer, or at least your reward pathways prefer, the IR formulation, and you're trying to potentiate/"sensitize" the Vyvanse into an IR med.

It's not just that it's horribly unsafe that I keep throwing words at this thread, it's that the feeling you'll get is not going to be the same as an IR elation. It's going to feel more like (when you eventually go to the full selegiline dose) dopamine toxicity, something like stimulant psychosis or probably neuroleptic malignant syndrome. I'm sorry, but you just can't add extra chemicals to match the sensation of a bolus of stimulant hitting your brain at once.


*And really, all that talk of neuroprotective effects, BDNF and heat shock proteins, and no one mentioned the desmeselegiline metabolite? That is the missing ingredient sometimes when you hear selegiline is not all MAOB inhibition.


**dex:dex ratios mean the same weight of Adderall provides only 62% that of Vyvanse. So though you may see an Adderall equivalent dose accounting for the added weight of lysine in Vyvanse, they're taking Adderall as equivalent amphetamines. A 70mg Vyvanse would equate to over 100mg Adderall (in terms of d-amp only, remember. The added blast of l-amphs still counts for your adrenergic systems). Vyvanse really is a big pile of amphetamine, just with a delayed onset and somewhat broader duration. Don't be fooled because you don't get a head spin when you snort it.

 

[Bioshockszz]

The number that keeps coming up is "two weeks" for brain MAO to turnover (and note that any MAO that needs to be replaced is covalently bound to a selegiline; it also means one selegiline that did not get oxidized to l-amphetamine*.

But you took a single sub-therapeutic dose (not micro-dose, but deci-dose?) right? So it's not likely that you wiped out every last MAO-B protein and need them all to be replaced. I would assume all those mitochondria across your great brain are churning away full bore on your dopamine.

I have a feeling though, that if you really look back at your dose-equivalent IR stimulants** you'll find either that no, you felt tired when they wore off too, or that you are actually getting more in your Vyvanse than you thought.

And really, compared to before or not, what did you expect to happen when your speed wore off? I say that with only the lightest of snark possible with me, to point out you're not actually analyzing your situation, but finding reasons to indict Vyvanse or Bluelight Safety Advice™ on combining it with selegiline. Because you much prefer, or at least your reward pathways prefer, the IR formulation, and you're trying to potentiate/"sensitize" the Vyvanse into an IR med.

It's not just that it's horribly unsafe that I keep throwing words at this thread, it's that the feeling you'll get is not going to be the same as an IR elation. It's going to feel more like (when you eventually go to the full selegiline dose) dopamine toxicity, something like stimulant psychosis or probably neuroleptic malignant syndrome. I'm sorry, but you just can't add extra chemicals to match the sensation of a bolus of stimulant hitting your brain at once.


*And really, all that talk of neuroprotective effects, BDNF and heat shock proteins, and no one mentioned the desmeselegiline metabolite? That is the missing ingredient sometimes when you hear selegiline is not all MAOB inhibition.


**dex:dex ratios mean the same weight of Adderall provides only 62% that of Vyvanse. So though you may see an Adderall equivalent dose accounting for the added weight of lysine in Vyvanse, they're taking Adderall as equivalent amphetamines. A 70mg Vyvanse would equate to over 100mg Adderall (in terms of d-amp only, remember. The added blast of l-amphs still counts for your adrenergic systems). Vyvanse really is a big pile of amphetamine, just with a delayed onset and somewhat broader duration. Don't be fooled because you don't get a head spin when you snort it.

The effects I’m feeling are after 2-3 hours well before the vyvanse wears off. And in no way am I saying Selegeline is safe with elvanse, the exact opposite. I took once and said the effects were horrible. I also crashed really bad from ir dex. I don’t crash at all from vyvvanse never have and still don’t. I’ve started taking vitamin c supps in the evening. Could be that. Highly coincidental that it happens after the selegeline when in the previous 6 months that never happened

i get a better feeling if well being on the vyvvanse than dex ir anyway but that’s irrelevant, I’m not looking for euphoria. I really don’t know where you’ve drawn those points from lol. Alls I asked is could selegeline interact with vyvvanse in such a way to produce the effects I described?

And dex ir was truly horrendous for me at three different dosages. In no way,shape or form was I trying to simulate that effect lol. And actually I get the “head spin” euphoric effect one hour after taking vyvvanse and I never get tolerance to this... you are the online equivalent of a doctor who just reads from his guide book on medications without actually understanding or listening to the patient lol