Scottish Independence v. Further devolution, or just convoluted lies?

[ponch]

I read an interesting article today about soldiers, when you join the army you swear an oath of allegiance to the queen. If the yes vote goes through what will happen to all the Scottish soldiers? They will wake up without a monarch.

Also Scottish soldiers have fought and died for the union (Northern ireland) and now you are just wanting to throw it away? Seems a bit harsh really.

Evey, alasdair won't be able to vote. He is a deserter.

 

[Glowing aaron]

Sick of you whinny scots, free higher education, prescriptions, elderly care, already have more autonomy than "England" an now being promised even more money to stay in the Union. And you're still not happy .

Yes you have North Sea oil but don't start thinking your Dubai. At the end of the day it is the financial markets that determine the success of a nation and money will flee from Scotland quicker than you can blink if the vote is yes.

 

[nailz]

I read an interesting article today about soldiers, when you join the army you swear an oath of allegiance to the queen. If the yes vote goes through what will happen to all the Scottish soldiers? They will wake up without a monarch.

Nothing will happen, they will be the same as all the other foreign nationals in the British Army, once they have resided for 5 years in the UK they can serve.

Also Scottish soldiers have fought and died for the union (Northern ireland) and now you are just wanting to throw it away? Seems a bit harsh really.

Again that means absolutely nothing. There are Irish people in the British army. Where have you been reading this bullshit?

 

[One Thousand Words]

I read an interesting article today about soldiers, when you join the army you swear an oath of allegiance to the queen. If the yes vote goes through what will happen to all the Scottish soldiers? They will wake up without a monarch.

Also Scottish soldiers have fought and died for the union (Northern ireland) and now you are just wanting to throw it away? Seems a bit harsh really.

Evey, alasdair won't be able to vote. He is a deserter.

The Queen will still be head of a Scottish State. Those soldiers will have to attempt a coup for this not to be the case

 

[ponch]

Hah that will teach me to benzo and internet, I didn't verify anything that I read from that article. The point still stands though what happens to the soldiers? the British armed forced will be divided up I imagine. What if you don't want to serve in the Scottish forces but you serve in a Scottish regiment?

 

[Eveleivibe]

Lol OTW what's whether he can vote or not got to do with him having an opinion on independence?

Evey

 

[ColtDan]

you don't get to vote in this one, evey.

Don't I? How do you know, Ali? Is it just Scottish peeps who vote?

you don't.

because i read.

yes.

alasdair

Lol

 

[Chatative]

I cant see it ever actually happening as most scottish have the intellect to realise they'd be fucked.

I'm not quite so sure on that most part. I guess well find out soon.

I'm sure many probably think Mel Gibson is the leader of the Yes campaign. Considering the amount of thought that has been put into it, he might as well be.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Oh I loved Braveheart. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned until now lol after all the film was based on a true story. The English have a lot to answer for really. They conquered Svotland n Wales. Forced us Welsh to speak English. Would flog the kids if the dared speak Welsh in school etc.

Hah that will teach me to benzo and internet, I didn't verify anything that I read from that article. The point still stands though what happens to the soldiers? the British armed forced will be divided up I imagine. What if you don't want to serve in the Scottish forces but you serve in a Scottish regiment?

Interesting question. Would love to see what answers you get to it.

Evey

 

[ScotchMist]

The English are/were cunts, granted. Braveheart is not based on a true story though, it's loosely based on some things that happened at different points in history..

 

[Sammy G]

How about we go back further, to when Scotland, England and Wales didn't exist as separate entities? To a time before the Romans laid the foundations for the division of the island? To a time before the Saxons and the Danes, when we spoke an indigenous language and worshipped our own deities, rather than practising some middle-eastern cult?

All imperialism is exploitative, be it English, American, Ottoman or whatever.

 

[BecomingJulie]

I've heard it said that there are no indigenous Britons, just the last-but-one invading party .....

 

[Chatative]

Braveheart is vaguely based on a true story

Indeed. Just consider the glaring omission of a bridge at the Battle of Sterling Bridge in the film. 8)

Again, a perfect analogy for the Yes campaign.

 

[ponch]

Wasnt it also the king of scotland that signed into the union rather than being 'conquered'

 

[Eveleivibe]

The English are/were cunts, granted. Braveheart is not based on a true story though, it's loosely based on some things that happened at different points in history..

Oh, I never knew that, always thought it was based on a true story.

How about we go back further, to when Scotland, England and Wales didn't exist as separate entities? To a time before the Romans laid the foundations for the division of the island? To a time before the Saxons and the Danes, when we spoke an indigenous language and worshipped our own deities, rather than practising some middle-eastern cult?

All imperialism is exploitative, be it English, American, Ottoman or whatever.

Good post , Sammy G. Fair play you always come up with intelligent posts.

Evey

 

[Sammy G]

Wasnt it also the king of scotland that signed into the union rather than being 'conquered'

Yep. Somewhat ironically, it was (in part) an attempt to recover from the miserable failure of the Darien scheme, which was Scotland's attempt at establishing itself as a colonial power and a global trading nation.

Good post , Sammy G. Fair play you always come up with intelligent posts.

Even the dick jokes and cartoon misogyny?

 

[Eveleivibe]

Yep. Somewhat ironically, it was (in part) an attempt to recover from the miserable failure of the Darien scheme, which was Scotland's attempt at establishing itself as a colonial power and a global trading nation.

Even the dick jokes and cartoon misogyny?

Wellllll, let 's not go too far, eh?! Just make the most of me being nice to you lol

Evey

 

[Vurtual]

The union was founded on the basis of bribes to the lairds of scotland with no consideration for the actual population's wishes (as rabbie burns mourned 'We're bought and sold for English gold').

What is the union anyway, it's a nicer way to describe a little empire in effect (all empires claim that their clients are willing, and the local beneficiaries of the system heartily agree while they can keep their privelige)

This is about democratic self-determination and not nationalism - the majority of the yes side would not describe themselves as nationalist - more likely social democrat. The no side (or at least it's campaign) smells much more of the 'bad' type of nationalism than the yes if you ask me - they're the ones more likely to go on about queen and country, glorious history, the army and the benefits of empire. Nonetheless i'm certain that the 'little people' no voters' views are heartfelt and should be respected whatever the result (though there is a strong impression that many on the no side vote out of personal financial interest (seems like lots of business owners in the no vox-pops on the news)).

The divsion between conservative/reactionary and radical/revolutionary runs through every political debate and is about psychology - and we need a healthy balance of both types of personality in any society/party to function; but this vote should be about the ideas in themselves, not the position that people take emotionally, whether fear or euphoria-based - and it largely has been in scotland (despite how it appears in ruk media).

Some rare pro independence guardian articles (there aren't many):

George Monbiot - How the media shafted the people of Scotland

Billy Bragg - Scottish nationalism and British nationalism aren’t the same

John Harris - It’s not just Scotland where politics as usual is finished

 

[Sammy G]

The union was founded on the basis of bribes to the lairds of scotland with no consideration for the actual population's wishes (as rabbie burns mourned 'We're bought and sold for English gold').

No different from practically any European nation you could care to name.

The no side (or at least it's campaign) smells much more of the 'bad' type of nationalism than the yes if you ask me

Read that back to yourself sometime. Seriously. Think 'good AIDS'.

What is the union anyway, it's a nicer way to describe a little empire in effect (all empires claim that their clients are willing, and the local beneficiaries of the system heartily agree while they can keep their privelige)

The union is an inviolable fact of geography, shared customs and language - an ancient one at that - which was only disrupted by the invasion of a foreign empire.

 

[Vurtual]

Read that back to yourself sometime. Seriously. Think 'good AIDS'...

The implication is that the 'civic nationalism' on display in scotland is the same as hitler - that's not true; there are plenty of examples around the world where democratic self-determination has sprung from a nationalist-liberation base without it being the sort of fascist thinking of the nazis (which was much more a creature of nasty establishment thinking anyway - like they way the Mitfords or Edward VIII thought). If you use the category of nationalism you must be able to distinguish these very different types.

Read the Billy Bragg link - he says it better than me.

Here's a quote:

The ethnic nationalism of the BNP is there for all to see – a plan for a society that excludes people on grounds of race. The programme of the SNP takes a diametrically opposite position – an inclusive society based on where you are, not where you’re from.

This is civic nationalism – the idea that all citizens should be engaged in the process of deciding where society is headed, not just getting their hands on the tiller once every four or five years. It utilises the n-word because democracy on a national level offers the best opportunity for fundamental change.

However, civic nationalism isn’t the ideology of the modern SNP, it’s the fertile ground that it grew out of, via the Scottish Constitutional Convention – an alliance of community activists, politicians and civic leaders that came together in the 1980s to campaign for a Scottish parliament.

The SCC was mainly made up of the great and the good, but the current referendum on independence has inspired many different groups in Scotland to engage in debate about how their society could be better organised. Social media has changed the landscape, allowing everyone to express opinions and exchange ideas.

Pro-independence initiatives such as Common Weal, National Collective and the Radical Independence Campaign have invigorated the electorate in Scotland, pitching ideas for a fairer society with different priorities to those most commonly found at Westminster. The audiences that come to their events are not nationalists in the Nigel Farage sense, fulminating against immigrants while complaining that they’re not allowed to be Scottish any more.