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Scottish Independence v. Further devolution, or just convoluted lies?

Should Scotland become independent?

  • Should stay how things are now

    Votes: 6 15.0%

  • Should become fully independent

    Votes: 20 50.0%

  • Should extend devolved powers but remain part of UK

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • I am Spade

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • Total voters
    40
Well the scottish people ARE these organisations - that's why it's grass roots. And scotland are socialist (or at the vary least social democrat); they're naturally labour supporters - it's just the labour of Keir Hardie not blair broon and dead millipede. They voted for Salmond because he did a good impression of a social democrat.

Scottish people aren't fools - they know more than most the bullshit of neoliberalism (via thatcher). Any patronising argument that they just don't understand how to run things will just add to the impression of being shafted by an elite and won't wash at this stage (hence the mess that the current propaganda campaign has become). Also, so many people have been so engaged in detailed political debate that the average scot probably knows more about how things are run than most westminster politicians currently.
 
Chatative said:
I am? News to me.
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OK sorry; i should have said on average the majority are or something (but it's a pretty uncontroversial statement; SNP's fake social democracy notwithstanding - the majority certainly aren't natural tories put it that way).
 
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Vurtual said:
they're naturally labour supporters - it's just the labour of Keir Hardie not blair broon and dead millipede.
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They voted for New Labour in droves! There's nothing about the Scottish people which makes them more resistant to neoliberalism, as long as the neoliberalism in question isn't peddled by card-carrying Tories.

As for Scottish people 'knowing more' about neoliberalism than most, how about the other massive swathes of the UK which were blighted by Thatcherism? I see no similar 'grass roots' movements presenting a challenge to the status quo in these areas, many of whom suffered just as much, if not more, than Scotland.

The driving force is nationalism. Which is not essentially a bad thing. To dress it up as some kind of stirring of the revolutionary spirit among the proles is a little naïve at best.
 
It just isn't nationalism though (in the hitler sense) - that's a very small part of the debate (and i'd say that sort of thinking is more at home on the union side (queen and country, orange order etc). Yes we should have a grass roots movement in the rest of the uk, but don't begrudge soctland having one because we've been too useless to do it.

They voted new labour and hoped that they we're keeping some socialism secret, just like the saps in the rest of britain. They've then seen (like the rest of us) how new labour is thatcherite. They've now had enough (they had enough when they voted for salmond who positioned himself to the left of new labour) - we should thank them for bringing this into a debate (despite the efforts of the media to keep it about salmond and the currency).

I know it seems strange what is happening in scotland because we haven't had much experience of it; but that's democracy - it should feel slightly revolutionary, because true democracy is.

By the way if you want to know what's going on in scotland, don't read the guardian, independent, or any 'proper' media - the lies and obfuscations being peddled by all the media is more blatant than ever (with BBC's nick robinson taking the cake). There are no daily newspapers in scotland that are for Yes (just one weekly). The bbc is supposed to be impartial, but isw provably biased. Go to the Radical Independence Campaign-type websites to see the difference in reporting.
 
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Vurtual said:
It just isn't nationalism though (in the hitler sense) - that's a very small part of the debate (and i'd say that sort of thinking is more at home on the union side (queen and country, orange order etc).
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Scottish nationalism has nothing to do with the Orange Order, or even the queen for that matter. Both are powerful symbols of Unionism, which is of course a type of nationalism of its own, but Scottish nationalism it ain't.

Vurtual said:
They voted new labour and hoped that they we're keeping some socialism secret, just like the saps in the rest of britain.
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No, they voted New Labour because they aren't the Tories, and because (despite their myriad faults), the Labour party remains the closest realistic hope of some kind of social democratic agenda. Oh, and because of tribal loyalties too.

I'm sorry, but this is not the dawn of the Revolution. Though you're free to hold your breath should you so desire.
 
Yeah that's what i said - I was referring to the no campaign getting support from the orange order, and the orange order march just the other day - the bbc reported it as 'a no campaign march' without mentioning the order (as that would be bad pr). On the same day there was a massive spontaneous demo for yes in glasgow - the bbc reported it with a picture showing a small handful of people when the march actually filled the street http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/indy-glasgow-in-pictures-yes-to-real.html - on the same day when nick robinson did his bullshit.

This is a nice overview of the independence campaign: The Butterfly Rebellion

The BBC, the banks, the newspapers, the supermarkets, the Labour Party, the Tories, the generals, the civil servants. Between them they can’t muster up either a persuasive case for the union or a believable threat.

Us? We’re over 350 totally independent campaigns, each set up by activists, each self-funded, none centrally controlled. We don’t pay too much attention to the media but learn and research from the internet. We hold meetings (I’ve spoken at coming on for 250 public meetings in the last two years). We are the most informed citizens in the world right now. I left a meeting in Hamilton Miners’ Welfare and a retired labourer caught me on the stairs and quizzed me about what I thought the position would be with ten year bond yields in an independent Scotland. Kids can talk you through the details of the Shengen arrangement. Most of us can run you through the constitutional position of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Unit.
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Saw this posted from one of my Scottish friends on Facebook. Worth a read, I'm English but agree that we are (Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland) not going in the right direction with the current UK government, too many fat cats skimming everything for themselves and their public school boy mates.

Here's the post.

I was at Petrol Station Filling up the car when guy approaches me saying

See you got a yes badge on , What you going to do if its a yes vote and we run out of oil , be no petrol and diesel IF WE VOTE NO

Spent 10-15 minutes going through things with him and explaining the facts not fiction the facts .
and then Showed him the following post .He now a yes voter
these are sorta people we need to convince that there reasons for voting no will harm us and nothing but lies .

For any of u that missed it here is the post

Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%

But we DO have...

32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production.
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% if the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whiskey industry.
We have a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
A 9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion pound whiskey exports industry
3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

We have 25% of Europes wave and wind energy potential.

And finally we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population... Whaow Scotland should be rich!
IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I DONT LIKE ALEX SALMOND" or "I DONT LIKE SNP"...
THIS VOTE IS ABOUT SCOTLAND'S RIGHT TO ELECT ITS OWN GOVERNMENT... IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ALEX SALMOND OR THE SNP.
DONT LET POLITICAL IGNORANCE RUIN THIS OPPORTUNITY.

Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in our history of being better-together is as follows...

The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world

The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union

The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world

The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU

The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU

The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries

The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU

The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe

The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe

The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.

The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality in the entire planet!

But surely these awful figures cannot be possible when you read the following Scottish statistics...

Now, finally, did you also know that in all of the UK's elections for Westminster ever!... Not one vote cast in SCOTLAND has ever mattered! Because of the Westminster numbers, whatever government England votes for, the UK gets. So we have no democracy here!!! 4 decades of tory rule that we voted against is proof enough, and our defiance was punished by the closure of all the mines; closure of all the steelworks; closure of all the shipyards losing hundreds if thousands of jobs. The term used by Westminster's Thatcher when these industries needed some assistance was "let the markets decide". Funny how when the greedy bankers collapsed everywhere they were bailed out to the tune of over a trillion pounds of our money... Not a mention of "let the markets decide".

FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Hesaltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80's to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!

Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out a out the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)

Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though as our nations government, Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!

Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in our waters is finished and its a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!

Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!

Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep us if we were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?

Fact: Westminster has amassed over £1.3 trillion debt and still growing at nearly £6000 a second. Thats another £516 million today alone which YOU will have to pay for.

Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence, and very few of them have the assets we have.

SCOTLAND, WHAT ARE WE SCARED OF? WE HAVE A CHANCE... WITHOUT A SINGLE BULLET BEING FIRED, WITHOUT A SINGLE DEATH... TO GET OUR FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PUT A CROSS IN THE YES BOX.
SCOTLAND, ITS TIME TO STAND UP AS A NATION AND VOTE YES ON THE 18TH OF SEPTEMBER... AND BECOME A FREE AND CARING NATION AGAIN!!!
VOTE YES AND SET OUR COUNTRY FREE!!!!
Y E S ! ! ! Y E S ! ! ! Y E S ! ! !
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^Good Post

@Sam: The orange order were supporting no (whether the official no campaign wanted them to or not (publicly)) - those loony bowler-hatted bigots are the closest BT can get to grass roots. And i was talking about the main 10oclock news broadcast - they usually have the details somewhere so they can't be accused of cover up (standard practise)

Edit: that link you gave was for BBC NI, where they did mention the order; in BBC scotland or uk they didn't. (and on the news at 10 broadcast they simply referred to it as a no march). The lies are obvious atm if you look for them.

I'm hoping that the yes creeping up in the poll at the top of this page mirrors the real one on thursday :) (i'm sure that'll trigger a few no votes though)
 
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OK (they weren't before when i checked the other day). My point about 10 oclock news stands (see if you can find the broadcast pictures of those 'thousands' to compare (there are sites with both pictures on) (i'd find them myself, but i've really got to go do some work now)
 
Well I was going to wade into this debate all ignorant saying, "What the fuck difference would it actually make if Scotland was independent? They seem to have put the cart before the horse, drumming out rhetoric saying we'll figure out the details AFTER the vote!" But this thread has actually been pretty enlightening. I get the sense that the mainstream media (BBC) is actively avoiding discussion on the practical matters of Scottish independence and is instead dressing it up as a nationalist wankfest. I speak as a resident of England, and I'm still largely uninformed regarding this issue; I think the BBC should be doing MUCH more to actively educate the public on what Scottish independence could mean for the British isles.
 
Sammy G said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/sc...ism_scotlanddecides&intc_linkname=footer_home
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Was that supposed to be an answer to the bbc not wanting a proper debate? (two days before the vote) - too little too late; any mention of RIC on there? (or bellacaledonia, wings over scotland, wee ginger dug, craig murray etc). They're on the back foot at the moment and have pulled back a bit after being caught out so badly the other day. The bbc's performance on this has been worse than its usual bias (btw that's proven right wing bias daily mail people) - there's respected academic studies showing this bias, it's not just opinion (i'll look it up later - i'm still supposed to be working) - alright here you go, from earlier this year (though i think there's another one too) - http://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014...ort-indyref-bias-scottish-media-blackout-must (stop stopping me working you!)

The Fairness in the First Year? Study was a year-long content analysis using fairly objective measures of fairness and balance to assess mainstream TV coverage of the Scottish independence referendum. The imbalance the research identified was more marked in the BBC/Reporting Scotland coverage than in the ITV/STV coverage, although both broadcasters fell significantly more towards favourable coverage for No than Yes statements.

The study found that, overall, there was a greater total number of ‘No statements’ compared to Yes; a tendency for expert advice against independence to be more common; a tendency for reports to begin and end with statements favouring the No campaign; and a very strong pattern of associating the Yes campaign arguments and evidence with the personal wishes of Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond. Taken together, the coverage was considered to be more favourable for the No campaign.
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