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Scottish Independence v. Further devolution, or just convoluted lies?

Should Scotland become independent?

  • Should stay how things are now

    Votes: 6 15.0%

  • Should become fully independent

    Votes: 20 50.0%

  • Should extend devolved powers but remain part of UK

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • I am Spade

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • Total voters
    40
Why should they be independent ? Why should they be different to the rest of us? What's wrong with being part of the UK? Surely it's better to be united? I feel it would be a shame to be all separate. Only advantage is they wouldn't be under Tory government.

I hate the Tory. Labour.

My family wanted me to vote UKIP but I refused n voted Plain Cymru. It's ok the UKIP saying all what they're saying. But so did Nazis n how do I know that they wouldn 't be like that if they ever came into power?

Use immigrants as a scapegoat n propaganda to get popularity - then who would they target afyer? Disabled, elderly???? I don't trust them.

Sorry slight subject change.

Evey
 
They've had enough of being under our shitty government. and economical reasons. dunno much else about it apart from that. I think my stance on Scottish independence will be solely decided on what it would mean for the price of Scotch.
 
We are currently a fairly major player in the Nuclear weapons game with our Trident Nuclear submarines that are kept in a Scottish Loch. As the SNP want Trident removed from Scotland, it would cause a huge problem, as there isnt really anywhere else in England or Wales that they can easily move them to without having to spend billions on the project. So not only would the rest of the UK be less powerfull economically, we would also be less use as an ally to the US in nuclear deterrent terms. It would be bad news all round for the rest of the UK.
 
The independence debate in scotland has awoken a real grass roots democratic movement which has been largely brushed over in the uk media - this bottom up people power (and the likelihood that it would be 'progressive') is what is really scaring the london elite into full on lie mode - the 'threat of the good example' is probably making most elites around the world pretty nervous (this is a much bigger threat to THEM than isis could ever be).

The yes vote is very little to do with nationalism, but mostly is about self determination - the yes voters realise that they might have a chance to vote in governments that actually represent them and start to create a country that isn't enslaved to neoliberalism. I doubt there would be much unrest (exepct maybe fake stuff paid for by us/uk (they've got form)) - the debate has been almost entirely good natured (see the spontaneous Yes demo in the link below: the crowd chanting 'even if you're no, we still love you!')

The referendum puts paid to the myth of voter apathy: as soon as a vote comes along which has a chance of actually changing something, people really want to get involved. There's a lot of sour grapes from english labour supporters which sounds like 'don't vote for your independence because it'll be bad for english labour' (when they should have loyalty to the little people, not some party machine).

The lies being peddled by the BBC and the corporate elite are starting to unravel (see alex salmond catching out the government breaking electoral law and the bbc lying the other day? (the bbc covered it but very misleadingly).

Anyone interested in fighting back against the neoliberal consensus should support scottish independence i reckon - there's no other chance like this on the horizon. People may say Salmond looks pretty neoliberal, but the vote isn't for him (he's still to the left of labour anyway). If scotland became independent, the democratic process would undoubtedly produce governments more to the left than westminster - this would benefit all other countries too with that threatening good example. No doubt the financial elite would do their speculating best to wreck the project, but we'd be able to see that in action and it would only increase support for political independence from them in the long run.

So i'm for yes (though i also doubt the elite would be able to resist a vote fiddle with so much oil at stake).

...

Seen this link of how two scots on a richkshaw welcomed the 100 labour MPs sent up to scotland (on expenses) - by playing the star wars Imperial Theme?:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/glasgow-greets-its-imperial-masters/#comments (scroll to the top)
 
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See this link of how two scots on a richkshaw welcomed the 100 labour MPs sent up to scotland (on expenses) - by playing the star wars Imperial Theme:
Click to expand...
Ha! That's brilliant. Put a smile on my face; excellent work.
 
Chatative said:
You want rid of us that bad?

Just the Scots. I'm sure it'd be a landslide yes majority if the English/Welsh got to vote. :p
Click to expand...

Nah - everyone I know wants to keep the union, but accept it's up to the Scottish. I don't consider myself English,as my roots are more Welsh / Scottish, so I would be sad to see British as an identity disappear (that's totally beside the prospect of perpetually being under the yoke of tory scum).

I don't know what I would do if I was living in Scotland and had a choice. The promise of being freed from the calculated erosion of our security and rights would be hard to resist. It just seems that it's all too much of a risk and liable to make things a hell of a lot worse (if you say 'how can things be worse' then you've a paucity of imagination). Plus Alex Salmond is an opportunistic creep, even more so than most politicians.
 
Yeah you are right... I found a recent poll just after I posted that that suggested most people in England/Wales/Ireland were rooting for a No victory.

The way I see it, logistically, there is too much that is unknown or hasn't been planned for very well. 10-15 years down the line, an independent Scotland might well be doing well for itself but I'm quite sure things would go downhill for at least a few years should we become independent.

Plus politicians are politicians. I've no doubt the Scottish Government with full autonomy will end up just as bad as Westminster in many ways. Better the devil you know...

I was rather amused to see a notice by the SNP to the effect that a Yes vote wasn't for Alex Salmond or the SNP, but for the country. :D

I wonder what will happen to Alex Salmonds credibility if the referendum should fail, which I expect it will.
 
From what I can gather, he's not very popular even amongst the staunchest yes voters. It seems that most people who want out would ditch him pretty soon after the referendum anyway, in favour of some kind of Scottish Labour Party.
 
In fact the only Scottish people I've spoken to on the matter IRL have been rabidly pro-union - billowing about emigrating etc. Granted, they were all of a type - twee Kelvin/Morningside lawyers, so not really a surprise. :|
 
I'm Scottish and I'm saying 'no'. Just too risky economically - seems to be no clear plan for after separation.
 
This is what worries me but I suspect that opinion polls won't reflect the actual outcome, which is perhaps why there appears to be no clear plan for transition.

Who knows though... I guess we'll find out at the end of the week.

spudgun said:
From what I can gather, he's not very popular even amongst the staunchest yes voters. It seems that most people who want out would ditch him pretty soon after the referendum anyway, in favour of some kind of Scottish Labour Party.
Click to expand...

More devolved powers & an end to the reign of the SNP sounds fantastic to me. Would be the best thing Alex Salmond ever did.
 
Vurtual said:
The yes vote is very little to do with nationalism, but mostly is about self determination.
Click to expand...

This is correct, and is a very suggestive reason to vote yes. However, the economic realities of the world at the moment coupled with Salmond having absolutely no clear short term economic plan if seperation is achieved is what will deliver a relatively comprehensive no vote. Key is the substantial amount of undecided voters who we can assume will in large parts vote for the status quo.

If I were a betting man, and I am, I'd stick money on the no vote winning by at least sixteen percentage points. My spread is between 58/42 to 64/36.
 
Vurtual said:
The independence debate in scotland has awoken a real grass roots democratic movement which has been largely brushed over in the uk media - this bottom up people power (and the likelihood that it would be 'progressive') is what is really scaring the london elite into full on lie mode
Click to expand...

I think you're hijacking the referendum to bolster your own leftist agenda here. I see little in the way of a 'real grass roots democratic movement'.

Vurtual said:
The referendum puts paid to the myth of voter apathy: as soon as a vote comes along which has a chance of actually changing something, people really want to get involved.
Click to expand...

Just like they did in 2004 for the northeast regional assembly referendum which was such as disaster that it tanked any plans for further such polls elsewhere in the UK?

Vurtual said:
Anyone interested in fighting back against the neoliberal consensus should support scottish independence i reckon - there's no other chance like this on the horizon. People may say Salmond looks pretty neoliberal, but the vote isn't for him (he's still to the left of labour anyway). If scotland became independent, the democratic process would undoubtedly produce governments more to the left than westminster - this would benefit all other countries too with that threatening good example. No doubt the financial elite would do their speculating best to wreck the project, but we'd be able to see that in action and it would only increase support for political independence from them in the long run.
Click to expand...

This is complete speculation, verging on fantasy. There's no telling where an independent Scotland would be in ten years' time, but I highly doubt that they'll have abandoned the neoliberal template. Even if they did, one tiny country situated at the arse-end of Europe is not going to influence the economic policies of the remainder of Europe and beyond. Even the USSR and China struggled to truly influence the culture of their client states, and that was with then ever present threat of tanks rolling in.
 
^ well i'm just describing what many people on both sides of the debate have said about the campaign (ie it's the most engaged people have ever been in politics; it's very good natured; politics will never bee the same etc). There are vibrant debates going on in village halls all around scotland, not organised by SNP or any party, but done by little people. And it's the Radical Independence Campaign (RIC) part of the movement (ignored by bbc/media) that has collectively provided most of that grass roots element (eg wings over scotland and their 'wee blue book' and bella caledonia) - they've just tapped into the already existing support for the social democratic model that they got from labour, but which labour abandoned (this is the same among the poor of the rest if the uk too, ukip notwithstanding).

It's not me that's inserting the stuff against neoliberalism - that's a major part of the campaign. Just look at some of the many independent websites supporting independence saying the same sort of stuff - it's those sort of non-affiliated bottom up decentralised campaigning techniques that have really made this campaign - as i said, this is what really scares them (they don't want us as politically engaged as say venezuela (the 'best democratic process in the world' as described by jimmy carter).

If the possibility of independent scotland becoming more progressive wasn't a threat to the idea of neoliberalism, we wouldn't be seeing such moves against it from the uk neoliberal elite - of course the neoliberal states would gang up to make the country fall, and there wouldn't be much avoiding that, but we're wise to that shit these days (and how long do we continue being blackmailed by these crooks). As US planners know, all it takes is that 'threat of a good example' for the 'dominoes' to start falling.

@RLP - i've heard that the undecided includes many people who don't usually vote - which includes large numbers of shit poor estate dwellers (as well as the reactionary status-quo-ites who are usually assumed to be the non-voters). These are the people who RIC have been focusing on, so i don't think it's certain either way which way the undecideds will go; though people on the ground suggest there's much more momentum and enthusiasm for the yes side

All the polling shovels in assumtions based on previous voting patterns of demographics - i'd suggest that with such a high turnout predicted, including many who've never voted and so can't be categorised by polling methods, the polling could still be miles away from the actual result.
 
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Vurtual said:
If the possibility of independent scotland becoming more progressive wasn't a threat to the idea of neoliberalism, we wouldn't be seeing such moves against it from the uk neoliberal elite.
Click to expand...

If it were that much of a threat to the 'neoliberal elite' then there would never have been a referendum in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how Salmond, with his support for 15% corporation taxes, history of collusion with his buddy Murdoch and apparent willingness to jump into bed with NATO constitutes a clear break with neoliberalism.

As is often the case, I'd like to agree with you but simply can't, based on the evidence I've seen.
 
IT'S NOT A VOTE FOR SALMOND! There'll be an election to see who forms the government after independence - why vote for the SNP when you've already got independence? (granted they may get a thank you vote, but not much more (especially when people realise he's basically pro-neoliberal; he just went all social democrat to beat labour in the scottish parliament).

And he isn't even responsible for the swing to the yes side. It's the RIC that has made it what it is. Salmond is still getting the credit in the media because they don't want to give succour to anything radical. Some of the independent non-party people who have made the debate in the campaign will no doubt stand for the parliament; maybe with some new parties (but the political knowledge the little people have developed in this process is not going away).
 
With the best will in the world, I really don't see the Scottish electorate, with all the economic uncertainty which a 'yes' vote would entail, putting their trust in a bunch of flakey and disparate socialist organisations, which for the most part consist of individuals with no experience of power beyond chairing interminable committee meetings.
 
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