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Scientists: Shroud of Turin is REAL

The same principle..

It's obvious you have not even the slightest understanding of 1 million years, let alone a billion.

Got a link to the actual study?

Never mind.. found it.. The appendix thing is nothing to do with convergent evolution.. those animals all had appendixes (thanks to a common ancestor having one) and the article is saying it has evolved (mutated) at least 32 times, suggesting that it is being used for something. That's it.

Abstract
Although the cecal appendix has been widely viewed as a vestige with no known function or a remnant of a formerly utilized digestive organ, the evolutionary history of this anatomical structure is currently unresolved. A database was compiled for 361 mammalian species, and appendix characters were mapped onto a consensus phylogeny along with other gastrointestinal and behavioral characters. No correlation was found between appearance of an appendix and evolutionary changes in diet, fermentation strategy, coprophagia, social group size, activity pattern, cecal shape, or colonic separation mechanism. Appendix presence and size are positively correlated with cecum and colon size, even though this relationship rests largely on the larger size of cecum and colon in taxa that have an appendix. The appendix has evolved minimally 32 times, but was lost fewer than seven times, indicating that it either has a positive fitness value or is closely associated with another character that does. These results, together with immunological and medical evidence, refute some of Darwin's hypotheses and suggest that the appendix is adaptive but has not evolved as a response to any particular dietary or social factor evaluated here.
Click to expand...
 
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They are seperate species lineages.
You do understand this?
You got the same organ evolving independently to form same or similar function.
eye--evolved independently 40- 60 times seperately
Bioluminescence--up to 50 times.
Do you know what convergent evolution is?
Design has zero problem with above.
 
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No mr. du-mass
Im trying to teach you your own therory as apparently you dont know it.
Want to change your statement on covergent evolution and the appendix?
 
rickolasnice said:
The same principle..

It's obvious you have not even the slightest understanding of 1 million years, let alone a billion.
Click to expand...
wings been evolving for a billion years??
dont think so
bug, birds, and bats all had to hit jackpot
 
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Evolution is a function of radiation poisoning(from the sun) causing mutations. If beneficial(organism survives long enough to procreate, said mutation will be passed down to next generation. That is all it is.

And yes, all winged animals that fly did hit jackpot. Almost all mutations are not beneficial.

And going back past 64 million years is pointless as over 99% of organisms went extinct then.
 
methamaniac said:
^


Louis Pasteur balanced the two very well. He shredded the age old Greek idea of spontaneous generation (which contemporaries of his time believed ie Chuck Darwin) and proved Law of Biogenisis.
He intelligently followed his hypothesis that life doesnt come from non life. He tested what he obverved and was proven right. True science.
Click to expand...

Wrong. It is possible to get Organic materials, needed for the formation of aminoacids aso, from nonorganic materials aka the archsoup. And if you believe "scientists" think life was formed spontaneously, you sir are a fucking moron. There are a bunch of theories how DNA or replicatable molecules may have evolved from organic material, one is called HotSpot-Theory or hot-well theory, idk, im translating blindly from german into english.
Still there are some questions like, if something cant come from nothing, where does god come from? Aso.

Buuut thats not important. And its not my point to start another bitchfight between atheism and deism.
I just want people like you, who warp facts like they want them to fit in their world view, to stop with your pseudo scientific bullshit.

Its a matter of faith at last, and it should stay one.

god fucking hell, you ever heard of gods divine plan? get used to it.
 
^
Take a chill pill with some ice water.
Things in a discussion come up.
This thread kinda relates to theism.
So I dont see why you're suprised.

Nobody is saying that building blocks of life dont exist and cant be "got".
I'm stating fact that they dont spontaneously come together to form life.
And they dont. Care to show me how they do in fact come together to form life.
No slight of hand here.

At least you see something had to always exist.
 
lazylazyjoe said:
And yes, all winged animals that fly did hit jackpot. Almost all mutations are not beneficial.
Click to expand...

I am fully aware mutations are almost always non beneficial. This compounds the odds of winning
"jackpot"
At what point does winning something like the bioluminescence jackpot start to seem "fishy"

Up to 50 times in different life forms.

bacteria, fungi, jellyfish, sea worms, sea slugs, clams, squid, roundworms, beetles, isopods, ostracods, copepods, shrimp, centipedes, millipedes, sea stars, crinoids, fish, sharks,
tunicates.....to just name a few.

Radiation magically guided the bioluminescence process in these different life forms.
 
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methamaniac said:
No mr. du-mass
Im trying to teach you your own therory as apparently you dont know it.
Want to change your statement on covergent evolution and the appendix?
Click to expand...

Read the study http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1631068312001960

It is saying that the appendix has evolved in different species, yes, but you are interpreting this sentence wrongly. It is saying that the appendix, which all animals with it got it from a shared ancestor, has evolved regardless of dietary change. They haven't necessarily evolved in the same way, they have just changed and No correlation was found between appearance of an appendix and evolutionary changes in diet, fermentation strategy, coprophagia, social group size, activity pattern, cecal shape, or colonic separation mechanism.

The fact that it has evolved suggests that it is not junk.

That's all the study says. There is no convergent evolution here, sorry.

Do you understand what the study says yet? It didn't evolve separately in different species, they came from a shared ancestor. The study also doesn't say that the changes observed across the species were the same..

Comprende?

As for the wing.. Flightless birds, flying squirrels, etc etc..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_wing_development
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9024659

You forgot about the flying dinosaurs, didn't you?

Here's a transitional fossil that also has the early stages of wing development two for the price of one for your education, huh?

archeopteryx.jpg


Transition from reptilian to bird, with wings that were probably used to glide rather than fly.

Species chills in trees, webbed fingers help species survive long falls.. just like with a flying frog. A slightly different shape of hands, maybe a lengthening of a digit or the growth of the hand, helps it further. Add many many many many many small, subtle changes, etc etc

Bat_mouse_forelimbs.png


If you don't possess the brain power to see how a limb like that of the mouse could, through millions of years and tiny mutations, could lead to the digits lengthening, the bones slightly changing shape and skin growing between them then.. well..

The same bones and components are all still there.
 
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methamaniac said:
I am fully aware mutations are almost always non beneficial. This compounds the odds of winning
"jackpot"
At what point does winning something like the bioluminescence jackpot start to seem "fishy"

Up to 50 times in different life forms.

bacteria, fungi, jellyfish, sea worms, sea slugs, clams, squid, roundworms, beetles, isopods, ostracods, copepods, shrimp, centipedes, millipedes, sea stars, crinoids, fish, sharks,
tunicates.....to just name a few.

Radiation magically guided the bioluminescence process in these different life forms.
Click to expand...

Bioluminescence normally arises from a bacteria within the larger organism.. it's perfectly plausible that these bacteria have a common ancestor..

Convergent evolution exists, though, sure. The octopus eye evolved completely independently to our own.. problem?
 
You dont understand that once a species splits it doesnt get help from that species anymore.
If humans were to start growing wings tomorrow,
it wouldnt have jack sprat to do with bugs, birds, or bats.
Thats why they are rethinking what the appendix does, cause now it seems to be very important (evos used to say junk), so important it evolved in seperate species to perform same function.
(Im going with the hypothetical Mr Dumass)
ie the need for keeping healthy bacteria in gut.
Just like need for flight or bioluminescence or sight----
A need for something doesnt explain the how.
Or the why.
I need superpoweres, doesnt explain how I get superpowers .
If it happened once randomly it would be a miracle. When it happens up to fifty times via randomness/blind luck I dont know if miracle can describe it.
Stop posting supposed wing formation hypotheses Im suppose to use imagination to belief in.
I can take a car engine apart and show you the five major stages I broke it down from,
doesnt have jane schitt to do with how a fan motor randomly made the motor via blind chance.
Or more importantly how the fan motor made itself via randomness in the first darn place
(Srry OP, can/will delete posts if you feel irrelevant)
 
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Urgh you're still not getting it.. the appendix did not evolve independently in separate species..

Really meth.. Fuck me.

THE APPENDIX DID NOT EVOLVE, INDEPENDENTLY IN SEPARATE SPECIES!!!

THE STUDY DOESN'T STATE OR IMPLY THAT.

Reading and comprehension skills going through SO MUCH FAIL right now.

Let me try and explain it in another way.. in 30 species that have an appendix, their appendix, at some point, mutated.. not formed, mutated. They already had the appendix.. ok? It was already there WHEN it evolved through a random mutation. The fact that the appendix changed caused scientists to rethink it being junk.

IT DID NOT FORM 30 DIFFERENT TIMES IN 30 DIFFERENT SPECIES.

Shit.
 
"They found that the appendix seems to make several appearances and a few disappearances throughout the supposed evolutionary history of mammals. Indeed, they found at least 32 events (and possibly as many as 38 events) in which the appendix evolved independently. This means that among the 50 species which currently have a recognizable appendix, most of them evolved it completely independently of the others. Thus, the appendix is not only functional, its function in mammals is so important that it had to evolve independently most of the time! They also found as many as six times when the appendix had to disappear as a result of evolution. The authors conclude

Im not saying anything evolved from scratch.
Forget the appendix its function isnt fully understood as it was recently thought vetigial.
I gave you other example of bioluminescence.
 
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You get that from the study? No? Oh.. where? Creationist site? Of course you did..

The study DOES NOT say that.

Complete and utter fail.

This highlights the complete ignorance and misunderstanding of information by the very people you are getting your information from.. Ignorance being passed from one idiot to another..

Keep spouting regurgitated ignorant bullshit.

It's laughable.
 
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No mr Dumass
You're assuming the appendix is/was vestigial.
Srry, not so much.
Just like you assume well legs are vestigial.
Sorry, they hold the whales huge love machine in place during whale compulation.
Even if some part of imformation is wasting away, doesnt explain how that loss builds new complex parts that must function with other symbiotic fully formed parts to be functional. ( lot more to a wing forming and being able to fly than a bone or skin growing--imagination doesnt make this go away)
You also assume non organic material can spontaneously come together to form an extremely complex 4 bit code to make a complex 3d object via blind chance while completely violating law of biogenisis.
I can see where you're confussion lies.
But nevertheless,
I gave you another example of bioluminescence
to chew on.
Cheers
P.s Assumption is the mother of all fails,
and confussion is her daughter.
 
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I never once said that the appendix is vestigial.. in fact I've known it wasn't since before i knew of your existence.. try again.

That wasn't what you were trying to say at all, though. You were trying to say that the appendix, through convergent evolution, evolved independently in different species..

Fucking fail.

I'm surprised you haven't deleted your account in embarrassment.
 
^^
No, what is suprisingly embarrasing is you're denial of law of biogenisis and acceptance of spontaneous generation to remain in the land off fairies.
 
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